Posts by Don

The Internet Classics Archive | On the Nature of Things by Lucretius

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And here, whoso

Decides to call the ocean Neptune, or

The grain-crop Ceres, and prefers to abuse

The name of Bacchus rather than pronounce

The liquor's proper designation, him

Let us permit to go on calling earth

Mother of Gods, if only he will spare

To taint his soul with foul religion.

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We should always remember that Lucretius is using the Greek gods' names metaphorically, as he describes in Book 2 above.

Aphrodite and the Gods of Love: Worship (Getty Villa Exhibitions)

This is the first time I've ever seen one aspect of Aphrodite be named "Aphrodite en kepois" (Aphrodite in the gardens).

https://www.theoi.com/Cult/AphroditeCult.html

This page seems to imply there was a shrine of Aphrodite kepois in or near the Kerameikos district of ancient Athens. Where was the Garden of Epicurus? In the Kerameikos. Coincidence? Pausanias was writing in the 2nd c. CE.

Aphrodite of the Gardens - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

I realize this is a bit of a tangent so I apologize for that. To get back on track, here's my take on the characteristics of the sage as it pertains to this topic:

PS: Having looked at that Pausanias excerpt closer, maybe I spoke too soon. Here are the two sections in Pausanias where he talks about Aphrodite in the gardens:

Pausanias, Description of Greece, Attica, chapter 27

Pausanias, Description of Greece, Attica, chapter 19

I never thought of the "breaking the cycle of samsara/rebirth" as akin to "better never to have been born'" but I can see where that could be inferred.

Oh yeah, Epicurus was NOT cool with that sentiment! He hits this hard in 126-7:

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So, the one who exhorts, on the one hand, for the one who is young to live nobly; and, on the other hand, the one who is old to come to an end nobly is a good-hearted simpleton not only because life is to be welcomed but also because the practice of living well, nobly, and beautifully and the practice of dying well, nobly, and beautifully are the same. But far worse is the one who says, on the one hand, it is well not to be born; or, on the other hand,

"failing this, to pass through the gates of Hades as soon as possible."

[127] On the one hand, if what they say is persuasive, how does one not depart from life? For this is readily at hand, if indeed one was to resolve oneself steadfastly to this. If, on the other hand, this is in jest, one is foolish for making fun of things which do not admit of this.

I always get a kick out of the fact that Epicurus is quoting Theognis's poem in that line before 127. It tickles me because Epicurus resolves the μεν (on the one hand) in his own writing using the δε (on the other hand) in Theognis's poem. That's some clever writing!

Sorry, went off on a little tangent there.

I just saw Kalosyni 's "Bible" reference to be metaphorical, as in a collection of authoritative texts providing what Epicurus and the early Epicureans wrote up to 529 CE. Unfortunately, I doubt we'll ever get such a reference work. The closest we currently have is Book X of Diogenes Laertius although I've been reading Philodemus's On Property Management and On Death today and may have some posts at some point. The scrolls from Herculaneum are always tantalizingly out of reach. I also recently requested Les Epicuriens through interlibrary loan, but, as I barely read French at all, we'll see how helpful it is.

Also Kalosyni , I agree about the UU church (although just as history for anyone interested, the Universalist comes from the Christian concept of universal salvation for everyone and not a benevolent universe) not necessarily being the *best *spot to form a Garden. . Here are some of the reasons I thought they *might* be amenable:

https://www.uucantonny.org/good-without-god/ (mentions Epicurus)

The Swerve: How the World Became Modern | Unitarian Universalist Church of Canton

https://austinuu.org/wp2013/spiritual-ambivalence/ "Epicurus modified the whole dualistic view of humans and took the stance that flesh AND soul were physical and both ended with death – and both body and soul dissolved back into nothingness upon death. Life was for living; it wasn’t just a preamble to eternity."

https://www.uuworld.org/articles/ameri…er-church-state (mentions Epicurus)

"Epicurean group's circle dinners" https://www.phoenixuu.org/wp-content/upl…018/08/1996.pdf

btw, I laughed out loud in the car at Cassius 's mention of our only time limit is "our inevitable death". Can't argue with that!

Keep up the good work!

Joshua and Cassius ,

Both your posts were extremely helpful. Thank you very much for taking the time to compose them! I think I get it now and concur with your conclusions. And, Joshua , we all (I think) continue to wrestle with the anticipations

This also helps contextualize that word δογματιζω (dogmatizō), too, when you say (emphasis added):

Quote from Cassius

Epicurus took firm positions on these issues through deductive chain reasoning

That's exactly what I think is meant by the use of the word unfortunately translated by some as the English "dogmatic." The original meaning in the texts strikes me as being exactly aligned with Cassius 's statement.

I sometimes wonder if contacting some Unitarian Universalist churches wouldn't be fruitful to set up Epicurean "study groups" or events.

We went to a UU church a number of years ago when the kids were little, and they were very (almost too) open to all beliefs and non-beliefs.

Side note: My favorite anecdote from that time happened during the Q&A after the sermon one Sunday. It was a sermon on spirituality, etc., and one of the attendees (a long-time member!) raised his hand and started his comment with "I have to say that I'm not comfortable with all this God talk." Yeah, it was that kind of congregation

I did have a question and observation:

(1) Both Joshua in this episode and DeWitt in his book say that Epicurus was definitely not a complete empiricist. I'm curious why that is.

To me, Epicurus seemed exactly to be described as that:

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a person who supports the theory that all knowledge is based on experience derived from the senses.

Am I misunderstanding something in the definition of empiricism? I'm also not being argumentative, just curious.

On the topic of Epicurus's being "dogmatic," the word used in Diogenes Laërtius's work is

δογματιεῖν

Henry George Liddell, Robert Scott, A Greek-English Lexicon, δ , δμῳ-ή , δογμα^τ-ίζω

with the sense of decree or "lay down as an opinion."

From the context of DL, I get the sense that it is a counter to the Cynics and Skeptics in that the wise one will take a firm stand and not be wishy-washy.

Finally finished up on the way home tonight.

Incidentally, thanks for the couple shout-outs

This was a good episode, gentlemen. Well done. These more freewheeling discussions are very helpful and engaging. I really liked the specific mentions of the forum and our extended discussions here.

Quote from Cassius

Yes this has to happen in stages. But I do think we all need to be clear about the eventual goal , which is real-life local friendships, real-life marriages, real life Epicurean children and childhood education, etc.! The whole nine yards that they had in the ancient world. 

Aim high, ο φίλος μου! Aim high, my friend!

I feel I should provide a little more context and rationale for my post in light of your comments.

Quote from smoothiekiwi

I regard eating your food consciously and with great joy as inherently natural, something which bring us more pleasure in the end

Exactly.

Quote from smoothiekiwi

Still, I wouldn't call it inherently Epicurean

I completely agree; however, I think it's completely in line with Epicurean philosophy. (see below for more)

Quote from Cassius

That would almost be what we sense (rightly or wrong) to have been DeWitt's attitude toward Christianity, on steroids -- every observation of commonality between Christianity and Epicurus becomes "aha - there was crosspolination!" And every observation of people having a good time means that they are Epicurean!

Oh, Cassius knows I'll respond to this

But seriously, I *fully* concur there is no "cross-pollination" or influence or connection (from the researchers/dieticians here) in any way with Epicurean philosophy. I am not (at least in my mind) seeing Epicurean appropriation around every corner.

However, I think their descriptions falls well within an Epicurean tradition or practice unbeknownst to them. Their emphasis on paying attention to your body's cues, your feelings of pleasure and pain, your own interoception is exactly what an Epicurean could/would do.

To respond to @smoothiekiwi , I think it is actually inherently Epicurean without being directly connected to Epicureanism per se.

There are no "rituals" or "traditions" involved in this suggested way of approaching eating. Simply listening to your body's natural innate cues. Epicureans need to pay attention to their feelings of pleasure and pain, and this "intuitive eating" is saying exactly that.

Now, all this being said, this isn't a hill I'm willing to die on... But I think this approach *is* Epicurean in the broad sense. I do not want to go down the syncretism path, but I don't think this particular approach to a healthy attitude toward food (in this time of general abundance and easy access to junk/fast food) is a bad idea, and its general coincidence to being aligned to Epicurean principles was striking from my perspective.

I just saw a piece on the CBS Mornings show about "intuitive eating" that struck me as a very Epicurean way of looking at food.

Here's the site

10 Principles of Intuitive Eating - Intuitive Eating

10 Principles of Intuitve Eating

www.intuitiveeating.org

This line was interesting: "The Japanese have the wisdom to keep pleasure as one of their goals of healthy living."

Uh, hello?

I'm sure the video from the show will be up soon

CBS Mornings

Each weekday morning, "CBS Mornings” co-hosts Gayle King, Tony Dokoupil and Nate Burleson bring you the latest breaking news, smart conversation and in-depth…

youtube.com

I'm only half way through the episode, but this is definitely an enjoyable one! Nicely done.

I was going to post this over in the arrogance thread, but thought this was also appropriate.

I seemed to remember in Sedley's translation and commentary of Epicurus's On Nature, Book XXVIII, Epicurus being a little self-deprecating. One example comes at the very end:

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So let the words which we have prattled suffice for the present. And you others, try ten thousand times over to commit to memory what I and Metrodorus here have just said.

And now I think I have finished prattling to you this twenty-eighth instalment of our consecutive lecture series.

Epicurus actually does use the word ἀδολεσχέω which means "talk idly, prate [talk foolishly or at tedious length about something]" So I get the image of him and Metrodorus having a "bull session" in front of the students in the Garden, and then laughing and going "Okay, I think we're done for now."
That never struck me as the behavior off someone who was arrogant.

Quote from Cassius

This is an interesting comment from that article - i was not aware that Tacitus mentioned Epicurus:

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since Tacitus, in the Dialogue of orators, advises orators to use Plato and Xenophon “and even to borrow certain edifying maxims from Epicurus and Metrodorus“.

Dialogue on Orators - Wikisource, the free online library

see Dialogue XXXI

So Epicurus did occupy the center square of the mosaic:

ARIA Autun mus mosaic plan

Ah! But there were originally 8 portraits not 5 it looks like according to this link

FYI for those who read French:

Épicure dans une anthologie sur mosaïque à Autun - Persée

Using that last post: There are a lot of offerings and celebrations that Epicurus makes provisions for in his will:

• for the funeral offerings separately to
  • my father
  • mother
  • and brothers
• for the customary celebration of my birthday on the tenth day of Gamelion in each year [oops! So it's the 10th and not the 7th??]
• for the meeting of all my School held every month on the twentieth day to commemorate Metrodorus and myself according to the rules now
• join in celebrating the day in Poseideon which commemorates my brothers
• likewise the day in Metageitnion which commemorates Polyaenus, as I have done hitherto.

From the wording, it appears most if not all of these events were going on already, and Epicurus was just making plans for them to continue after he died. And everyone who is being commemorated here is dead already, except Epicurus himself. So, Epicurus commemorates the lives of those who have died on an annual basis and monthly in the case of Metrodorus being commemorated on each 20th. I'm curious if all this was common practice in ancient Greece with birthdays and commemorating the dead. This is a little off target but here is one perspective: https://news.uark.edu/articles/12089…ancient-history

It seems that the dead - although Epicurus's philosophy clearly states that the dead no longer exist - are still "part of the family," they have a continued influence on the living through memory of them. How much more influence on the living community of Epicureans would Metrodorus, Polyaenus, and eventually Epicurus himself have, even after they ceased to exist.

FYI: Diogenes Laertius, book X.18.

"And from the revenues made over by me to Amynomachus and Timocrates let them to the best of their power in consultation with Hermarchus make separate provision (1) for the funeral offerings to my father, mother, and brothers, and (2) for the customary celebration of my birthday on the tenth day of Gamelion in each year, and for the meeting of all my School held every month on the twentieth day to commemorate Metrodorus and myself according to the rules now in force.31 Let them also join in celebrating the day in Poseideon which commemorates my brothers, and likewise the day in Metageitnion which commemorates Polyaenus, as I have done hitherto."

I'm seeing a definition of apperception as:

the mental process by which a person makes "sense of an idea by assimilating it to the body of ideas he or she already possesses."

LSJ just glosses the word as "perceptions"

Henry George Liddell, Robert Scott, A Greek-English Lexicon, ἐπαίσθ-ημα

Quote from smoothiekiwi

I don't even know what YOLO is

LOL It's an acronym for "You Only Love Once" which while true is often used to characterize a daredevil, no-holds-barred lifestyle.

I guess I could have also used FOMO "Fear of Missing Out."

Quote from smoothiekiwi

I’m currently a high school student, as- as strangely as it sounds-, there simply isn’t any time left during the week to go out and enjoy the stars.

I certainly respect that fact that the life of a high school student can be hectic! You don't need to add anything else to your schedule.

But, I think, that's one of the points of Epicurus's philosophy. It's about finding pleasure where you are, right now, in the big things but also importantly the little, everyday things. It's the philosophy that could lead Horace to write:

Carpe diem!

which is usually translated as "Seize the day!" as if it's a YOLO sentiment. (Is using YOLO still a thing??) It's not that. "Carpe" is more accurately translated as "pluck" or "harvest" because the time is ripe, right now, this day, this moment, to find pleasure. So, you don't have to make time to star gaze (although that can be rewarding in many ways). Notice the way the sun plays through the leaves as you walk to or from school. Feel the sun (when it's warm) on your face. Take pleasure in whatever learning you *can* achieve at school whether in your formal classes or by exploring online or in the library. Begin to notice where you can feel gratitude, too. Epicurus places an emphasis on feeling gratitude, even for little things. (Confession: I tend to say "Thank you" out loud when the alarm goes off in my car if I still have the keys in the ignition when I open the door. I am grateful for the engineer that decided to put that feature in so I don't lock my keys in my car! I realize it's a little strange for me to do this maybe, but it works for me.)

You'll see a lot of deep philosophical discussions on this forum and exploration of ancient Greek and Latin texts, etc., and that's great. I take pleasure in all that.

However, for me, Epicurus gave us a practical philosophy, rooted in the everyday experience of human beings, and made it accessible to everyone - otherwise it would not have spread across the ancient world in city after city. At its core, his philosophy is about personal responsibility for actions taken and taking pleasure in the everyday living of our lives.

I'll end with a quote of Epicurus's opening line in his letter to his student Menoikeus:

"Neither must one who is young delay in loving and pursuing wisdom; nor should one who is old grow weary of loving and pursuing wisdom; because it is neither out of season nor untimely for the health of the mind." It's never out of season, nor too early, nor too late. No one is neither too young nor too old to practice philosophy.

Thank you again for engaging on the forum. You've made some great posts, asked a lot of great questions, and I look forward to reading more from you!