Posts by Don

Quote from Cassius

I don't see how that is compatible with implying that everything everyone does is "necessarily' because they see it as leading to greater pleasure for them.

I don't think people need to consciously see all their actions as "leading to greater pleasure for them." It's a fact, as far as I'm concerned. Pleasure is the telos, summum bonum, the end to which all actions and decisions ultimately end. This PD is asking us to acknowledge that fact. It's not like we need to subject every miniscule decision to a hedonic calculus. We can lie to ourselves and try to convince ourselves that "I'm doing this to be virtuous / wise / altruistic / etc." but we're always always trying to lead our lives to greater pleasure for ourselves and away from pain. We can have ideas that lead is astray that try to convince ourselves we're leading our life to greater pleasure, but it's still a lie.

I'm also seeing other translations use reasoning and rationalization even creed:.“If at any time you fail to refer each of your acts to nature's standard, and turn off instead in some other direction when making a choice to avoid or pursue, your actions will not be consistent with your creed.” Strodach (2012)

That seems more in line with my interpretation.

PD25 If at all critical times you do not connect each of your actions to the natural goal of life, but instead turn too soon to some other kind of goal in thinking whether to avoid or pursue something, then your thoughts and your actions will not be in harmony.

εἰ μὴ παρὰ πάντα καιρὸν ἐπανοίσεις ἕκαστον τῶν πραττομένων ἐπὶ τὸ τέλος τῆς φύσεως, ἀλλὰ προκαταστρέψεις εἴτε φυγὴν εἴτε δίωξιν ποιούμενος εἰς ἄλλο τι, οὐκ ἔσονταί σοι τοῖς λόγοις αἱ πράξεις ἀκόλουθοι.

PD25 literally uses εἴτε φυγὴν εἴτε δίωξιν which are the antonyms of each other mentioned above: flee/escape from and pursue/chase. Saint-Andre chooses to use the traditional "avoid" but that doesn't translate the dichotomy of φυγὴν and δίωξιν.

Quote from DaveT

Quote from Don

https://www.alieward.com/ologies/dolorology

this ologies episode on pain was interesting, especially about its bio-psycho-social aspects of pain. Worth a listen.

Thanks. I read the transcript. Just curious, as a "grey hair" how did you come across this podcast?

LOL I've been subscribed to ologies for years. I don't listen to all episodes, but I'll regularly scan through the titles.

Quote from Titus

Quote from Don

I want to note that where Martin Ferguson Smith gives "states" in the translation, the Greek is κατασ̣τήμασι and καταστημάτων, that is katastēmasi and katastēmatōn.

Do you have a recommendation how to translate this section smoothly where Ferguson instead gives "states"? (Let us first discuss states...)

"States" isn't a bad choice as it tries to convey a stable condition rather than something in flux, something moving. I will say I don't like "static" as that to me conveys ossification and rigidity. In the past, I've written "It comes from καθιστημι according to LSJ with connotations like restore, return, set in order, etc. So it's not a static state, it's a return to order (ataraxia and aponia) after the 'excitement' of euphrosyne and khara."

But you asked for a translation of the section. To be specific, κατασ̣τήμασι is a plural dative and τῶν καταστημάτων is the plural genitive of κατάστημα "state, condition; which is related to καθίστημι. Check out that link for the numerous connotations of that word, including bring down to a place; replace, restore; set in order, array, of soldiers; bring into a certain state; etc. This is why translation is so tricky. Words have semantic contexts to a speaker of that language that can be completely missed by simple substitutions from language A to B.

But that's never stopped me before , so here's my crack at the first sentence of the Greek (Oh my! I am rusty!)...

ἡμ[εῖς δὲ ζη]τ̣ῶ̣μεν ἤ̣δ̣η πῶς ὁ βίος ἡμεῖν ἡδὺς γένηται καὶ ἐν τοῖς κατασ̣τήμασι καὶ ἐν ταῖς πράξεσιν.

So, let us now consider what stable conditions and what actions produce the sweet, pleasant life for us.

Yes, Titus . Agreed.

For the record, here's the Greek for that section emphasis added):

Quote

ἡμ[εῖς δὲ ζη]τ̣ῶ̣μεν ἤ̣δ̣η πῶς ὁ βίος ἡμεῖν ἡδὺς γένηται καὶ ἐν τοῖς κατασ̣τήμασι καὶ ἐν ταῖς πράξεσιν. περὶ δὲ τῶν καταστημάτων πρῶτον εἴπωμεν, ἐκεῖνο τηροῦντες, τὸ δὴ ὅτι τῶν ὀχλούντων τὴν ψυχὴν παθῶν ὑπεξαιρεθέντων τὰ ἥδοντα αὐτὴν ἀντιπαρέρχεται. ⁦ vac. 1⁩ τὰ οὖν ὀχλοῦντα τίνα [ἐστ]ί̣ν; ⁦ vac. 1⁩ φόβοι μέν̣ [εἰσιν] [ὁ] μ̣ὲν ἐκ θεῶν, ⁦ vac. 1⁩ ὁ [δ' ἀπὸ] [θ]α̣νάτου, ⁦ vac. 1⁩ ὁ δ' ἀπ' [ἀλγη-]...

I want to note that where Martin Ferguson Smith gives "states" in the translation, the Greek is κατασ̣τήμασι and καταστημάτων, that is katastēmasi and katastēmatōn. Diogenes is talking about the good old katastematic and kinetic pleasures here. He doesn't use kinetic but instead πράξεσιν praxesin from πρᾶξῐς (prâxĭs): "act; action; activity; deed; doing" The word used by Epicurus κίνησις kinēsis is motion, opposed to "rest" (στάσις). I would say opposed to "states."

This goes along with my contention that the katastematic pleasure of ataraxia and maybe aponia is achieved by rooting out these "fears —of the gods, of death, and of [pains]— and, besides [these], desires that [outrun] the limits fixed by nature." These are what gives humans dread and anxiety about the big picture of their life. Will they still have some anxiety about everyday things? Sure, I think so, but ripping out those fundamental existential disturbing fears provides a solid foundation upon which to build one's life.

I'm curious to compare the arrangement of the text in the book to this:

DCLP/Trismegistos 865216 = LDAB 865216

Quote from Cassius

Up to now the version at the link below has been the best available to us:

That's what I like about this March 2026 publication. It's legit from MFS himself along with his notes and intro.

The whole Untroubled Substack feed looks worthwhile to explore. I'm not sure who the author is, but he praises Emily Austin's book so

Book Review: Emily Austin’s Living For Pleasure

If you read one book on Epicurean ethics, make it this one

open.substack.com

FYI

"Fragments of Diogenes' work were discovered in 1884-1889. Further investigations were inaugurated by Martin Ferguson Smith in 1968-1973 and continued during British and German-led surveys (1974-2017). The number of known pieces of the inscription more than tripled, from 88 in the 19th century to 305. This translation, the first in English to include all the latest discoveries and research, is intended for all who are interested in philosophy, in the intellectual and cultural history of the Greek world under the Roman Empire, and in the story of an impressive and moving human document."

I look forward to digging into the text, but I really like the playlist/section titles! Well played!

https://www.tabedizioni.it/web/content/462840

FREE DOWNLOAD from Martin Ferguson Smith

Epicurean Ethics: The Primary Sources

What to Read and Recommended Translations

open.substack.com

I came across this Substack article and it looked generally like a good list of sources, including...

Urbi et Orbi

www.tabedizioni.it

"Just this year (March 2026), however, the leading scholar on Diogenes, Martin Ferguson Smith, released the most up to date English translation of the whole text, available free online under the title Urbi et Orbi: The Epicurean Inscription and Prescription of Diogenes of Oinoanda." 🎉

This should become our definitive version of the Oinoanda inscription translation. Apologies if this has already been noted. This is a Big Deal! The downloaded PDF looks great!

Quote from Cassius

This forum is here for those who take ideas seriously and want to make up their own minds about things.

Well said, and, as always, thanks for creating this corner of the Internet in the first place, Cassius

Quote from Cassius

with the problem of finding it being that Usener uses "honorable" and "excellence" and "noble."

I just searched for spit

Quote from Cassius

I am not quickly finding the Usener number

U181

Epicurus: Fragments - translation

And U512

Epicurus: Fragments - translation (3)

Quote from wbernys

He says "And he considers it better to be rationally unfortunate than irrationally fortunate, since it is better for a beautiful choice to have the wrong results than for an ugly choice to have the right results just by chance." (Peter Saint-Andre). This seem to pain the picture of personal intentions mattering more than actual consequences.

To me, that section doesn't point to intention but rather taking an active role in ones choices and rejections versus not letting chance rule what happens to you.

Quote from Matteng

we still live in an material universe without divinity or afterlife….

Well said. THAT for me is the most basic fundamental doctrine in Epicurus' physics. That's the foundation stone upon which fear of the gods and anxiety of punishment after death are dispelled. THAT'S the non-negotiable point for me. Epicurus fleshes out that point, but that's what it gets built on and what it comes back to.

Scientists can argue the details of string theory, quantum loop gravity, quantum physics, and the rest. But Matteng concisely stated the foundation.

Thread

PD24 - Commentary and Translation of PD 24

Principal Doctrine 24 (PD 24) is one of the more convoluted doctrines with multiple phrases and conjunctions. I would like to provide some commentary and break the doctrine down into manageable words and phrases for everyone to get a more coherent understanding of what Epicurus was communicating. You may also want to take a look at this doctrine’s page on the Epicurus Wiki:

First the original text:

[…]

Now, let’s break it down before we put it all back together. I’ll provide a (mostly) literal…

Don

September 2, 2020 at 11:56 PM

On the 4th leg, I wanted to bring up this extended thread we had awhile ago on PD24. It goes a little off track at the end, but the first part is on point

(Full disclosure: I have not read Hiram's essay linked above yet.)

Dolorology (PAIN) with Dr. Rachel Zoffness — alie ward

PAIN. What is it? Where does it come from? And how can we hurt less? Which hurts more, a kidney stone or heartache? Why does chronic pain persist? Can we turn…

www.alieward.com

Not sure where to post, but this ologies episode on pain was interesting, especially about its bio-psycho-social aspects of pain. Worth a listen.

Quote from Brandenoz

Nietzsche continues to stick around

It's the moustache.

Quote from Cassius

I think a lot of the commercial appeal is 1 "Thus Spake Zarathustra" is a cool name, and (2) there's a market who want to say that they have read the philosopher who said "God is dead."

Quote from Cassius

There's a coolness factor to things like "what doesn't kill us makes us stronger" that's about as far as most people get.

Agreed on those, too.

You can buy Nietzsche and have him on your bookshelf and make people think you're countercultural.