Posts by Don

Quote from Cassius

As we mentioned tonight in our Wednesday discussion, Diogenes Laertius says that according to Epicurus or the Epicureans:

[118] And even if the wise man be put on the rack, he is happy.

So next week as we continue to discuss these issues we will want to revisit whether we agree with Cicero's expecting that happiness for an Epicurean is something that is always under our control.

Hicks: Even on the rack the wise man is happy.

Yonge: That even if the wise man were to be put to the torture, he would still be happy.

It's important to remember that the original says εὐδαίμονα not "happy." There's a different connotation! It's not "Happy, ha ha" to my understanding. It's more content, well-being, "I did what I can do" satisfaction with life so to speak.

Trivia: στρεβλωθῇ means "stretch on the wheel or rack, to rack, torture, applied to slaves for the purpose of extracting evidence"

Hicks: When on the rack, however, he will give vent to cries and groans.

Yonge: Nor will he groan and howl when he is put to the torture.

So. will the σοφός groan or not?

The original text runs:

[118] κἂν στρεβλωθῇ δ᾽ ὁ σοφός, εἶναι αὐτὸν εὐδαίμονα, [μόνον τε χάριν ἕξειν τὸν σοφόν, καὶ ἐπὶ φίλοις καὶ παροῦσι καὶ ἀποῦσιν ὁμοίως διά τε λόγου184 <καὶ διὰ πράξεως>. ὅτε μέντοι στρεβλοῦται, ἔνθα καὶ μύζει καὶ οἰμώζει.

ὅτε μέντοι στρεβλοῦται, ἔνθα καὶ μύζει καὶ οἰμώζει. There doesn't appear to be a "nor" here:

ὅτε when

μέντοι indeed, however, to be sure

ἔνθα when

μύζει I. (he) murmurs with closed lips, mutters, moans.

(και) οἰμώζει (and) wails aloud, laments

So, Hicks seems to have the upper hand here. This also makes sense in the light of the sage being more affected by the emotions but also "having a sense of well-being" under torture.

Those two Vatican Sayings take on an interesting context with today being Valentine's Day

Thanks, Nate. I was completely unaware of this link. Just found online:

Quote from Cassius

Of course it's easy for anyone to post their own articles at substack

Which brings up an interesting question: Should more of us be posting to substack to increase the epicurean content "outside our Garden"? Or should we use Cassius' new outlet to simply expand the outlet of voices?

Some Substackers post daily! That amazes me. Cassius committing to a regular bi-weekly level of content is daunting!! Cassius has been doing weekly podcast releases for years. His posting a lengthy Substack article biweekly deserves ΚΥΔΟΣ (kudos)! I barely get a quarterly newsletter out at work!!

I read the new article, too. ΚΥΔΟΣ for that as well! Very impressive and highly referenced with quotes. Well done!!

I still really want to break down my Menoikeus material into an actual "study guide" format with maybe less language-specific and more topical "lessons"... but that will, of course, include delving into the actual meanings of key words.

Quote from Cassius

Oh I should be very clear! It is set to be a free account so there is no fee for the subscription required!

Oh! LOL! I wasn't going to pay for it. Now it's just in my feed on Substack! Looking forward to reading it.

PS... Would you consider "guest" articles in the future? Just asking for a friend

Subscribed.

Quote from DavidN

Death being a multifaceted event I find it to be intellectually dishonest for anyone truly interested in philosophy to take the stance that Epicurus writing a will would be hypocritical.

There's a big difference between the process of "dying" and the "state" of "being dead." Epicurus can take pleasure in planning for his legacy while at thesame time being fully aware that his plans may not be followed. He takes pleasure in doing what he is capable of doing.

Quote from Bryan

Giuseppe Casanova version is a bit more filled out

And then you have to ask... Who's closer to the reality of the physical scroll? Does one have better eyesight than the other? Is one more wishful thinking than the other?

The column in question as sketched in the early 1800s. Trying to get something out of line 21 seems well nigh impossible to me:

FYI

PN Search

I didn't realize how that link would display. This is a link to Philodemus's works at Papyri.info.

Much of the library still lies unexcavated.

I've read one theory that says there could be a whole Latin section of the library that remains to be found since it was a custom in libraries then to have a Greek collection and a Latin collection. Although, from my perspective, the Villa was a private collection so it doesn't necessarily have to follow that pattern.

But the possibilities of what remains untranslated and even undiscovered - not to mention what was burned and discarded before they knew what they had! - boggle the mind.

Just to be clear, I certainly meant no disrespect! "They" was just to delineate this forum from the other platform.

Having more participants on both platforms would be a good thing from my perspective.

And, to repeat, I very much appreciate some of the resources posted by and coming from SoFE members. Heck, I subscribe to the newsletter myself.

Sensation, it appears, is literally touch: atoms touching the human body. That seems to serve for sensation, thought, memory, etc.

Is that what you're getting?

Quote from Cassius

death is total absence of *awareness* of motion.

This got me thinking: According to Epicurean philosophy then, what IS awareness? If death is the cessation of sensation, what IS sensation?

Quote from Cassius

Of course we are presumably talking about small bodies here rather than atoms directly.

It seems to me those "small bodies" are exactly atoms.

I think I see where you're going with the rest of that response. Let me think about it and get back to you.

Here's the book on Internet Archive:

T. Lucretius Carus Of the nature of things : in six books. Illustrated with proper and useful notes. Adorned with copper-plates, curiously engraved by Guernier, and others .. : Lucretius Carus, Titus : Free Download, Borrow, and Streaming : Internet…

Text and English prose translation on opposite pages

archive.org

Quote from Cassius

Total absence of speed is death.

I'd suggest "Total absence of *motion* is death."

Plus, those Lucretian citations seem to be discussing the smoothness or roughness of the atoms/seeds/particles themselves. Smooth atoms lead to easier, unimeded motion. Pain seems to be caused, per Lucretius, by jagged, rough atoms tearing and ripping as they move.

Sensation is motion. The cessation of motion is death.

One big problem with *any* Epicurean endeavor in our times is that, in many senses, we're all making it up as we go along. There is no "apostolic succession," no unbroken lineage, no "authority" to say if we're getting it "right"... especially in light of the potential windfall of Epicurean texts now that reading the Herculaneum scrolls is possibly becoming a reality. We're trying to pick our way through an Epicurean labyrinth using a flashlight in the pitch dark. Maybe there's a couple candles lit in a couple locations, but by and large, we don't really have a guide... okay, we have a guide (pleasure) but our instructions on how we should/could/would apply it - in relation to what Epicurus taught - are only in summary with gaps in the paper and pages torn out of the manual.

Here at this forum we have a group of individuals who want to retain their autonomy, independence, individual interpretations (granted, within certain guidelines) with just enough moderation to keep things civil but with no one/way to "interpret" what direction is more "correct" (orthodox?) than another. Note, I don't think there is anyone who can interpret with absolute authority! However, in some ways and at some times, I find the lack of structure, lack of suggested ritual, and lack of a hierarchy frustrating. BUT I realize this is a discussion forum, and it has served - and continues to serve - a vital, unique purpose online. I wouldn't continue to think of myself as "Epicurean" (whatever that means! See below) without it, by Zeus!

The Athenian group seems to be headed in another direction, sponsoring in-person events - to which Cassius has provided content! But they don't have any more claim to "authenticity" than anyone else. The embers of the Epicurean school were kept barely hot enough to give off the faintest glow for centuries. Just because they're in Greece doesn't imbue them with any claim to preserving some lineage. (Fourth leg of the Canon anyone?)

Additionally, it seems (to an outside observer) over at the Society of Friends of Epicurus, they want more structure, more "religiosity," more ritual, more hierarchy. But the insistence of using Latinized Greek words like hegemon, Kyria Doxa, "One way to meleta on..." and using v in Latin like Liber Qvintvs instead of just leader, Principle Doctrine, "One way to meditate on..." and Book Five seems very pretentious and almost cute to me. I freely admit that I like some of the work coming out of SoFE very much, but the insistence to use these unnecessary Hellenisms and idiosyncratic Latin spellings is an impediment to taking it seriously sometimes. There's no need or reason to be exotic, arcane, or mysterious. From all accounts, Epicurus spoke and wrote plainly. Using those exotic-looking Greek and Latin words isn't necessary if you're targeting an English-speaking audience....well, unless you're talking about ataraxia or eudaimonia LOL but I digress.

So, what does any of this have to do with the topic of this thread? Maybe this should have been posted over on the "religion" thread. To bring this back to community building, there doesn't seem one way to do this in the modern world. We do not live in the ancient world. To try and reconstruct the structure of Epicurean communities is a failed endeavor. We simply don't know enough on how they were constructed it seems to me. Pacatus has offered a list of suggestions, some I agree with, others less so. I'm also not sure whether he's offering these as guidelines for *this* specific community or if he feels they should apply to any community calling itself "Epicurean." (I sincerely hope he replies to this rambling post.) There's also no "authority" that could make ANY list of guidelines apply to a group that wants to call itself "THE genuine, authentic Epicurean School." And then there's the issue of marketing. If one "Epicurean" group becomes more well known - a la Massimo Pigliucci's "Stoicism" - do they get to dictate "real" Epicureanism?? Will the real Epicureans, please stand up! Who gets to define who is and who isn't an Epicurean? Who should?

As individuals, we can call ourselves anything we want...but does that make it so? What constitutes an Epicurean community? What constitutes an Epicurean? Would Epicurus recognize the "brand" of "Epicureanism" being "practiced" on this forum, over at SoFE, over in Greece? Before we start laying out who's in and who's out, I think we have to wrestle with: Are any of us actually "in" in the first place...or are we playing a part of our own composition? Have any of us really "earned" the privilege of calling ourselves members of an "Epicurean" community in the first place? Are we really just "hedonists" seeing pleasure as the guide with a thin veneer of Epicurean terminology and the vaguest understanding of what it really meant to be an Epicurean in the ancient world? Granted, in some ways I'm being consciously provocative to encourage discussion - but only in some ways. I find it both frustrating that there's not more structure to this set of practices/beliefs/life philosophy, but I also find comfort in being able to apply a label to a philosophy I *think* I'm trying to structure my life around...even if that label maybe doesn't fit.

In the words of Epicurus, I've "prattled suffice for the present." I certainly don't know if I've added anything to the discussion, but hopefully I've prattled enough to engender further discussion.