Posts by Don

Herodotus, 10.38 (Hicks)

Next, we must by all means stick to our sensations, that is, simply to the present impressions whether of the mind or of any criterion whatever, and similarly to our actual feelings, in order that we may have the means of determining that which needs confirmation and that which is obscure.

"Ἔτι τε44 τὰς αἰσθήσεις δεῖ πάντως τηρεῖν καὶ ἁπλῶς τὰς παρούσας ἐπιβολὰς εἴτε διανοίας εἴθ᾽ ὅτου δήποτε τῶν κριτηρίων, ὁμοίως δὲ καὶ τὰ ὑπάρχοντα παθη, ὅπως ἂν καὶ τὸ προσμένον καὶ τὸ ἄδηλον ἔχωμεν οἷς σημειωσόμεθα.

Quote from Cassius

I can't confirm the Greek, but, for example, it seems important in this passage that the phrasing would be "perceptIBLE" (able to be perceived) rather than "that which has already been perceived.

That passage doesn't seem to do what you want. I read it as:

τὰς παρούσας ἐπιβολὰς "the present impressions"

παρούσας is "of things, to be by, i.e. ready or at hand; to be present in or at." These are the impressions of the mind being experienced. So, it seems to me to be neither "perceptIBLE" (able to be perceived)" nor "that which has already been perceived" but what is present at the moment, at least in this particular passage.

τὰ ὑπάρχοντα παθη (ta hyparkhonta pathē) "the actual feelings"

ὑπάρχοντα is "to be already in existence; to be laid down, to be taken for granted." We need to take our feelings - pathē - of pleasure/pain into account.

This passage says to me we need to use what we have experienced or are experiencing to determine the nature of that which needs additional evidence or that which is unseen or not evident to the senses.

In deference to the author, I'm sure they had nothing to do with the illustration. Some Guardian staff artist used a composite of Getty Images they found. Sloppy. At least it wasn't AI??

Blood, sweat and testes: rich men have always wanted to live for ever

Today’s dubious anti-ageing treatments look at lot like those of history. Just look at Louis XIII or Pope Innocent VIII

www.theguardian.com

The illustrator used a bust of Epicurus for an article about wanting to live forever throughout history. I can't think of a more inappropriate historical figure to use for an illustration than Epicurus

Quote from Cassius

I'm still not clear at all as to the original intent of the statement - as to how broadly it was to be applied.

Only way to find that out is to read Faulkner's Wild Palms (also published as If I Forget Thee, O Jerusalem)

If I forget thee, Jerusalem : the wild palms | WorldCat.org

'Between grief and nothing I will take grief'. In New Orleans in 1937, a man and woman embark on a headlong flight into the wilderness of illicit passion,…

search.worldcat.org

Quote from Publisher's description

Summary:'Between grief and nothing I will take grief'. In New Orleans in 1937, a man and woman embark on a headlong flight into the wilderness of illicit passion, fleeing her husband and the temptations of respectability. In Mississippi ten years earlier, a convict sets forth across a flooded river, risking his one chance at freedom to rescue a pregnant woman. From these separate stories Faulkner composes a symphony of deliverance and damnation, survival and self-sacrifice, a novel in which elemental danger is juxtaposed with fatal injuries of the spirit.-Publisher's description

See also...

If I Forget Thee, Jerusalem - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

...when she became not then half of memory became not and if I become not then all of remembering will cease to be.—Yes, he thought, between grief and nothing I will take grief. Harry Wilbourne, in (Ch. 9) "Wild Palms"; p. 324 (Faulkner's italics)

The full context appears to be about forgetting someone you care about. The grief is better than the nothing, than the absence of the person's memory. I could easily think of contexts that Epicurus might lean toward that sentiment.

[ U213 ]

Plutarch, That Epicurus actually makes a pleasant life impossible, 28, p. 1105D: If then, "the memory of a dead friend is pleasant on every count" as Epicurus said, we need no more to make us see the great delight that they renounce when, although they suppose that they can receive and capture the apparitions and likenesses of dead companions {in dreams?} – images that have neither mind nor feeling – they do not think they will ever again meet those friends themselves, or ever again see a dear father or dear mother or perhaps a gentle wife, and have not even the hope of such company.

Cf. Seneca, Letters to Lucilius, 63.7: Thinking of departed friends is to me something sweet and mellow.

Welcome aboard!

You'll find a lot of discussion around here on the practical application of Epicurean philosophy along with deep dives into the finer points of the philosophy. The forum has something for everyone with a curiosity about the topic.

One point I've come to appreciate over the years - especially though Cassius's perspective - is that the the ethics don't stand alone. Epicurus built his philosophy from the ground up, so the ethics is firmly grounded on the physics and the canonic faculties of pleasure/pain, sensations, and anticipations (although there's still plenty of discussion on what that last one entails!). Epicurus stands firm that we live in a completely material universe, governed by natural forces. That for me is the foundation, the starting point.

Have fun! Look forward to your contributions to the conversation.

Welcome aboard, Eric! I think you'll find this a welcoming community. I, too, tend not to "proclaim" my Epicureanism much outside this forum, other than to occasionally mention topics to my wife in general conversation on walks or while enjoying time at a local brewery. This is a great outlet for discussion, research, questions, etc.

Yeah, I'm probably not going to read the book. However, "not taste of death" only seems to occur in the three canonical synoptic gospels: Mark, Matthew, and Luke (in that chronological order):

Genesis 1:1 (KJV)

"Not" AND "taste" AND "death" primary search results are listed below along with dictionary aides, FAQs, and Lexiconc.

www.blueletterbible.org

It's Jesus failed prophecy that the end of the world was coming before some in his audience died. That didn't happen. Bart Ehrman had a great podcast episode on this failed apocalyptic prophecy recently:

The Gospel of Thomas uses the phrase, but it's so cryptic that anyone can say it means almost anything. The only full manuscript we have of Thomas is much younger than the canonical and in Coptic. There are earlier Greek fragments, but only fragments.

The "death taste" occurs in Logion 1, 18, 19, and 85, and is again so cryptic that it's like a Rohrschach inkblot: "What do you see?"

So, from the description, I'd agree with Titus that Hannah was...creative, maybe bordering on speculative fiction.

Additional resources:

The true words of Thomas (Interactive Coptic-English gospel of Thomas)

This groundbreaking translation of the "gospel of Thomas" follows the Coptic to the letter and reveals dozens of new words and meanings,…

www.academia.edu

The Gospel of Thomas Collection - Translations and Resources

Gospel of Thomas - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

What are your thoughts on this revision?

Quote

The Epicurean will be moral as well as prudent. Morality and prudence directs us to try to minimise harm to others. It is imprudent to engineer sex by force, or by offering a quid pro quo to someone who finds you unattractive, as the subsequent experience is bound to be exceedingly unpleasant for them and detrimental to the perpetrator in the long run. It is imprudent to raise false expectations of permanence in another to obtain sex for a short run. It is imprudent to try to control another person’s behaviour while enjoying a secret freedom oneself. It is imprudent to turn a spouse into a wage slave or a domestic servant.

From my perspective, substituting "wrong" with "imprudent" puts a different spin on each of those behaviors. Those things are imprudent in that there may very well be negative consequences for the perpetrator. The perpetrator's reputation will most likely be negative, so social consequences. The wife (and let's be honest, the majority of perpetrators in these scenarios is male!) will likely become angry (and, imho, rightfully so) and lash out in unexpected and harmful ways. It is simply prudent to treat people honestly, justly, and honorably. As the old saying goes: What goes around, comes around.

btw, I'm using the definition of "imprudent" as "unwise, by failing to consider the likely results of your actions."

Note that I'm not saying that I personally find any of those behaviors any less repugnant by substituting "imprudent", but calling them "wrong" doesn't seem the best way to convey, Epicureanly-speaking, why they aren't generally optimal behaviors.

Nice find, Bryan ! Thanks for sharing.

And I agree, Cassius , those two share some common themes.

I tried to compare the Latin of the two, but Petronius doesn't seem (to my untrained eye) to have cribbed from Lucretius (Lucretius Born c. 99 BC - Died c. 55 BC (aged c. 44); Petronius Born c. 27 AD - Died c. 66 AD (aged c. 38–39)), although I'm sure Petronius knew Lucretius's poem. Maybe it was a Zeitgeist thing with the images that Petronius uses? Or maybe he was riffing on De Rerum Natura to show off his erudition? Here is the beginning of each poem/section:

Lucretius
Et quo quisque fere studio devinctus adhaeret
aut quibus in rebus multum sumus ante morati
atque in ea ratione fuit contenta magis mens,
in somnis eadem plerumque videmur obire:
causidici causas agere et componere leges,
induperatores pugnare ac proelia obire,
nautae contractum cum ventis degere bellum,
nos agere hoc autem et naturam quaerere rerum
semper et inventam patriis exponere chartis.

Petronius
Somnia quae mentes ludunt volitantibus umbris,
non delubra deum nec ab aethere numina mittunt,
sed sibi quisque facit. Nam cum prostrata sopore
urget membra quies et mens sine pondere ludit,
quidquid luce fuit tenebris agit.

Quote from Cassius

Don any comment on the "evil-doer"?

"Evil-doer" in the Greek is how Bailey is translating ἀδικοῦντα "one who is committing an injustice." Epicurus Wiki uses "wrongdoer." Saint-Andre simply uses " to commit an injustice." The word is from ἄδικος (ádikos, “wrong, unjust”) = ἄ "not" + δικος "just"

So, Bailey has "It is hard for an evil-doer to escape detection, but to be confident that he will continue to escape detection indefinitely is impossible."

Saint-Andre has "It is easy to commit an injustice undetected, but impossible to be sure that you have escaped detection."

Epicurus Wiki (EW) has "For a wrongdoer to be undetected is difficult; and for him to have confidence that his concealment will continue is impossible."

I do not know where Saint-Andre is getting it is easy! The word is δύσκολον which means difficult, troublesome, etc. Bailey and EW have it correct.

Quote from Matteng

Would someone who follows Epicurus' teachings commit injustices if they were never seen?

I would comment with VS7...

7. It is easy to commit an injustice undetected, but impossible to be sure that you have escaped detection.

ἀδικοῦντα λαθεῖν μὲν δύσκολον, πίστιν δὲ λαβεῖν ὑπὲρ τοῦ λαθεῖν ἀδύνατον.

PS. I'm crossing out easy because that isn't what the Greek says. It's *difficult* to commit an introduce undetected, but impossible to be sure that you've escaped detection.

Diogenes Laertius, Lives of Eminent Philosophers, BOOK I, Prologue

In the Italian school the order of succession is as follows: first Pherecydes, next Pythagoras, next his son Telauges, then Xenophanes, Parmenides,11 Zeno of Elea, Leucippus, Democritus, who had many pupils, in particular Nausiphanes [and Naucydes], who were teachers of Epicurus.

...

ethics, as we have said, started with Socrates; while dialectic goes as far back as Zeno of Elea. In ethics there have been ten schools: the Academic, the Cyrenaic, the Elian, the Megarian, the Cynic, the Eretrian, the Dialectic, the Peripatetic, the Stoic, and the Epicurean.

Diogenes Laertius, Lives of Eminent Philosophers, BOOK IX, Chapter 5. ZENO OF ELEA

Aristotle says that Zeno was the inventor of dialectic, as Empedocles was of rhetoric

Quote from Cassius

So the proper characterization of Zeno is despoiler.or some similar synonym....

It appears πολυφθόρος can mean either "utterly destroyed or ruined" (taken in the passive sense) or "destroying many, fraught with death or ruin"

Quote from Cassius

I wonder if we should not consider the Eleatics to be under the umbrella of the "Logicians" in this passage.

DL10.8: the Dialecticians despoilers... καὶ τοὺς διαλεκτικοὺς πολυφθόρους, ...

https://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/morph?l=dialektikou%5Cs&la=greek&can=dialektikou%5Cs0&prior=tou%5Cs&d=Perseus:text:1999.01.0257:book=10:chapter=1&i=1#lexicon

"ἡ διαλεκτική (sc. τέχνη) dialectic, discussion by question and answer, invented by Zeno of Elea"

Orchestral:

Guitar:

Quote from Robert

So...maybe time to get started on the Epicurean songbook!

I'll offer my attempt at an Epicurean hymn from 3(!) years ago, sung to the tune of "Come Thou Fount of Every Blessing" which I originally heard while attending a Unitarian Universalist church:

Thanks, Joshua . I'd also include p.73 in that.

I continue to stand by my insistence that "bread and water" referred not to ascetism but to ordinary, everyday experience. Take pleasure in the quotidian. When luxury is available, take pleasure in that, too. Emily Austin gets it right, in my opinion.

Luke Ranieri included this in his latest newsletter:

Quote

As for Latin and Greek, here is a new Ancient Greek idiomatic expression I found while perusing LSJ:

ἐπ’ αὐτὸν ἥκεις τὸν βατῆρα τῆς θύρᾱς "you arrived right on the threshold of the door" (attributed to Attic comic playwright Amipsias)

It's Latin equivalent is tetigistī acū "you have touched it with a needle" (first attested by comic playwright Plautus), and these both mean "you hit the nail on the head."

Polyenphysiszodeism^TM

Well played, Joshua .