Posts by Don

I would reply - off the cuff here - that the components of the Canon - Sensations, Pathē, and Prolepseis - have to give us an accurate picture of reality upon which we then build our concepts which can then be either true or false or maybe valid or empty might need better. The pre-rational components on the Canon have to register reality or they're meaningless as a starting point. The idea that the oar is bent is an invalid concept built on the image reflected on our retina. Where the prolepseis fit in is more difficult but I have to think they also register reality before we begin to build concepts on them.

Liked I said, off the cuff.

No, that's not my interpretation of that section at all going back to the text itself.

The only valid - "true" - conception of the gods is through our prolepsis of a blessed and incorruptible being.

The beliefs of the masses, the hoi polloi, are what are false when they say the gods provide blessings to the good and punishment to the wicked.

(btw we cross posted. This was between your two.)

Quote from Cassius

the observation that Epicurus makes that the views of the gods are anticipations but also are false (?)

Wait. Where does that come from?

Welcome, Scott !

I like the idea of just having 366 quotes not pegged to specific days plus I like Marco 's idea of themes.

Quote from Godfrey

It might be better to set it up by sources (Pads, letters, DRN &c) instead of months, at least for the collecting of quotations. Then once there are 365 or more they could be sorted into months. This should make it easier to avoid duplicates.

Agreed.

Quote from Godfrey

Also, would this need to be older sources that are out of copyright? Newer translations might be more relatable as long as using them doesn't create copyright issues.

Public domain (1926 and older) would be best to avoid any unnecessary entanglements, but I think we could make a fair use argument for in copyright works for educational purposes as long as we weren't selling the "calendar." Once there's an economic angle, then it gets tricky.

Quote from camotero

I'm concerned because I'm reading now the PDs as the closing text of Diogenes Laertius's work, as is suggested in the core texts' reading list, and some things are not making sense, or at least don't seem as applicable as I'd expect, which is my main goal (applicability) at this stage.

Should I read something else before I keep going down these PDs?

I can appreciate your frustration, but I encourage you to stick with the PDs. There's only 40 of them (and I would argue several of them need to be read together. The original text wasn't divided into 40 items, there were continuous paragraphs). They're building blocks. I'd also encourage you to ask questions about specific PDs in that section of the forum.

I also fully appreciate your looking for direct applicability. Some of the PDs can be put into practice, others need more context. One big overall takeaway is that our choices and rejections are our own responsibility. Not even Epicurus can tell us what to do in every situation. It is up to us to weigh the consequences and decide.

Keep reading! Keep asking questions!! Your curiosity is welcomed!

Quote from Godfrey

Maybe they're in Volume 2

I applaud your optimism

Plus would we want any Jefferson, Gassendi, DeWitt, etc?

40 Principal Doctrines

~60 unique Vatican Sayings

Epicurus: Fragments - translation

Attalus's site lists Usener's 607 citations but I'm not sure how many of those would work.

Definitely agree with Godfrey that Lucretius should be represented. I would add quotes from the works of Philodemus as well as Hermarchus and Metrodorus where those are extant. It might be nice to add the classical mention of Themista even though we don't have her writings.

Just thinking off the top of my head here.

A_Gardner , I've wanted to do exactly that for a couple years now. I even tried to compile 366 individual quotes. It wasn't easy. I found myself leaning on "contemporary" Epicurean themed writings, etc.

This might actually be a good cooperative project to come up with 366 suitable quotes.

Quote from Cassius

longerliving

I'm coming round to the idea that Epicurus's intended emphasis of άφθαρτον "everlasting, incorruptible" is on the state of not being able to be corrupted, or able to decay instead of the idea of "eternal" as in existing across time forever. He could have used αθάνατος (athanatos) "undying" if he wanted to convey that. I realize it's subtle but I think it's important.

I don't know your location, Alex , but you might want to see if you can borrow the book from a library before purchasing it:

Facing death : Epicurus and his critics (Book, 2006) [WorldCat.org]

Prof. James Warren's faculty page: https://www.classics.cam.ac.uk/directory/james-warren

He does seem to have some specialization in Hellenistic philosophy, and did serve as editor of the Cambridge Companion as Joshua mentioned. I also see at the publisher's site https://oxford.universitypressscholarship.com/view/10.1093/0…f-9780199252893 that Voula Tsouna cites the book in her The Ethics of Philodemus which I own, and, yes, she cites him extensively in the chapter on the fear of death. So, I'd hold off on Warren's book unless you're specifically interested in that topic. If you want something a little expensive, I'd suggest Tsouna's book on Philodemus. I like it because it gives a number of translations of Philodemus's works that aren't readily available elsewhere.

To really make it suitable for performance, I would suggest we'd really need something like this. That's NOT to say you couldn't stick directly to them text! Then narrator would just have to stick close to the text and jump in when there's "her said..." etc. :

THEON: Oh monstrous! Ye Gods! and will ye suffer your names to be thus blasphemed? How do ye not strike with thunder the actor and teacher of such enormities? What! will ye suffer our youth, and the youth of after ages, to be seduced by this shameless Gargettian? Shall the Stoic portico be forsaken for the garden of Epicurus? Minerva, shield thy city! Shut the ears of thy sons against the voice of this deceiver!

NARRATOR: Thus did Theon, having left the portico of the Stoics, give vent to the indignation which the words of Timocrates had worked up within him. Timocrates had been a disciple of the new school; but, quarreling with his master, had fled to the followers of Zeno; and to make the greater merit of his apostacy, and better to gain the hearts of his new friends, poured forth daily execrations on his former teacher, painting him and his disciples in the blackest colours of deformity; revealing, with a countenance distorted as with horror, and a voice hurried and suppressed as from the agonies of dreadful recollections, the secrets of those midnight orgies, where, in the midst of his pupils, the philosopher of Gargettium officiated as master of the cursed ceremonies of riot and impiety.

Full of these nocturnal horrors, the young Theon traversed with hasty steps the streets of Athens, and issuing from the city, without perceiving that he did so, took the road to the Piraeus. The noise of the harbor roused him to recollection, and, feeling it out of tune with his thoughts, he turned up the more peaceful banks of the Cephisus, and, seating himself on the stump of a withered olive, his feet almost washed by the water, he fell back again into his reverie. How long he had sat he knew not, when the sound of gently approaching footsteps once more recalled him. He turned his head, and, after a start and gaze of astonishment, bent with veneration to the figure before him. It was of the middle size, and robed in white, pure as the vestments of the Pythia. The shape, the attitude, the foldings of the garment, were such as the chisel of Phidias would have given to the God of Elocution. The head accorded with the rest of the figure; it sat upon the shoulders with a grace that a painter would have paused to contemplate — elevated, yet somewhat inclining forward, as if habituated gently to seek and benevolently to yield attention. The face a poet would have gazed upon, and thought he beheld in it one of the images of his fancy embodied. The features were not cast for the statuary; they were noble, but not regular. Wisdom beamed mildly from the eye, and candor was on the broad forehead, the mouth reposed in a soft, almost imperceptible smile, that did not curl the lips or disturb the cheeks, and was seen only in the serene and holy benignity that shone over the whole physiognomy: it was a gleam of sunshine sleeping on a lucid lake. The first lines of age were traced on the brow and round the chin, but so gently as to mellow rather than deepen expression: the hair indeed seemed prematurely touched by time, for it was of a pure silver, thrown back from the forehead, and fringing the throat behind with short curls. He received benignly the salutation of the youth, and gently with his hand returning it —

EPICURUS: Let me not break your meditations; I would rather share than disturb them.

NARRATOR: If the stranger's appearance had enchanted Theon, his voice did now more so; never had a sound so sweet, so musical, struck upon his ear.

THEON (to himself): Surely I behold and hear a divinity.

NARRATOR: Theon stepped backwards, and half-stooped his knee with veneration.

EPICURUS: From the groves of the Academy, I see.

THEON: No; from the portico.

EPICURUS: Ah! I had not thought Zeno could send forth such a dreamer. You are in a good school, a school of real virtue; and, if I read faces well, as I think I do, I see a pupil that will not disgrace its doctrines.

Quote from camotero

Does "kai" only translate to "and"?

και is just the conjunction "and"

Sorry

Honestly, I'm still in the Sedley idealist camp since, to my mind, the only way something could be ἄφθαρτον is if it is a mental construction, something in our imagination to who we stream images of a being who is experiencing an eternally pleasurable state of being. I admit I need to read more and meditate on these things, because Epicurus placed a great deal of importance on this.

Quote from camotero

Quote from Nate

ceaselessly satisfied being

This makes much more sense than inmortal being. Could this be a mis interpretation of the greek word too? What was it?

Epicurus: τὸν θεὸν ζῷον ἄφθαρτον καὶ μακάριον

A god is a ἄφθαρτον and μακάριον being (or image depending how you interpret
ζῷον)

ἄφθαρτον = incorruptible, undying, eternal, uncorrupted

μακάριον = blessed, completely happy, etc

Quote from camotero

Quote from Don

my 80-page exploration of the letter to Menoikeus

is this available somewhere?

In the final editing... Stay tuned

PS I should say "final" editing... I'll remain a work in progress.

All good points! Thanks (and sorry to be the wet blanket)

Last minute shopping... Had to share attached photo *This* is what people remember?