Posts by Don

Quote from Cassius

Looks like it is Lucian I am remembering, so the issue would be the word in Lucian's Greek --

Lucian, section 47:

τὰς Ἐπικούρου κυρίας δόξας, τὸ κάλλιστον, ὡς οἶσθα, τῶν βιβλίων καὶ κεφαλαιώδη περιέχον τῆς τἀνδρὸς σοφίας τὰ δόγματα
So, you're correct. Lucian specifically uses κυρίας δόξας kurias doxas, simply the inflected form of Kuriai Doxai, and, of course, we have the title in the list in DL as Godfrey points out. Plus it works make sense for DL to include that book just like he included the letters.,

Quote from Cassius

It seems to me that i have read it theorized that they were never numbered in the ancient world at all, and that it was read like a book, like the letter to menoeceus, and in fact what we consider the 40 doctrines may well be one of the books of Epicurus that Cicero refers to as -- gosh what was it -- the "celestial book?" This is definitely something that i've always wanted to pursue because I think the numbering is a MAJOR problem for interpretation, especially for what we consider to be 3 and 4, which I think ought all to be read together and probably closely in context of 2. Splitting them apart really adds to the problem with making sense of them

Now THAT might be an interesting project: to reconstruct the "book" of the Principle Doctrines... Or would that be deconstruct the "numbered list"?

Quote from JJElbert

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The Greek/Latin edition of 1692 by Marcus Meibomius divided each of the ten books into paragraphs of equal length, and progressively numbered them, providing the system still in use today.

Via Wikipedia.

So it looks like the length of the paragraph was the determining factor. I know this is the case with the Letter to Menoikeus because there's no rhyme or reason with the breaks for the verses/paragraphs/settings.

Quote from JJElbert

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Beginning with Usener, the doctrines are enumerated as forty individual sayings.

http://wiki.epicurism.info/Principal_Doctrines/

Wow! So not until the late 1800s? That's very interesting. Before that they were just the Principal Doctrines with no number attached then it looks like?

If you look at the end of the Arundel manuscript of Diogenes Laertius, you don't see any numbers... Just the text

http://www.bl.uk/manuscripts/Vi…l_ms_531_fs001r

I don't know when the traditional numbering started.

Any way you can use one of the text versions posted to Internet Archive? It would probably require some editing but might include more options?

I was considering doing an interlinear of the Principal Doctrines or the Letter to Menoikeus until I remembered the Epicurus Wiki did a good job on both: http://wiki.epicurism.info/Main_Page/ I'll keep working on my in-depth analysis of the Letter and possibly integrate some interlinear text there.

I am so excited too see how this project shakes out! I see some applications for myself! Thanks for being the trailblazer, Joshua !!

Quote from JJElbert

For my purposes I want it in print, so the online version will likely have to be a PDF.

PDF is a great choice. Easily viewable online and also printable.

The only caveat I'd provide is that an interlinear can still only give one translation for a word. In today's Lucretius Today conversation (yet to be posted) I brought up the multiple connotations of pedetemptim. Having access to that level of interpretation would be very helpful. I'm thinking specifically of Jonathan Star's edition of the Tao Te Ching: https://www.penguinrandomhouse.com/books/292570/t…-jonathan-star/

Well, this makes me think I should get back to my in depth commentary and translation of the Letter to Menoikeus. That's a snap compared to 6 books of De Rerum Natura.

This is the only one I found from a quick search:

https://nodictionaries.com/lucretius/de-rerum-natura-1/1-49

THAT is an ambitious undertaking, but I can think of no one who is better suited to tackle the poetic aspect of Lucretius than you.

Have you verified there's not an interlinear out there?

I will say I have an interlinear Beowulf that I enjoy perusing from time to time.

Quote from JJElbert

After all, Vatican Sayings no. 52 doesn't say that friendship dances around the block, or down to the social club and back; "Friendship dances around the world bidding us all to awaken to the recognition of happiness."

Hey, how do I give two thumbs up?

PS There we go!

The closest Epicurus ever gets to an "absolute" is his basis for just actions in society: to neither harm nor be harmed. But this isn't an absolute decree from some higher supernatural authority. It's simply his proposed "natural" baseline agreement that a community needs to function.

Quote from Dubitator314

an Epicurean ethical action?

Another quick thought... I would be careful about that phrasing. If you're equating an "ethical action" with a "virtuous action", remember that virtue in Epicureanism is instrumental to pleasure and not an end in itself. Why do we practice virtuous acts? Because they bring us pleasure.

Okay, now I'll step back and let others chime in.

Quote from Dubitator314

For example, if a person gets pleasure from giving to a battered woman's shelter, would that be an an Epicurean ethical action?

Yep (from my perspective)

For me, it goes back to Epicurus's assertion in his Principle Doctrine 5:

"It is not possible to live a pleasurable life without the traits of wisdom, morality, and justice; and it is impossible to live with wisdom, morality, and justice without living pleasurably. When one of these is lacking, it is impossible to live a pleasurable life. It is not possible to live a pleasurable life without the traits of wisdom, morality, and justice; and it is impossible to live with wisdom, morality, and justice without living pleasurably. When one of these is lacking, it is impossible to live a pleasurable life. "

It's also practical. If I'm "altruistic" (or just a nice person) that makes it more likely or at least probable that I will be seen favorably by others. If I need a favor or assistance in the future, I'll be more likely to receive it if people around me see me that way. That makes for the possibility of more pleasure for me in the future.

I'll stop there for now. I'm sure others will have thoughts too.

Looking for info and found this:

https://www.persee.fr/doc/dhs_0070-6760_2003_num_35_1_2587

And I believe Adams is referencing Jean-François de La Harpe: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jean-Fran…rpe?wprov=sfla1

There are numerous "peace and safety" references in EaHP, but this will do to illustrate my point. Citation 117 simply points to Lucian's Alexander the Oracle-monger, 25:44-46. 118 just points to I Thessalonians 5:3. That's it. And I believe most of not all of the other "peace and safety" point to the same Bible verse.

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The followers of Epicurus after his death, though diligent cultivators of peace and safety, continued to display the same belligerency as their founder. According to Lucian it was chiefly the Epicureans who summoned up courage to defy Alexander the False Prophet, and the only man to accuse him to his face on a specific charge was an Epicurean,who almost paid for his daring by his life.117 Upward of a century before the date of this alleged occurrence it was the Epicureans in Thessalonica who by their derision aroused the indignation of St. Paul, then prophesying the second coming of Christ. In his retort he denied them the honor of mention by name but identified them adequately by those catchwords of their creed, "Peace and Safety."118 It may be added that the Epicureans, as usual, were in the right; the prophecy was not fulfilled. (NWD, EahP, p 285)

Just one example from Epicurus and His Philosophy.

FYI https://www.bibleref.com/1-Thessalonian…onians-5-3.html

This is a better option: https://www.bibleref.com/1-Thessalonian…onians-5-3.html