Posts by Don

7 Ἔνδοξοι καὶ περίβλεπτοί τινες ἐβουλήθησαν γενέσθαι, τὴν ἐξ ἀνθρώπων ἀσφάλειαν οὕτω νομίζοντες περιποιήσεσθαι. ὥστε εἰ μὲν ἀσφαλὴς ὁ τῶν τοιούτων βίος, ἀπέλαβον τὸ τῆς φύσεως ἀγαθόν· εἰ δὲ μὴ ἀσφαλής, οὐκ ἔχουσιν οὗ ἕνεκα ἐξ ἀρχῆς κατὰ τὸ τῆς φύσεως οἰκεῖον ὠρέχθησαν.

• ἔνδοξος, δόξα 1. held in esteem or honour, of high repute, Xen., Plat. 2. of things, notable, Aeschin.: —adv. -ξως, hence Sup., ἐνδοξότατα Dem.
• περίβλεπτος. looked at from all sides, admired of all observers, Eur., Xen. περί-βλεπτος, ον

Ἔνδοξοι καὶ περίβλεπτοί = "the famous and admired"

ἐβουλήθησαν 3rd person indicative aorist of βούλομαι.

• usually stronger than ἐθέλω, implying choice or preference:
• (transitive, intransitive)
• to will, wish, be willing, want [+accusative = something]; [+infinitive = to do something]

• (transitive) to mean
  (intransitive) to pretend, claim [+infinitive = to do something]
• (transitive) to prefer [+accusative = something]; [+infinitive = to do something]; often with μᾶλλον ἤ or ἤ: over something else

• γενέσθαι. aorist middle infinitive of γίγνομαι
  • to come into being
  • (of people) to be born
    430 BCE – 354 BCE, Xenophon, Anabasis 1.1: Δαρείου καὶ Παρυσάτιδος γίγνονται παῖδες δύο Darius and Parysatis had two sons born to them.
  • (of things) to be produced
  • (of events) to take place
  • (followed by a predicate) to become
• ἀσφάλειαν ACC security, surety; certainty

I also got a kick out of the article title:

"Dating the Bible"

Oh, no, I wouldn't date the Bible. We're not compatible.

Welcome aboard!

Quote from Joshua

Correction; Ecclesiastes is not the last book of the Old Testament.

This Wikipedia article does a nice job of putting the books of the Bible into a chronological order of when they were written:

Dating the Bible - Wikipedia

Thought could be useful for this thread but also to put things into a historical perspective.

For anyone who wants the Greek:

DCLP/Trismegistos 865216 = LDAB 865216

Quote from Nate

In that regard, we might view KD6 as a refutation of a divine origin story of political authority.

I could see that interpretation.

There is no divine right of kings. It was more like people decided it would be good to have some kind of governing authority.

Quote from Don

To me, the first part to this could be paraphrased, in the **broadest** terms, as "For the sake of having no fear from other people, it was a natural good to institute authority and to be ruled by a government..." Still working on literal translations and the second part.

The second part, again paraphrased in the widest sense, seems to be: From this (ie, instituting authority and government), at one time, procured for oneself the confidence to have no fear of other people.

To me, Lucretius echoes this:

So next

Some wiser heads instructed men to found

The magisterial office, and did frame

Codes that they might consent to follow laws.

For humankind, o'er wearied with a life

Fostered by force, was ailing from its feuds;

And so the sooner of its own free will

Yielded to laws and strictest codes. For since

Each hand made ready in its wrath to take

A vengeance fiercer than by man's fair laws

Is now conceded, men on this account

Loathed the old life fostered by force. 'Tis thence

That fear of punishments defiles each prize

Of wicked days; for force and fraud ensnare

Each man around, and in the main recoil

On him from whence they sprung. Not easy 'tis

For one who violates by ugly deeds

The bonds of common peace to pass a life

Composed and tranquil.

5.1136

And...

Kings began

Cities to found and citadels to set,

As strongholds and asylums for themselves,

And flocks and fields to portion for each man

After the beauty, strength, and sense of each-

For beauty then imported much, and strength

Had its own rights supreme.

5.1105

Little Rocker : your post had some embed code that didn't seem to be working. I hope you don't mind I fixed it.

Quote from Cassius

That link to Aristotle's politics doesn't seem to work but might be useful for comparison.

Aristotle, Politics, Book 3, section 1285a

And

Aristotle, Politics, Book 2, section 1273a

Quote from Cassius

Don if you get a chance to supplement your post here that would also be helpful:

Post

RE: PD06 - Best Translation of PDO6 to Feature at EpicureanFriends.com

Greek text: Usener edition

6

ἕνεκα τοῦ θαρρεῖν ἐξ ανθρώπων ἦν κατὰ φύσιν ἀρχῆς καὶ βασιλείας ἀγαθόν, ἐξ ὧν ἄν ποτε τοῦτο οἷός τʼᾖ παρασκευάζεσθαι.

• Ἕνεκα
  • ἕνεκᾰ
    • (with genitive)
      • on account of, for the sake of, because of
      • with regard to, as far as regards, as for
• τοῦ θαρρεῖν
  • θαρσέω to be of good courage, take courage; confidence, audacity
    • θαρρεῖν present active infinitive
    • C. inf. to believe confidently that, Soph.; also, to make bold or venture to do, Xen.
• ἀρχῆς καὶ βασιλείας

…

Don

August 8, 2023 at 12:26 PM

Good call! Done!

To me, the first part to this could be paraphrased, in the **broadest** terms, as "For the sake of having no fear from other people, it was a natural good to institute authority and to be ruled by a government..." Still working on literal translations and the second part.

By Zeus, this one took forever to track down...

This one is Plut.69.13, also known as F, one of the three best manuscripts (BPF of which we have P and F digitized and available)...

And once again we clearly see αρχησ και βασιλειασ αγαθον

starting at the end of the first line...

.... ἕνεκα τοῦ θα

ρρεῖν ἐξ ανθρώπων ἦν κατὰ φύσιν ἀρχῆς

καὶ βασιλείας ἀγαθόν, ἐξ ὧν ἄν ποτε τοῦτο

οἷός τʼᾖ παρασκευάζεσθαι. and then the rest of that line.

Seems to me there is no doubt that the manuscript tradition clearly includes ἀρχῆς καὶ βασιλείας. I don't see it as a marginal note or some kind of text stuck in somewhere where there's a question as to whether or not to include it. It's right there, in every manuscript, as part of the text.

Now, the only outlier could theoretically be manuscript B, but P and F BOTH have that phrase included as part of the text. It seems to be the Bailey and possibly Usener were being too clever by half?? They knew better than every manuscript??

Here's Usener's commentary from Epicurea on KD6:

It appears he's trying to say that κατὰ φύσιν ἀρχῆς καὶ βασιλείας is "simply" a gloss of what ἐξ ὧν is referring to and must be unnecessary according to his reading. ὧν is the genitive plural of ὅς (genitive because it comes after the preposition ἐξ) which is simply means "who, which, that." So Usener is saying "leadership and lordship" are what "who, which, that" is referring to it seems.

I think it needs to be seen as part of the text and needs to be translated as written.

We're going to leave any actual translation work for tomorrow My work is done here for tonight!

PS:

glossēma: ătis, n., = γλώσσημα, an antiquated or foreign word needing explanation

glossema - Ancient Greek (LSJ)

Quote from Cassius

I have never had much fix on Usener because I have never been able to read any commentary by him that may exist, but I know I don't have a good feel about Bailey's discretion. But in this case we can't pin this on Bailey, correct? I wish we had more access to Usener's general thoughts on Epicurus to see if (or how) he made similar "this can't be right" comments.

Thank you again Don for all you do.

Usener's Epicurea is on Internet Archive....

Hermann Usener Epicurea ( 1887) : Hermann Usener (editor) : Free Download, Borrow, and Streaming : Internet Archive

Epicurea is a collection of texts, fragments and testimonies by Epicurus composed by Hermann Usener in 1887

archive.org

LOL! Granted in *Latin* but it's freely available to peruse.

Okay, here we go...

Plut.69.35 - written 1101-1200 CE (12 century CE)

this one clearly has (2nd line φυσιν αρχησ και βασιλειασ...

codex Parisinus gr. 1759 (14th c.) known as P

Well, would you look at at that... in the middle of the second line...φυσιν αρχησ και βασιλειασ...

Grec. 1758

AND three's a charm!! at the end of the first line... φυσιν αρχησ και βασιλειασ αγαθον

So, I suppose you can editorialize and comment as much as one wants... but the phrase is *consistently* there in the manuscripts.

Quote from Cassius

does exist in the manuscript?

I'll have to check those later. Stay tuned....

Ah! Bailey's commentary...

Quote from Nate

Quote from Don

I don't see anything about kingship or politics in the Greek. Am I missing something?

It's text added by Arrighetti denoted with the <brackets>. I believe I have that version listed in my KD compilation.

Do we know which manuscript Arrigheti says this is from?

Quote from Cassius

Quote from Don

I don't see anything about kingship or politics in the Greek. Am I missing something

I seem to remember that we have been down this road before and Elli had some commentary but we will have to look back.....

Thread

PD06 - Disputes as to correct translation of PD6 - Should it refer to "sovereignty" and "kingship"?

I am informed by Elli P. that there are serious issues with the standard English translation of PD6. The versions we most commonly see are:

Bailey: "To secure protection from men anything is a natural good, by which you may be able to attain this end." (note the strangely-placed comma)

Hicks/Loeb: "In order to obtain security from other men any means whatsoever of procuring this was a natural good."

But Hicks notes a problem: epicureanfriends.com/wcf/attachment/34/

Elli cites this version…

Cassius

November 23, 2017 at 6:40 PM

I don't see anything about kingship or politics in the Greek. Am I missing something?

EDIT: See below for where those words comes from in the manuscripts. I dug into them after posting this post.

Quote from Cassius

Don your breakdown by word reminds me of the "nodictionaries.com" format for Latin. I don't suppose you know of an equivalent for Greek?

I typically defer to Wiktionary or directly to Liddell and Scott on Perseus.

PS. Perseus does something similar with its clickable words in texts but not exactly like nodictionaries. I was unaware on that site.