Posts by Don

  • What fears does modern science remove, as Epicurean physics did in antiquity?

    On a slightly more serious note, inspired by Joshua 's post, I would offer that the paranormal and pseudoscience feed an answer to the question many seem to ask: Is this all there is?

    That question presupposes there's something "less than" about our physical, natural, material universe. It's somehow "not enough". There has to be more than just this or nothing has any meaning.

    For me, Epicurus (and I would offer, even the general secular and scientific perspective writ large) has an answer to that longing that "something more" in that it's not needed. The magnificence and multifarious nature of the universe is enough to feel awe and wonder.

    It brings to mind: "since such a course is of service to all who take up natural science, I, who devote to the subject my continuous energy and reap the calm enjoyment of a life like this, have prepared for you just such an epitome and manual of the doctrines as a whole."

    Gaze on Yosemite Valley, stare up at the stars at night, breathe in the air deep in the woods or the salt-spray off the ocean while standing on a cliff. Try telling me than that "Is this all there is?" Yes, this is it -- and *it* is magnificent!

  • What if Kyriai Doxai was NOT a list?

    For ease of reference, here's the post above with the 1739 information and texts link:

    Post

    RE: What if Kyriai Doxai was NOT a list?

    Following up on a post of mine from Cassius' thread about PDs in narrative form on a list of 44 PDs in a 1739 Greek/Latin translation:

    I used a 1739 Greek with Latin translation to compare with the text at Perseus Digital Library:

    1739: https://hdl.handle.net/2027/nn…id=27021597768674761-1400

    Perseus Greek (DL, Book 10): http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/h…3Abook%3D10%3Achapter%3D1

    Perseus English (DL, Book 10): http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/h…3Abook%3D10%3Achapter%3D1

    I used the Greek text to compare…
    Don
    August 2, 2023 at 12:00 AM

    There are textual variations. The book is an edition in Latin and Greek of Diogenes Laertius.

    Here's the beginning of that Book 10:

    https://babel.hathitrust.org/cgi/pt?id=nnc1.0021060738&seq=1203

    It's listed in this bibliography of Laertius:

    https://www.ontologia.co/pdf/diogenes-laertius-editions.pdf

  • What if Kyriai Doxai was NOT a list?

    File

    Kyria Doxai Comparison

    This sheet grew out of the interest to understand Kyriai Doxai (Principal Doctrines) as a text and not a "list."
    Don
    June 4, 2025 at 11:03 PM

    Check out the link above. The file was too big to add here as an attachment.

    Using the posts above, especially the one on the 1739 text with 44 "doctrines," I've composed a spreadsheet comparing the various texts that contain sections of Principal Doctrines.

    I've sorted the PDF spreadsheet to show the 1739 text and not the usual translation. It's a bit of any eye opener. As for the English, I've used a combo of Hicks, Saint-Andre, and Google Translate to allow me not to get attached to one translation.

    Thoughts welcomed.

  • Epicurus' Hierarchy of Needs

    Quote from Cassius

    This is probably a good time for a reminder that the only authoritative explanation (so far as I recall at the moment - are there others?) of the natural/necessary classification (aside from the scholium in DL which is of uncertain source) is that of Torquatus in On Ends

    It is in the letter to Menoikeus.

    Also, Menoikeus 130:

    πολυτελεῖ διαίτῃ “expensive/extravagant/costly/luxuious way of living”

  • Epicurus' Hierarchy of Needs

    Quote from Rolf

    Would you say “natural”, “necessary”, and “empty” are suitable terms to use?

    Well, if it was good enough for Epicurus...:)

    PS. Okay, let me add that "Yes, I know Epicurus didn't use “natural”, “necessary”, and “empty” because he spoke Greek." But those translations are about as close to literal as one gets for φυσικαὶ, ἀναγκαῖαι, and κεναί.

  • Epicurus' Hierarchy of Needs

    Quote from Cassius
    Quote from Don

    I also don't think it's perfect, but I like the idea that the word conveys that there is nothing wrong with enjoying things "above and beyond" what are considered necessities.

    You think so? I would have said that "extravagant" carries strong negative connotations.

    One of the reasons I'm fine with Dr. Austin's decision is that it takes back or reclaims that "negative connotation" and turns it on its head. That negative connotation of "extravagant" strikes me as potentially Puritanical. IF "extravagant" desires do no harm to the person or anyone else and IF they do not pose an undue burden to acquire or fulfill, why not indulge in them? Extravagant, indulgent, why not? One definition of the word is "excessive,
    going beyond a normal or acceptable limit in degree or amount." (my emphasis added) "Acceptable" to whom? Someone else telling you you're living extravagantly? Mind your own business ^^ Now, do I think there's something to the idea of "conspicuous consumption"? "the spending of money on and the acquiring of luxury commodities (goods and services) specifically as a public display of economic power—the income and the accumulated wealth—of the buyer. " (Wikipedia) Now, in the Austin context, I would not call that "extravagant." I would call that trying to fulfill an empty desire. But if something brings you pleasure and meets the criteria of no harm/no undue burden to acquire, I don't think Epicurus opposes that "extravagance."

  • Epicurus' Hierarchy of Needs

    Quote from Rolf

    You know, this has me thinking: At least for those of us who are already familiar with the philosophy, using the abbreviations NN, NU, and UU would be a lot cleaner and clearer. :/

    I can appreciate your desire for conciseness, but I'm not a fan of in-group abbreviations. I don't even like referring to Epicurean philosophy as EP. I would also offer that the term "unnecessary" doesn't actually in at least one exposition of the categories of desires, that in the letter to Menoikeus:

    Quote

    Furthermore, on the one hand, there are the natural desires; on the other, the 'empty, fruitless, or vain ones.' And of the natural ones, on the one hand, are the necessary ones; on the other, the ones which are only natural; then, of the necessary ones: on the one hand, those necessary for eudaimonia; then, those necessary for the freedom from disturbance for the body; then those necessary for life itself. (This is my own literal translation)

    In this categorization, Epicurus is only concerned with natural (φυσικαὶ), necessary (ἀναγκαῖαι), and empty (κεναί) categories. I would still contend that those "necessary for life itself" are those essentials at the base of Maslow's hierarchy of needs: food, water, shelter, sleep, air, etc.

  • Epicurus' Hierarchy of Needs

    Quote from Lowri834

    This is an alternative to the triangle format for Maslow's Hierarchy of Needs. Maybe Basic Necessities, Friendship, Prudence or specific items from canon in the boat and the sail or multiple sails could be other aspects.

    I like the little boat idea/metaphor, especially in light of παιδείαν δὲ πᾶσαν, μακάριε, φεῦγε τἀκάτιον ἀράμενος : Set sail in your own little boat, blessed one, free from all indoctrination. (Usener 163) τἀκάτιον (takation) literally means a light boat, the diminutive of ἄκατος (akatos). The acatium (ἀκάτιον) was especially adapted for fast sailing with light winds.

    That said, I'm not sure how to label the parts. I wouldn't advocate for necessary, natural, unnecessary because those are classifications of desires. Maybe Prudence is the sail which steers the ship? I'll have to think on that.

  • Epicurus' Hierarchy of Needs

    Quote from Rolf

    I use the word "extravagent" as it's the word Emily Austin uses in her book to describe natural but unnecessary desires. I agree it's not the perfect word though - if I recall correctly, Austin doesn't think it is either.

    Agreed. It's not perfect by any means, but I remember Dr. Austin saying in our interview episodes that there was NO WAY her editors were going to let her use "natural and necessary" and "natural but no necessary" over and over again the book ^^ She had to come up with something.

    I also don't think it's perfect, but I like the idea that the word conveys that there is nothing wrong with enjoying things "above and beyond" what are considered necessities.

  • Daily life of ancient Epicureans / 21st Century Epicureans

    Quote from Cassius
    Quote from Patrikios

    I found that studying the Key Doctrines in short groups of 3 or 4 related doctrines was more beneficial to focus on a key topic.

    Don do we or you have a page or listing somewhere that breaks the PDs down not by number but by related paragraph and/or topic? I know we've discussed this many times but i am not sure I have seen a polished and formatted version. I am sure that there are many possible divisions but we might as well be helpful to people and suggest one or two.

    Good question. Surely somewhere on this forum.

    Try this thread:

  • Episode 282 - TD13 - Is A Trifling Pain A Greater Evil Than The Worst Infamy?

    The wise one will also pay just enough attention to their reputation as to avoid being looked down upon. (DL 10.120)

    Hicks: He will pay just so much regard to his reputation as not to be looked down upon.

    Yonge: He will show a regard for a fair reputation to such an extent as to avoid being despised;

    Original text: εὐδοξίας ἐπὶ τοσοῦτον προνοήσεσθαι,

    εὐδοξίας good repute

    τοσοῦτον so far as

    Provide for good repute for as far as...

    ἐφ᾽ ὅσον μὴ καταφρονήσεσθαι:

    καταφρονέω look down upon, think slightly of

    So, the translations are accurate.

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