Posts by Don

Before we go too far down the rabbit hole of questioning the authorship of the letter to Pythocles, that translation of mine is a translation from the French of Les Epicuriens which "fills in" a lot of conjecture.

Here's the relevant section of PHerc 1005.
[⁦ -ca.?- ⁩ ἐρχόμενον ἀκριβεί-]
αι πρὸ̣[ς τὰ τῶν ἀνδρῶν],
[πε]ρὶ πολλῶν ἡγ̣[εῖσ]θαι [τἀ-]
κε̣[ί]νοις ἀρέ̣[σ]κοντ' , [ἐκ] τ̣ῆς̣ ἀ̣[ρ-]
5χῆς ὑποψί[α]ν τινὰ̣ [λ]α̣μβά-
ν[ει]ν ὡς περί τινων ἐπι-
στολῶ̣ν̣ καὶ τῆς [Πρὸς Πυ-]
θ̣οκλέα περὶ̣ μ̣[ε]τεώρων
ἐπιτομῆς καὶ τοῦ Περὶ ἀ-
10ρ̣[ετ]ῶ̣[ν], καὶ τῶν εἰς Μητρό-
δωρον ἀναφερομένων
Ὑποθηκῶν καὶ τῶν Μαρ-
τυριῶν καὶ μᾶλλον [δ]ὲ̣
τοῦ Πρὸς τὸν Πλάτωνο̣ς
15Γοργίαν δευτέρου, καὶ τῶν
εἰς Πολύαινον τοῦ Πρὸς
τοὺς ῥήτορας καὶ τοῦ̣ Περὶ
σελήνης καὶ τῶν εἰς Ἕρ̣-
μαρχον· ἐξέλεξεν δὲ καὶ
20[ ̣ ̣ ̣ ̣ ̣ ̣ ̣] γεγραμμένω̣[ν]

Sketched 1803-1806 by Giuseppe Casanova

Engraved 1844-1861 by Vincenzo Corazza

The idea that Zeno questioned the authorship of the letter to Pythocles is speculative at best, unnecessarily provocative to be provocative to be less charitable. I will say that, of I remember, On Piety (the famous Obbink translation one) is only ascribed to Philodemus on the basis of one initial Φ... in that papyrus and is conjectured to be written possibly by Phaedrus, the scholarch of the Garden.

Things get messy with old texts, but I see no good reason to question Epicurus as the author of the three letters in Diogenes Laertius at this time.

Quote from Bryan

he took his own life by drinking neat wine."

-- Pausanias, Description of Greece 10.23.12 (2nd century AD)

ἑκουσίως ἀφεῖναι τὴν ψυχὴν ἀκράτου πίνοντα τοῦ οἴνου.

DL10.15 Hermippus relates that [Epicurus] entered a bronze bath of lukewarm water and asked for unmixed wine,

Ἕρμιππος ἐμβάντα αὐτὸν εἰς πύελον χαλκῆν κεκραμένην ὕδατι θερμῷ καὶ αἰτήσαντα ἄκρατον ῥοφῆσαι:...

Just had to check it was the same word. Sure enough. ἄκρατον

This is the word used in Epicurus' letter:

Henry George Liddell, Robert Scott, A Greek-English Lexicon, τελευτ-αῖος

"Τὴν μακαρίαν ἄγοντες καὶ ἅμα τελευταίαν ἡμέραν τοῦ βίου ἐγράφομεν ὑμῖν ταυτί.

Why does he use ἐγράφομεν "we write"? 1st person plural?

I had to check the Greek:

ἑκουσίως ἀφεῖναι τὴν ψυχὴν ἀκράτου πίνοντα τοῦ οἴνου.

Sure enough, it seems to be just wine unmixed with water. That's not fatal, last time I experimented myself... Just sayin'

Henry George Liddell, Robert Scott, A Greek-English Lexicon, ἄκρα_τος

Exactly, Bryan I'll just point back to what was said a year ago...

Thread

General Notes On Fundamentals of Nature

This thread is for discussion of the list of twelve fundamentals such as suggested by DeWitt or Clay here:

http://www.epicureanfriends.com/wcf/twelve-fundamentals-of-nature/

Cassius

June 13, 2024 at 10:23 PM

Quote from Patrikios

“Of the Twelve Principles the most important was the third: "The universe consists of atoms and void."

There is no extant text by Epicurus called the Twelve Principles. DeWitt came up with those on his own and gave his list the name of a lost text. I'm not saying "the universe consists of atoms and void" isn't a fundamental principle, but there is no way Dewitt should be saying it's "the third." Sorry. This aggravates me every time it comes up.

FWIW .. Here's my take on that...

And please remember, it's not "happy happy joy joy" on the rack, the wise one is experiencing εὐδαίμονα (eudaimonia), well-being. See numerous other threads on this forum where we've discussed, dissected, and dived down that eudaimonic rabbit hole.

It sounds like a great experience! Sorry I couldn't make it.

Quote from Don

No promises, but maybe I'll try to drop by for a little.

Egads. Just finished sweaty yard work. I won't be able to attend. All the best to everyone!!

Quote from Cassius

I was thinking Don might weigh in from another direction as well. Don is very strong on PD10 being a reference to reprobate acts being bad because they do in fact lead to pain in most cases.

Okay, now having re-read the proem, I will weigh in from my customary ( Cassius may say predictable ) direction. To me, it seems Lucretius is setting the imaginary hazards against the real hazards of living a pleasurable life. In practical terms, those activities - not abstract vices but real-life activities involving those behaviors - likely lead to more pain than pleasure in the long run. That's my take on PD10 + 11 + 12 (I take those as a unit) and that's my take here. Indulge in these of you wish. There's no divine commandments. But you'll have to reap the consequences.

Wasn't Hercules a favorite of the Stoics? By setting up Epicurus' deeds as greater than those of Hercules, Lucretius would in a way be thumbing his nose at the Stoics.

Great episode everyone. 🎉

One nit to pick: While I realize it's a common English idiom, my contention remains that we have to be careful using phrases like "when we're dead" or "being dead" and so on.

We can't "be" dead. When we are, death is not. When death is, we are not. Perpetuating that idiom undercuts "death is no thing." "After we die" is fine. "When we have died" would work. "When we're dead" could be taken as admitting there's a "we" that could "be" dead, could sense "being dead." Don't give the eternalists an opening.

No promises, but maybe I'll try to drop by for a little.

That's a good one.

I literally have this VS hanging on my door frame at work (Greek large font, English caption)

οὐ δεῖ λυμαίνεσθαι τὰ παρόντα τῶν ἀπόντων ἐπιθυμίᾳ, ἀλλʼ ἐπιλογίζεσθαι ὅτι καὶ ταῦτα τῶν εὐκταίων ἦν.

VS35. Don't ruin the things you have by wanting what you don't have, but realize that they too are things you once did wish for.

Quote from Rolf

Epicurus using the word "blame" in the second quote makes sense to me, as I read it as him saying that we can only hold ourselves accountable for what is in our control

I'd say you're firmly on base.

Here's that section from my Menoikeus translation, and I just realized I need to correct the text. Here is the correct version:

133j. ᾧ καὶ τὸ μεμπτὸν καὶ τὸ ἐναντίον παρακολουθεῖν πέφυκεν.

καὶ τὸ μεμπτὸν καὶ τὸ ἐναντίον

μεμπτὸν "to be blamed; blameworthy"

ἐναντίον "opposite, contrary"

This phrase is normally translated as some permutation of “both blame and praise.” However, the word "praise/praiseworthy" is not in the Greek but implied by the juxtaposition of καὶ τὸ μεμπτὸν καὶ τὸ ἐναντίον which literally means "that which is blameworthy and that which is its opposite."

παρακολουθεῖν "following beside, following closely, c. dat., Dem.: of a physician, π. νοσήματι Plat.; so, π. τοῖς πράγμασιν ἐξ ἀρχῆς Dem.: of an audience, to follow with the mind, Aeschin."

πέφυκεν "brought forth, produced"

Which brings us to the end of verse 133 and our consolidated literal translation:

Seeing that, whom do you consider is better or more powerful than one who holds pious beliefs concerning the gods; one who has absolutely no fears concerning death; one who has rationally determined the τέλος of one's natural state; and the one who grasps that, on the one hand, good things (namely pleasures) are both easily attained and easily secured, and, on the other hand, evil things (or pains) are either short in time or brief in suffering; someone who laughs at Fate which is introduced onto the stage of life by many as the mistress of all things? For that person, even though some things happen by necessity, some by chance, and some by our own power, for although necessity is beyond our control, they see that chance is unstable and there is no other master beyond themselves, so that blame and its opposite are inseparably connected to themselves.

Quote from Rolf

But with Epicureanism, I haven't "sinned" if I do something that results in more pain than pleasure. It's a learning process. Sometimes I drink too heavily on a night out and feel hungover the next day, and realise that I would've been better off drinking more moderately. But it's not some kind of stain on my soul. Life can be messy and Epicurus, from what I understand, gets this. There's nothing inherently despicable about living a life filled with pain, it's just misguided and unnecessary.

We got off on a Greek tangent, but I wanted to say that that's well put. Teachers and students in the Garden definitely corrected each other, pointed out mistakes, and gave frank feedback. One had to acknowledge one's mistakes, too; and you've given good examples of "could have made better choices." And there's nothing "sinful" about overindulging in wine, for example. But if you're going to, you've made a choice and you'll have to deal with the consequences. No more, no less.

The word akin to that also occurs in DL X.137:

137] He further disagrees with the Cyrenaics in that they hold that pains of body are worse than mental pains ; at all events evil-doers (ἁμαρτάνοντας hamartanontas) are made to suffer bodily punishment ; whereas Epicurus holds the pains of the mind to be the worse ; at any rate the flesh endures the storms of the present alone, the mind those of the past and future as well as the present. In this way also he holds mental pleasures to be greater than those of the body.

ἁμαρτάνοντας

Henry George Liddell, Robert Scott, A Greek-English Lexicon, ἁμαρτάνω

Quote from sanantoniogarden

Maybe something like a physical therapy regimen necessary to walk again? Going to the dentist for some painful procedure to prevent future difficulties?

Fair enough; however, those desires are still not based on empty desires which have no limits.

Quote from sanantoniogarden

To my mind, this doctrine addresses desires that do not arise from genuine need but from empty values ingrained by social conditioning.

Exactly. It's important to make the distinction between unnecessary desires (which are part of pleasure seeking in Epicurus' philosophy) and the empty desire that have no limit. Note, I'm saying the desires have no limit. Pleasure itself always has a limit, ie, the absence of pain.

Quote from Cassius

some desires which will take a lot of effort to obtain but also which will lead to great bodily or mental pain if they are not achieved.

This strikes me as well represented by sanantoniogarden 's examples. The desire to walk when this inability is due to injury is well founded.

Quote from Cassius

It's probably worth noting that of course this isn't saying that there won't be some desires which will take a lot of effort to obtain but also which will lead to great bodily or mental pain if they are not achieved.

I'm not necessarily disagreeing, but do you have examples of these?

Diogenes Laertius, Lives of Philosophers, X.120: "The school holds that sins are not all equal ; ..."

Δοκεῖ δ᾽ αὐτοῖς ἁμαρτήματα ἄνισα εἶναι. ...

(The school) Holds the doctrine that failures are unequal, ... (my translation)

LSJ: ἁμάρτημα , ατος, τό,

A. failure, fault, S.Ant.1261 (lyr.); freq. in Att. Prose, Antipho 3.3.8, Th.2.65, etc.; midway between ἀδίκημα and ἀτύχημα, Arist.EN1135b18, Rh.1374b7; sinful action, opp. κατόρθωμα, Zeno Stoic.1.54, cf. PTeb.5.3, etc.; “τὸ περὶ τὴν τέχνην λεγόμενον ἁ.” Pl.Plt.296b, cf.Ap.22d; “εἴς τινα” Id.Lg.729e; “περὶ τὸ σῶμα” Id.Grg.479a.

"midway between ἀδίκημα and ἀτύχημα" occurs in Aristotle, Nichomachean Ethics. ie, between something intentional wrong or error of judgement and misfortune or fault of ignorance, a mistake.

Middle Liddell: 1. a failure, fault, sin, Soph., Plat. 2. a bodily defect, malady, id=Plat.