Posts by Don

I did want to add that I concur with the thoughts above that I think the idea of some kind of supernatural power probably would be rediscovered or never go away. That concept along with an afterlife seems to go back well into the prehistoric origins of humans. But the specific manifestations of Shiva, Odin, Yahweh, Zeus, Ahura-Mazda, etc. are unlikely to be rediscovered as well as the rites texts associated with them.

I see your post as more Epicurean than Utilitarian. Your post is more concerned with its effect on the individual. My rudimentary understanding of Utilitarianismis that their hedonic calculus actually counts up numbers of dolors and hedons and worries a lot about the "needs of the many." That always seemed too abstract. Yours seems very grounded in the real world.

Plus those beers look intriguing. I'm not sure if that was your own photo, but now I want to hunt them down.

Eloquently stated, Joshua !!

One thing that strikes me as I read your writing was that, like science, if the philosophy of Epicurus is ever truly lost, there's a chance someone in the future would recreate - or rediscover - it on their own under a different name.

Being based on natural principals and having a foundation in a material world, one could, if necessary, "discover" that the world is built of "little seeds", that the "soul" dies with the body, that if there are "gods" (of that concept arises) that they don't bother us, the rational pursuit of pleasure is a worthy goal, and so on.

I find it very difficult to believe that the same could be said for Christian substitution theology or even virtue-based Stoicsm. Maybe some kind of "Buddhist" "science of mind" involving meditation because the mind is always there to study and engage in introspection.

But I've heard this argument from scientists and agnostics/atheists: that science is "rediscoverable" and religion is not. Some new form of theology would emerge to control the masses and to strike fear into them. But scientific principles are manifest in the universe: E=mc², the Earth goes around the sun, etc. I would include living beings are attracted to pleasure and avoid pain in there which underpins the philosophy we know as Epicurus's but in the future could be "resurrected" by someone else independent of knowledge of the Garden. That doesn't mean we don't respect or honor Epicurus now since the philosophy does spring from him and we know it now. I think I take comfort in this rediscoverability, but I'm curious if anyone agrees or has any thoughts iin this direction.

Quote from Cassius

I am guess it is is book five and it ought to jump out at me which book, and which section, because that is a very frequently referenced statement. We'll find it!

LOL! You don't have the entire DRN memorized by book and line? Oh, for shame !

Quote from Kalosyni

This year I am going to fullful my wish of making a gingerbread house, all from scratch, so it will be good and tasty enough to eat on Christmas day.

Post a picture!

For me, I want a philosophy of life to put into practice, and that's what I'm finding steadily more and more with Epicurus's philosophy. Something to use as a measure against which to weigh life decisions. There aren't commandments, but there are "have you considered this?" elements.

That's one of the things that drew me first to Buddhism: Buddha's teaching that "Don't take my word for it. Test what I've taught. If it works, do it. If not, throw it away." The trappings and supernatural components (ex., rebirth) steered me away.

I have found Epicureanism an eminently practical perspective rooted in the material world that gives direction to one's path thru life.

And this virtual Garden has been a big component of coming to these realizations.

Ευχαριστώ! I give thanks to all those fellow travelers in the Garden Path.

Welcome Scott

I like Epinoob* You've coined a good one there!

You'll find a number of us came to Epicurus's Garden through a similar path as yours via Buddhism and the Stoics. I look forward to your taking part in the discussions!

Check out the podcast to "eavesdrop" on some lively, thought-provoking conversations.

*I couldn't resist coming back in here and giving Epinoob an ancient Greek twist:

Singular Επινουβος (Epinoubos), plural Επινουβοι (Epinouboi).

The closest real ancient Greek word is ἐπῐ́νοιᾰ "power of thought, imagination, inventiveness"

That's fun!

Yes, her Χαρουμενη ημέρα των ευχάριστων literally translates as "Happy day of thanksgiving."

In light of Elli's post on FB, maybe a better title would Εὐχάριστοι γίνεσθε! (Eukharistoi ginesthe)* "Be grateful!" or paraphrased to "Give thanksgiving!" reminding us to be grateful. My original Kala eukharistia! didn't necessarily refer to the "day" of Thanksgiving (as Elli's comment did (which I greatly appreciate btw) but "joyous, happy, good thanksgiving" as an act of gratitude in which to engage. Even so, Εὐχάριστοι γίνεσθε is probably a better way to go in an ancient context.

*The phrase comes from Colossians 3:15 just so I can get my ancient Greek correct. Don't take offense at the source.

Here was my take on that section:

I need to refine a couple points in there, but I stand by my efforts.

Striker:

I concur with what has been said. I'll just add several observations:

In debate he was looked down upon by no one, for he could both discourse at length and also sustain a cross-examination, so that even Nausiphanes when a young man was captivated by him : at all events he used to say that we should follow Pyrrho in disposition but himself in doctrine ; and he would often remark that Epicurus, greatly admiring Pyrrho's way of life, regularly asked him for information about Pyrrho ; DL Lives IX.11.64 http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?do…hlight=epicurus

So, Epicurus was evidently an admirer of Pyrhho's way of life, just not his philosophy (since he rejected Nausiphsnes in the end, too)

Striker: "It seems that Democritus was concerned to admonish his fellow citizens to refrain from polypragmosyne, being busybodies and meddling with other people's affairs; advising them that cheerfulness and peace of mind are more likely to flourish in a quiet life of minding one's own business"

This sounds generally Epicurean to me.

Striker: "Skeptical tranquillity can only be reached if one does not try for it"

This sounds generally Zen Buddhist to me.

Striker: "As far as tranquillity is concerned, skepticism might do just as well, or, for that matter, drugs, since we are now not talking about how people actually live, but only about how they feel. But the suggestion that people might be made happy by an ample supply of drugs that would make them feel euphoric or calm looks repellent to us, and would no doubt have looked repellent to the ancient Greeks also."

Striker pegged my argument against the "experience machine" here, ...but I don't want to open that kettle of fermenting fish!

Quote from Nate

Algoun seems to describe all forms of pain, both physical and psychological. Lypoumen, on the other hand, is almost exclusively used to describe mental anguish. Several times, Epicurus has to preface the word algoun with sarks, meaning "flesh" or "body" to distinguish the physical nature of algoun because there is no word for "just physical pain". Algoun, by itself, is not enough to indicate the quality of the pain. Overwhelmingly, Epicurus uses the word algoun, by itself, without distinguishing whether the Pain is mental or physical.

Excellent insights!

For anyone curious:

αλγος (algos (noun) > algoun particle "feeling pain, suffering")

Henry George Liddell, Robert Scott, A Greek-English Lexicon, ἄλγος

λυπεω http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?do…57:entry=lupe/w

Neither distinguishes bodily or mental specifically as Nate noted!

And I've found some of the connotations of σαρξ sarx interesting especially "the physical or natural order of things, opp. the spiritual or supernatural"

Henry George Liddell, Robert Scott, A Greek-English Lexicon, σάρξ

I'm really looking forward to reading your linguistic exploration of the PDs!

I haven't read the whole paper yet, but this part sounds better than others I've seen (emphasis added):

Epicurus argued that happiness will consist in both tranquilUty and aponia. Thus tranquillity, for Epicurus, is the state of mind of the happy person, a part of happiness, but not happiness itself.

https://www.theoi.com/Olympios/Aphrodite.html

Archive.org is a great idea! Big fan!

What else do you have in your account?

I am looking forward to reading your work!

"Happy Thanksgiving" (Kala eukharistia!)

In the US today, we celebrate the Thanksgiving holiday. Canada celebrated their Thanksgiving holiday last month, so a belated Kαλά εὐχαριστία! to any Canadians stopping by here.

I think of Thanksgiving as the most Epicurean of the established holidays with its emphasis on:

• gratitude
• the gathering together of friends and family
• the enjoyment of food and drink on a special occasion

So, think on these things this holiday and be grateful for this life in which we get to experience all these in addition to having the opportunity to study and practice the philosophy of the Garden.

Carpe diem! Pluck the ripe fruit of the day!

I get this when I click your link:

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Quote from Cassius

there is no supernatural automatic enforcement mechanism like the religious majority believes to be the case.

Oh, definitely. Agreed. You're not "going to Hell" if you're "immoral" or "unethical."

Interestingly, Epicurus doesn't seem to refer to ethics and morals but just and unjust actions. I did a quick search for ηθικός (ēthikos - same word for ethics/morals) in Diogenes Laërtius's Book X on Epicurus and the only instances are where someone is talking about Epicurus, not from his own writing. Even the translation is misleading. Epicurus's Περί Τέλος (Peri Telos) is translated in the Perseus Digital Library as "On the Ethical End" but ethical is chosen by the translator. Telos is goal, fulfillment, etc. That modifier ethical doesn't occur in the Greek. And, as I understand, ηθικός is simply the "right" way to live, to conduct one's life. So, I'm sure the word shows up in Epicurus's writings, but it seems to me that he was much more concerned with just and unjust rather than what we would characterize as moral/immoral or ethical/unethical.

Quote from Cassius

In the end much of the pain that can be expected to come from hurting other people depends on the circumstance that we can expect that others will punish us for that action, and if we have reason to expect that we will not be punished, that motivation will not exist.

I would also add that, in a society or community, even if the person harming other people is sociopathic and feels no remorse or anxiety, we - as members of society- have put in structures and "contracts" to deal with "injustice" to keep ourselves safe.