Posts by Don

Quote from Cassius

Especially since in the end the Platonists don't replace the doubt with answers, but with apocryphal methods of syllogistic logic to which they lay claim to be the experts and which is beyond the understanding of all except their initiates.

Initiating questioning is usually good, but I do not sense that the Platonists and Pyrrhonistz et al were acting in good faith

I find this interesting. Plato's initial philosophy goes directly back to Socrates. I have major problems with Sōkratēs (let's give him his true name). The gadfly was a terrible husband, neglectful (at best!) father, and general pain in the ... neck. His questioning has been presented as a way of "getting at the truth" but was it really that? He seems to argue for argument's sake, twisting people in knots... And leaving them there. He took no position, and turned those around who did! It certainly sounds like he had some charisma. He was clever. But it seems like the whole "all Western philosophy is a footnote to Plato/Socrates" is very sad and the ultimate missed opportunity

As for Pyrrho, here's his bio from Diogenes Laertius:

Diogenes Laertius, Lives of Eminent Philosophers, BOOK IX, Chapter 11. PYRRHO (c. 360-270 b.c.)

In fact, check out verse 70 (emphasis added):

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Besides these, Pyrrho's pupils included Hecataeus of Abdera, Timon of Phlius, author of the Silli, of whom more anon, and also Nausiphanes of Teos, said by some to have been a teacher of Epicurus. All these were called Pyrrhoneans after the name of their master, but Aporetics, Sceptics, Ephectics, and even Zetetics, from their principles, if we may call them such-- [70] Zetetics or seekers because they were ever seeking truth, Sceptics or inquirers because they were always looking for a solution and never finding one, Ephectics or doubters because of the state of mind which followed their inquiry, I mean, suspense of judgement, and finally Aporetics or those in perplexity, for not only they but even the dogmatic philosophers themselves in their turn were often perplexed.

I'm becoming more convinced of the significance of the juxtaposition of δογματιεῖν (dogmatiein) and ἀπορήσειν (aporēsein) after looking at those references. If Diogenes Laertius was copying from some Epicurean text for those characteristics, it seems there was a definite contrast being made between those who δογματιεῖν and those who ἀπορήσειν.

Quote from Cassius

we're acting in good faith.

Were or weren't?

Also

L. Castagnoli, 'Aporia and inquiry in Ancient Pyrrhonism’, for V. Politis, G. Karamanolis (eds.), The Aporetic Tradition in Ancient Philosophy, Cambridge University Press, 2017, pp. 205-227.

L. Castagnoli, 'Aporia and inquiry in Ancient Pyrrhonism’, for V. Politis, G. Karamanolis (eds.), The Aporetic Tradition in Ancient Philosophy, Cambridge…

www.academia.edu

Compare aporia (from ἀπορήσειν ) and its connection to Plato:

Aporia - Wikipedia

The Socratic aporia in ancient skepticism

The study of the figure of Socrates is necessary not only for understanding the work of Plato and the platonists of every time, where it is a fundamental…

www.academia.edu

Y'all brought up the "the sage will be dogmatic" which I found interesting when doing my translation:

I find it very interesting that that "δογματιεῖν (dogmatiein)" is juxtaposed with "ἀπορήσειν (aprēsein)" which seems to dovetail exactly with what you all are discussing.

Literally, the "dogmatizer" will make a decision; the "aporēsizer" (to coin a term) will remain puzzled and not come to any decision. I would like to see ἀπορήσειν was applied to Skeptic philosophy.

Quote from smoothiekiwi

It’s evident that we should be cautious when trusting our senses- sometimes they can lie.

I would rephrase that as "It’s evident that we should be cautious when interpreting our senses - we can sometimes lie to ourselves (often unknowingly).

Quote from Nate

Temperance, Liberality, Proper Pride, Good Temper, Truthfulness, Ready Wit, Friendliness, and Righteous Indignation are always virtues for Aristotle, even if adherence to those virtues leads to evil consequences

Ah! So, the Virtues themselves are the Mean per Aristotle! Thanks for that!

The myth of the eight-hour sleep

Sleeping in one eight-hour chunk is a very recent phenomenon, and lying awake at night could be good for you, according to scientists and historians.

www.bbc.com

Segmented Sleep in Preindustrial Societies

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Biphasic_and_polyphasic_sleep#%3A%7E%3Atext%3DBiphasic_sleep_%28or_diphasic%2C_bifurcated%2Cof_sleep_within_24_hours.?wprov=sfla1

https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/sleepl…-may-be-natural

Quote from Cassius

For me the subject of empathy always comes down to: The "empath" episode of Stat trek the original series

For those not up on their Star Trek original episodes: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Empath?wprov=sfla1

Is empathy what we're talking about, too?

I was looking at Sedley's paper for something else and came across this:

Quote

According to Diogenes Laertius (X 31), the Canon gave the three criteria as being sensations, προλεψεις, and feelings. Cicero's translation of this phrase shows that there is no significance; except perhaps a grammatical one, in Diogenes' omission of the article before προλεψεις. I mention this because Furley and Rist have deduced from it that προλεψεις were lumped together with sensations as constituting a single category. Its inclusion of προλεψεις as truth-criteria dates the Canon at any rate later than the Letter to Herodotus, according to the principle established above. It may well also be significant that the metaphor of κανων, meaning a truth-criterion, does not occur in the fragments of On Nature Books I-XV, or in the Letter to Herodotus, but is found frequently in the writings which we have already established to belong after 300 B.C.71

This should help dispel the mystification created by Diogenes Laertius' observation that the Epicureans add φανταστικαι επιβολαι της διάνοιας as truth-criteria, which has appeared to many to conflict with Epicurus' own acceptance of these 'image-making mental acts of concentration ' as virtual truth-criteria in the Letter to Herodotus 79 and in KD XXIV. If we assign an early date not only to the Letter to Herodotus but also to KD XXIV, the most satisfactory solution will be that when he came to develop the notion of προλεψεις in the following years he subsumed under it certain truth-criteria to which he had previously granted an independent validity. We have already observed that the 'fundamental meaning of a word ' became an element in the broader concept of προλεψεις ; and the same goes also for the φανταστικαι επιβολαι της διάνοιας , without which we could not visualise things at will, and consequently could have no generalised conceptions at all. Thus when he came to write the Canon he had downgraded φανταστικαι επιβολαι της διάνοιας in favour of προλεψεις. And if later Epicureans chose to upgrade them once more to the status of criteria, they had good authority in their master's early works for so doing. (p.16)

Sedley's paper is available on Academia.edu: https://www.academia.edu/resource/work/4310042

Quote from Kalosyni

one's own pleasure must be set aside for these goals. For example, pursuing the perfection of a virtuoso violinist, a prima ballerina, or an olympic champion

The question of "Does this bring me pleasure?" can only be answered by those violinists, ballerinas, and champions. In many if not most cases, I would think they'd have to answer "yes."

Pity per JRR Tolkien not Nietzsche:

Pity + Mercy = Compassion? or something else?

I have to say I like the "Do not be too eager to deal out death in judgement. For even the very wise cannot see all ends." I don't know whether it's Epicurean or not, but that's some good wordsmithing imho on the part of JRRT.

For background on Pandora, I can't recommend more highly Natalie Haynes entertaining episode:

BBC Radio 4 - Natalie Haynes Stands Up for the Classics, Series 7, Pandora

A mythological equivalent to Eve with a bit of Sleeping Beauty thrown in. With Edith Hall

www.bbc.co.uk

She also literally wrote the book on Pandora:

Pandora's Jar by Natalie Haynes review – ancient misogyny

The writer and broadcaster rescues the reputation of the women demonised in classical literature in this erudite and funny study

www.theguardian.com

Quote from Epicurus

...even though some things happen by necessity, some by chance, and some by our own power, for although necessity is beyond our control, they see that chance is unstable and there is no other master beyond themselves, so that praise and its opposite are inseparably connected to themselves. [134] Because of this, it is better to follow the stories of the gods than to be enslaved by the deterministic decrees of the old natural philosophers, because necessity is not moved by prayer...

Quote from Joshua

Quote

Ep.1p.11U. (pl.), al.

This looks to me like a citation to Usener's Epicurea, no?

That's what I thought but "Usener 11" doesn't seem to line up with anything.

The only thing I've found do far is this Vatican Saying :

LXVI. Let us show our feeling for our lost friends not by lamentation but by meditation.

*LXVI. Συμπαθωμεν τοις φίλοις ου θρηνουντες αλλά φροντιζοντες.

[Sympathōmen tois philois ou thrēnountes alla phrontizontes]

Bailey commentary:

"LXVI. Usener is probably right in holding that this fragment cannot refer to sympathy with living friends (θρηνουντες is against that), but to

feeling for friends who are dead The true Epicurean will not idly lament their death, but meditate on their lives. Compare PD11."

Συμπαθωμεν is a verb. "Let us 'sympathize'"

θρηνουντες refers to wailing, singing a dirge, lamenting.

φροντιζουντες connotes reflection on, giving thought to...

Henry George Liddell, Robert Scott, A Greek-English Lexicon, Φ φ, , φρι_κ-ώδης , φροντ-ίζω

Quote from Scott

His focus was more on pleasure, not on escaping pain, right?

That's certainly my take.

You bring up a good point, Scott . We technically dealing with 3 different things that sometimes get conflated:

• compassion
• sympathy
• empathy

Common language sometimes sees those as synonyms, but you're right to focus on the distinctions.

I found it interesting that the LSJ specifically reference the philosophy of Epicurus in its definition of sympatheia:

Henry George Liddell, Robert Scott, A Greek-English Lexicon, συμπάθ-εια

"in the Philosophy of Epicurus, corresponding 'affection' or quality, affinity, Ep.1p.11U. (pl.), al."

I'm not sure what that citation to Epicurus means

I seem to remember reading somewhere (a while ago!) that the predominant ethos in ancient Greece was to do everything you could for your friends and associates and do everything you could to crush your enemies. The world was divided into friends/enemies.

That being said, Diogenes of Oenoanda's inscription was specifically designed to spread the "good news" of Epicurus to all who came in contact with it:

καὶ νῦν̣ ̣κ̣αὶ ἀεὶ πᾶσιν Ἕλλησι κ[αὶ] βαρβάροις "both now and always for all Greeks and barbarians (non-Greeks)"

We have Janko's book in the library. I'll have to check on this one, Joshua.