Posts by Don

Thank you for sharing your personal history and present situation with us. That can't be easy to do on a forum.

You question whether you might be an Epicurean, but Epicurus endorsed finding the way for one to lead a pleasurable life and having health of the body and serenity of the mind. It sounds like you are striving for that.

It also sounds like you have benefited from therapy in the past, so finding a new mental health professional may serve you well in your pursuit of a pleasant life. If you're interested, here is a page with some resources and additional contacts if you're searching for a new therapist: https://www.samhsa.gov/serious-mental-illness

All that being said, it does sound like you are doing your best to appreciate the pleasures available to you. That's important, and something many people don't take time to appreciate.

You may be right that government benefits would allow you a little more freedom, self-sufficiency, and security. Also, qualities of a pleasurable life. Hopefully, that will work out.

Don't take your treatment solely into your own hands. Epicurus taught the importance of a supportive community but also frank speech. Don't hesitate to seek out the professional care you think you need. Philosophy can be a powerful complement but not necessarily a replacement for modern medicine and therapies. Take good care of your body and your mind with the best methods available.

Quote from Patrick

Hi, I will probably be more of a lurker because I am not academically inclined, nor am I a philosopher

Welcome, Patrick! I, too, originally expected to be a lurker... Now, I've ended up on the podcast The forum participants are a welcoming bunch. Feel free to participate as actively as you are comfortable doing. And as far as being a "philosopher" I don't *think* anyone here is an academically-trained Philosopher. But by expressing an interest in studying or practicing wisdom, you've already taken a step to being a philosopher. Epicurus claimed to be self-taught, too.

Quote from Cassius

An "Epicurean Philosophy Night" at a local men's or women's club or children's club is probably more consistent with what I was thinking rather than something named and focused the other way around. Good catch.

Okay, I think we're on the same page. That whole "red pill" "Manosphere" is alarming, misogynistic stuff from what I can see. I don't usually express sympathy for Stoics but it is a shame if Greco-Roman literature/culture etc gets co-opted by that "community." I'll end there before going down a political path

Quote from Cassius

A truly effective "men's club" in the modern world would be an "Epicurean Men's Club" and I would have no more problem with that than I would with an "Epicurean Women's Club" or whatever other self-identified group thought it would be helpful to have a group devoted to their own unique circumstances of living -

Hmmm. My first response is to push back on your assertion there. Epicurus's Garden sets the paradigm for Epicurean communities in that they are/should welcome all. Having a sectarian (in any form) group goes against the ecumenical, open, welcoming nature of the original Gardens.

https://www.tenpercent.com/podcast-episode/nancy-sherman-382

In the interests of keeping up with our rivals, I started to listen to this 10% Happier episode with Dr. Nancy Sherman (wasn't aware of her) who just published a book on Stoicism. I haven't finished the episode yet, so if anyone also listens, feel free to share your thoughts.

I think there are practices that are or could be common to Epicureans and Stoics from a shared Greek culture. So I'm interested to hear her take on those.

However, she lost my sympathetic ear early on when she talked about Stoicism helps deal with tragedy and she used the example of Agamemnon *having* to sacrifice his child to sail. Just in passing, you might miss it if you're not paying attention, but... What, what?! I immediately thought of the Epicurean response to the murder of Iphegenia: Tantum religio potuit suadare malorum! So, yeah, if that's the Stoic response to that scene in Greek myth, no thank you.

They also talk briefly about Stoicism's embrace by the "Manosphere". I hadn't heard about that until recently, but I've also read a little stuff from Donna Zuckerberg and her research. If interested, just search online for her name and Stoicism or "red pill." You'll get results.

The thing that gets me with modern Stoics is their lack of "source" for their virtue. The originals were convinced they were cogs in the wheel of the universe, put in their position by Zeus or some Power, and what happened to them was part of a divine plan. That is muted or absent in much of what I've seen of the moderns. And if they throw that away, why be resigned with what just happens to you by chance?

Dan Harris is a good interviewer and comes at his guests with curiosity. There could be some good stuff in there, but, shall we say, approach the Stoa with caution.

Quote from Cassius

Look at this for example: In the final sentence the latin is jocunde - of which "agreeable" is one translation, but of the options listed at Perseus "agreeably' is probably the least appropriate. Since we are talking clearly about pleasure in this passage, why not use the more applicable "PLEASANTLY" or "DELIGHTFULLY" or "PLEASINGINGLY"-?

Why not? Because "pleasure" and its derivatives are dirty, four-letter words. It's a carry over from a stuffy, puritanical past.

This full text also, in my opinion, bolsters my contention that when Epicurus uses "the good" in various places in the Letter to Menoikeus that he means pleasure and not some abstract philosophical concept. When we recall the good when we're old it's not "philosophical teachings" like some translators state. It's remembering pleasurable events in the past. Plain and simple.

Great episode! Finally had a chance to listen while driving to/from work.

I posted this before listening to Joshua 's "dramatic reading." The word that came unbidden to my mind was mellifluous. I decided to look up that word since it usually doesn't come up in casual conversation. I found the following derivation: "late 15th century: from late Latin mellifluus (from mel ‘honey’ + fluere ‘to flow’) + -ous." So, Joshua 's rendition literally provides the honey to the cup of wormwood.

Quote from Philia

.and so it would seem that the mind must be tenderly cared for so that pleasure and joy can flower

A lovely way to phrase it!

For me, pleasure encompasses a wide spectrum:

• Walking in the woods and admiring the sun shining through the leaves.
• Looking up at the sky, eyes closed, and feeling the warmth of the sun on my face.
• Partaking in lively conversation.
• Finding an old book on the shelves at the library and feeling the imprint of the printing plates on the page.
• Losing myself in reading or working on a translation.

Pleasure can be big and all-encompassing, or small and intimate, shared or solitary.

Those are my initial thoughts.

Thanks for starting this thread, Kalosyni !

I've thought a good title for an Epicurean podcast or other forum/format would be:

"Pleasure is not a Four-Letter Word"

Here's a possible draft comment... Unless I decide to live unknown

I just came across this program on Instagram (I know! Social media does good!? Shocking!) and look forward to the podcast. The thing that struck me as I watched the video was how Epicurean (capital E) it sounded. The discussion of enjoyment as pleasure. The discussion of listening to your feelings. The importance of connection and friendship. The discussion of living through pain but not seeking it out. All these are Epicurean themes. It seems to me that the the podcast could be called "How to Build Eudaimonia" to use the ancient Greek word often translated as "happiness" but having connotations of so much more: fulfillment, satisfaction, well-being, etc. Epicurus's philosophy is often characterized (erroneously from my perspective) as asceticism but he really talked about living a fully human life: using one's feelings of pleasure and pain to make conscious choices of what to pursue and what to reject; the paramount importance of friendship in leading a pleasurable life; experiencing pain in the moment to experience something pleasurable in the long-run (my go-to example is exercise but it could go much deeper). I found myself nodding my head in agreement from an Epicurean perspective with almost everything you both talked about. Well done presentation, lots to dig into, and excited to see where your take the podcast.

(Revised text. Comments welcomed)

I am struck by how Epicurean this sounds! I'm thinking this is more " How to Build Eudaimonia." But the part where they talk about listening to your feelings seems to me spot on! The discussion of experiencing pain but not seeking it out. The importance of friendship. It'll be interesting where this goes, but this first episode strikes a very Epicurean tone. Part of me thinks it could go off the rails, but enjoy this one. I'm really tempted to post a comment since there's only 4 right this minute to not this.

Yeah, he definitely seems to be a member of the modern Stoic movement:

http://www.johnsellars.org.uk/popular-writing.html

Okay, if we go back to 2003...

Materialism and Ethics (2003)

From The Philosopher, Volume LXXXXI No. 2 Autumn 2003 MATERIALISM AND ETHICS: Learning from Epicurus  By John Sellars A s...

www.the-philosopher.co.uk

I did a quick search of Sellars at Academia.edu and didn't see anything specifically on Epicureanism. Lots of articles, papers, book chapters on the minutiae of Stoicism, Aristotle, Hadot, Marcus Aurelius, and Hellenistic philosophy in general with a smattering of Epicurus and Lucretius.

https://scholar.google.com/scholar?hl=en&as_sdt=0%2C36&q=john+sellars&btnG=

There is a general Google Scholar search.

So his major Research interest lies in Stoicism with a general interest in Hellenistic philosophy. I guess we'll see.

Thanks for the heads-up, Joshua !!!

I just found this article on Academia talking about the development of autarkeia in Greek antiquity:

Ancient debates on autarkeia and our global impasse

Probably the most glaring geo-political contradiction today consists between economic inequality on the one hand and the over-exploitation of the planet's…

www.academia.edu

ANCIENT DEBATES ON AUTARKEIA AND OUR GLOBAL IMPASSE

Unfortunately, it doesn't mention Epicurus, but it does lay out the development of the concept through Aristotle, Cynicism, Pericles, etc. It does appear to include both contentment and economics from an early stage of the formation of the idea. In any case, this seems to give a good summary of the ancient Greek mindset on this term.

I *may* go so far as to say autarkeia has, in part, the connotation of being content with one's economic situation if at least all your basic needs are met. Which is not to say one has to be satisfied with a mere subsistence existence!! There's nothing a priori "bad" about accumulating wealth (like the property manager talked about by Philodemus) but don't get caught up in making money for money's sake. The goal of wealth is still the living of a pleasurable life and being able to give to your friends if needed.

I *don't* think Epicurus advocated the complete removal from society and the establishment of autonomous communes away from the polis. The Garden was a community but not a commune. I don't endorse that connotation of autarkeia. Even "live unknown" had connections to society. How else would the wise establish a school but not draw a mob. How else would they give speeches if asked if they were off in the woods or cut off from society?

I'm also not convinced that the Garden was residential. I think some close affiliates like the "guides/teachers" lived with Epicurus or near the Garden, but I get the impression it was more a "commuter school" for the most part. But I'm still doing research on that.

NOTE: I'm not saying you're necessarily advocating the viewpoint I'm talking about in the last 2 paragraphs, Macario , but I think there's a strong strain of this out there. So, I figured I'd get my position on the record... or at least my position as of the writing of this post. As Cassius says, I reserve the right to revise and extend my remarks

Macario , thank you very much for those additional excerpts! That's very helpful.

Quote from Macario

In the end, it seems to me that the aspects of contentment with what one have and the idea of economic self-sufficiency are both connected to the concept of autarkeia in Epicurus

I am coming to the same conclusion.

I'm not sure I completely concur with your "equation" interpretations, but I believe I can see where you're coming from in those.

I do think that Epicurus taught that we it was necessary to have our basic existential needs taken care of - somewhat like the base of the pyramid of Maslow's Hierarchy of Needs - before we can live a pleasurable life, but I don't think he thought that was sufficient especially since he places such an emphasis on friendship.

I'll continue to cogitate on this and share any thoughts on this thread.

Thank you again for engaging!

Quote from Cassius

for the pseudo-Romans like Don and me

LOL.Bite your tongue, ο φίλος μου! I'm Team Barbarian all the way.

We discussed the spring/fountain of Jupiter Ammon with its hot and cold waters in this episode. We were all a little skeptical, but it turns out it was - and continues to be - an actual location.

It turns out that Herodotus mentions this location in his Histories (4.181.3-4):

Quote from Herodotus, The Histories

(2) The first on the journey from Thebes , ten days distant from there, are the Ammonians, who follow the worship of the Zeus of Thebes ; for, as I have said before, the image of Zeus at Thebes has the head of a ram. (3)They have another spring of water besides, which is warm at dawn, and colder at market-time, and very cold at noon; (4) and it is then that they water their gardens; as the day declines, the coldness abates, until at sunset the water grows warm. It becomes ever hotter and hotter until midnight, and then it boils and bubbles; after midnight it becomes ever cooler until dawn. This spring is called the Spring of the Sun.

Pliny the Elder also mentions this location in The Natural History (2.106):

Quote from Pliny the Elder, The Natural History

The pool of Jupiter Ammon, which is cold during the day, is warm during the night

The pool/fountain/spring is located in the Siwa Oasis: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Siwa_Oasis which, in ancient times, was a temple to Ammon/Amun. Herodotus said it was a 10 day journey from Thebes (on the Nile) to Siwa in ancient times. Evidently, the "boiling" at midnight is an exaggeration. Although maybe the geothermal activity was more pronounced in ancient times?

The settlement was established in the 700s BCE

Herodotus c. 484 - c. 425 BCE

Lucretius c. 99 - c. 55 BCE

Pliny the Elder 23/24 - 79 CE

That's a span from the mid-400s BCE to 79 CE

And we're still talking about and visiting the Oasis in 2021!

I find it fascinating that this location has maintained its fame for over 2,700 years and *continues* to be a tourist attraction.. even without an Oracle to consult.

I also apologize, Macario , but I should have directly responded to the DeWitt quoted passages. I'll try to do that over the weekend. I did see that this line:

Quote from DeWitt

To Epicurus the simple life meant contentment with little and this was called self-sufficiency, which in turn meant freedom: “Of self-sufficiency the most precious fruit is freedom.”

seems to convey to me the idea of contentment in relation to αυτάρκεια.

Thank you again for engaging in this conversation. I know it's been valuable for me so far to get me to delve into this topic.