Posts by Don

Quote from Rolf

Actually, could somebody take a crack at explaining fundamentally what prolepsis is? Is it innate knowledge that we’re born it? I’m more confused than I thought!

The HUGE problem is that there are not a lot of surviving texts that speak specifically to prolepsis. That's one reason Bryan 's compiling uses of the word and related words is so helpful, seeing the word/s in context.

The are a VARIED number of interpretations of prolepsis, starting as far back as Cicero! I don't know whether we'll ever have the concept from an Epicurean perspective definitively described.

That said, with due respect to Cassius and others bringing in Meno and the theory of knowledge, I **personally** see prolepsis, ancient concepts of memory formation, the workings of the psykhē (mind/soul), to be of tangential importance to applying Epicurus' philosophy in the modern world to my way of living. I find the investigations that the ancients dealt in and how they arrived at their findings of fascinating intellectual curiosity. But eidola do not grind grooves into my psykhē to make subsequent similar eidola easier to intercept. Brains don't work that way.

What Epicurus does give me is a firm commitment to finding physical causes completely devoid of woo-woo. It might not be eidola and psykhē, but it is a physical, natural, material cause to my memories, thought, and other mental processes. The Letter to Pythocles is a testament to finding material, physical causes to phenomena.

So, I don't get hung up on the specific details taught in the ancient school; but I think there are principles that are directly applicable from then to now.

There's also the prolepsis of justice which doesn't physically exist but "we know it when we *see* it." That one, I've taken to be akin to the innate sense of fairness exhibited by various animals, ex.

Quote from Kalosyni

There actually isn't anything physically painful about the idea "it takes too much time"...it is just a mental judgment that it doesn't seem worth the effort.

Ah! But I would posit that there is mental pain in considering all that time in the car, having to stop along the way, how much gas it might take, etc.

Quote from Cassius

Quote from Don

Sure, the motivation for the effort of learning a new skill or achieving a goal one wants is potentially pleasurable, but the effort experienced is painful in the form of repetitive exercises or practice. Frustration sets in that must be overcome. Feelings of inadequacy.

This comes very close, or is at least analogous, to the question of whether all "desire" should be seen to be painful.

My personal view is that not all desire is painful, and neither is all effort. And in the case of either desire or effort, even in those times where the desire or effort is painful, the ultimate question remains whether the resulting total pleasure is worth the total cost in pain.

I should have used "desire" instead of "motivation." And, using that, I suppose the desire is pleasurable to think of. I'm going to maintain that effort - expending energy for a given purpose - has pain associated with it. That's not too say you can't have "a good kind of tired" after expending it. But energy expenditure has some element of pain... Unless we're going to start talking about the "runner's high" and "being in the zone/going with the flow." Then, maybe?

Quote from Kalosyni

Is effort always painful? (I don't think so myself).

Depends on the definition of pain and/or effort being used.

Any effort seems to me to be use of force or energy against some impediment or towards some goal which someone is trying overcome or to arrive at.

Sure, the motivation for the effort of learning a new skill or achieving a goal one wants is potentially pleasurable, but the effort experienced is painful in the form of repetitive exercises or practice. Frustration sets in that must be overcome. Feelings of inadequacy.

I don't think "effort" is the right way to think about it.

The pleasure of aponia connotes both "without toil or trouble, effortless" and "painless; free from pain."

A more productive way to think about pursuing pleasure is to get out of its way, to recognize the pleasure that's already present in our lives and to which we stubbornly refuse to admit into our lives.

Start small, recognize the beauty of a sunset, the lack of pain in a spot in your body, the company of loved ones. Don't just acknowledge it. Feel it. Appreciate it. Value it.

By struggling in an effortful way, one is adding an unnecessary level of pain. Sure, we choose pain sometimes for greater pleasure. My go to example is always exercise, but there are much more serious examples: ex., leaving an abusive relationship in which the oppressed partner has a "sunk cost" ("they can change. I can change them.)

A start is just to get out of pleasure's way. Let it in.

I'm not saying it's easy after years of conditioning. But sometimes we ourselves are our own worst impediment to feeling pleasure.

FWIW Since we're bringing up John Brown, within the past few days I came across John Brown's final court speech as presented by actor David Strathairn:

I had never heard of this before, but powerful oration.

FYI

ARES - Greek God of War & Battlelust

Ares was the ancient Greek god of war, battlelust, courage and civil order. In art he was depicted as either a mature, bearded warrior armed for battle, or a…

www.theoi.com

You can't have Venus without Mars. Old things must be destroyed, must die, for new things to be created. Otherwise, nothing would change; everything would be static.

With the most minimum of facts to back that up

Quote from Cassius

Do we have any indication whatever to your knowledge as to the size of the garden in terms of acres?

It's in my article

I think I would place his house slightly to the NW of the Agora. I've thought of it on the edge of the Inner Keramikos but still within Melite.

ToposText

Quote from Kalosyni

When he says "hear things far more sweet than the Phaeacians' land... possibly he was refering to Lucretius De Rerum Natura ...(especially the opening which speaks of Venus and Nature)...just a thought.

The Phaeacians refers to Odysseus's stay in their land, and, if I remember, was used by Epicurus or another early Epicurean as support for the school's position on pleasure from Homer (THE authority in ancient Greece) since other schools used Homer as well.

A quick note on Βρομίου χιογενῆ (Bromiou chiogenē): the Bromiou refers to another name for Bacchus and hence "wine" so something like "the drink of Bacchus"; chiogene literally means "made in Chios" (prized for its wine) or "the drink of Bacchus" having its "genesis" (-genē) in Chios (chio-)

LOL "Best" is a loaded question. Most literal? Most readable? Prose adaptation or poetic translation? There are a lot of good translations online. My suggestion would be to explore those first.

As an aside, my first full read through was Stallings, but that can be a polarizing translation.

Warning: mention of suicide in this post.

Cassius brings up VS47, attributed to Metrodorus, and the "exiting the stage" as an out for those in severe pain. While Atticus may have stopped eating and other Epicureans took measures to not prolong life, I didn't see this as an endorsement of suicide.

We've discussed VS47 in the post, including:

Post

RE: If Death Is Nothing To Us, Then Life Is Everything to Us

Good catch, Joshua...

[…]

I'd offer the following: The key phrase in that translation isn't the spitting on life, it's the "when it is time for us to go." I don't think VS47 has anything to do with having the option to "exit the stage" if we're in pain as above where Cassius implies (and states that outright).

VS47 is attributed to Metrodorus:

https://archive.org/details/metrod…ge/561/mode/1up

And the Epicurus Wiki does a really nice job parsing the Greek:

…

Don

October 7, 2023 at 7:37 AM

I continue to see VS47 as urging people to not take extraordinary measures to prolong suffering and pain when death is inevitable, as it will eventually be for everyone. Atticus decision to not eat was a decision to not fight against his incurable condition. His Wikipedia article actually does a decent job in going that way (emphasis added):

Just after his 77th birthday he fell ill, and at first his ailment appeared minor. But after three months his health suddenly deteriorated. Deciding to accelerate the inevitable, he abstained from ingesting any nourishment, starving himself to death, and dying on the fifth day of such fasting, "which was the 31st March, in the consulship of Cn. Domitius and C. Sosius", that is in the year 32 BC.

Maybe I'm splitting hairs, but I see a difference in not fighting one's inevitable mortality when death is assured and saying exiting the stage when the hope of pleasure isn't possible as two very different perspectives. I fully endorse the former and hope, when my time comes (LOL at least three decades+ from now!) that I can go with a song on my lips or in my mind.

I think it's interesting that The Declaration provided for the means to pursue happiness. It didn't guarantee happiness, just the right to have the opportunity to pursue it.

This is why I dislike "happiness" as a translation for ευδαιμονια (eudaimonia). It is a woefully inadequate word choice. The reason I can accept "The wise man will 'be happy' on the rack" is that it actually says "κἂν στρεβλωθῇ δ᾽ ὁ σοφός, εἶναι αὐτὸν εὐδαίμονα" "Even if the wise one is under torture - stretched on the rack, he is experiencing eudaimonia."

It seems also important to realize that the Greek is not punctuated like the English. The Greek seems to include this whole section:

Even on the rack the wise man is happy. He alone will feel gratitude towards friends, present and absent alike, and show it by word and deed. When on the rack, however, he will give vent to cries and groans.

That middle section about gratitude comes right between the "rack" parts. When on the rack, the wise one may still feel gratitude for their life and for their friends. It's not that they're "happy happy joy joy" on the rack. They can feel gratitude for their life and friends, they can feel satisfied that they've lived their life well. They won't give up their friends even on the rack, they will show their gratitude "by word and deed." Honestly, I don't know if I could do that. I doubt it. But I'm not wise yet. I still have work to do in putting Epicurean principles deep into my bones. Do I still have tingly feelings of an afterlife sometimes in the dark of night? Maybe. Old habits are HARD to break. Do I feel gratitude for my life and my friends and my family? Yes, THAT I can do.

PS. And, of course, the wise one will "give vent to cries and groans" while being tortured!! They're not Stoics. There should not be any question that a human being will cry out of under severe pain. I'm sure Epicurus let out cries when his kidneys were inflamed and he felt like his insides were being twisted in knots. That's just common sense. He felt the pain. It's not like the memories of past good times removed his pain. That's not what the letter says. He was satisfied with his life, knowing it was coming to an end. Between pangs of severe pain, he took satisfaction in a life well lived.

FWIW

I think it can go a couple different ways. From the human, mortal perspective, if one cultivates and ingrains The Four principles along with an on-going study of the philosophy, one can be a blessed one, makarios (remember the same Greek word used in the Beatitudes), whose understanding of the nature of things is incorruptible.

That's one way an interpretation could go of PD01.

Quote from Bryan

Quote from DaveT

four cardinal principals

Quote from Don

Tetrapharmakos

Yes, here is Tsouna on that section:

"The expression τὰ τέτταρα refers to the Fourfold Remedy. We suggest that it should be distinguished from τὰ κυριώτατα (1. 8). τὰ τέτταρα are precisely four principles originally expressed by Epicurus and later constituting the Fourfold Remedy. On the other hand, the term κυριώτατα in its technical sense is intended to cover all the fundamental principles pertaining to a certain subject and enabling the Epicurean student to confront particular problems and to solve them on his own."

This is very helpful, Bryan !

So, if I'm understanding the excerpt you cited:

τὰ τέτταρα literally means The Four Things (and only four things)

τὰ κυριώτατα literally means The Principal Things (as in a collection of things)

The word for "doctrines, principles" is implied in both in context.

From this here, τὰ τέτταρα is an alternative term for the Four Remedies that form the most basic, pared down, fundamental "things" on which Epicurus' ethics is built? I still think that the ethics is built on the physics, to be clear; but The Four is what one has to get right before "moving on" to details or to keep firmly in mind at all times?

Thoughts?