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Posts by Don

New Graphics: Are You On Team Epicurus? | Comparison Chart: Epicurus vs. Other Philosophies | Chart Of Key Epicurean Quotations | Accelerating Study Of Canonics Through Philodemus' "On Methods Of Inference" | Note to all users: If you have a problem posting in any forum, please message Cassius  

  • The Twelve Fundamentals - Discussion on Lucretius Today Podcast

    • Don
    • June 20, 2022 at 5:03 PM

    Okay, since I couldn't find anything in DeWitt or in Clay to satisfy me, I went through and picked out ALL of the uses of the word στοιχεῖον (as in Δώδεκα στοιχείωσις) and its variations within Diogenes Laertius, Book X. It's used 5 times within the letter to Herodotus (the most within Book X). I've included both the Greek and English (Hicks) from the Perseus Project below for everyone's inspection. Unfortunately, I have not had time (nor do I plan to take the time!) to go and search within Philodemus or the extant On Nature fragments. Sorry. Life is too short ;)

    (30) Canonic forms the introduction to the system and is contained in a single work entitled The Canon. The physical part includes the entire theory of Nature : it is contained in the thirty-seven books Of Nature and, **in a summary form, in the letters.** (**καὶ ταῖς ἐπιστολαῖς κατὰ στοιχεῖον**)

    The usual arrangement, however, is to conjoin canonic with physics, and the former they call the science which deals with **the standard and the first principle, or ***the elementary part*** of philosophy (περὶ κριτηρίου (kriteriou) καὶ ἀρχῆς (arkhes), καὶ ***στοιχειωτικόν (stoikheiotikon)***), while physics proper, they say, deals with becoming and perishing and with nature.

    (34) They affirm that there are two states of feeling, pleasure and pain, which arise in every animate being, and that the one is favourable and the other hostile to that being, and by their means choice and avoidance are determined; and that there are two kinds of inquiry, the one concerned with things, the other with nothing but words.So much, then, for his division and **criterion in their main outline**. (καὶ τοῦ κριτηρίου στοιχειωδῶς.)

    From the Letter to Herodotus:

    (35) Those who have made some advance in the survey of the entire system ought to fix in their minds **under the principal headings an *elementary outline* of the whole treatment of the subject** (ἐν τῇ τῶν ὅλων ἐπιβλέψει τὸν τύπον τῆς ὅλης πραγματείας τὸν *κατεστοιχειωμένον*). For a comprehensive view is often required, the details but seldom.

    (36) ...since it is the privilege of the mature student to make a ready use of his conceptions by referring every one of them to ***elementary facts and simple terms** (πρὸς ἁπλᾶ στοιχειώματα καὶ φωνὰς (apla phonas "simple terms")).

    (37) Hence, since such a course is of service to all who take up natural science, I, who devote to the subject my continuous energy and reap the calm enjoyment of a life like this, have prepared for you just such **an epitome *and manual* of the doctrines as a whole** (τινὰ ἐπιτομὴν (epitome) *καὶ στοιχείωσιν* τῶν ὅλων δοξῶν).

    (44) But that colour varies with the arrangement of the atoms he states in his "Twelve Rudiments" (τὸ δὲ χρῶμα παρὰ τὴν θέσιν τῶν ἀτόμων ἀλλάττεσθαι ἐν ταῖς Δώδεκα στοιχειώσεσί φησι.)

    (47) For if it changed its direction, that would be equivalent to its meeting with resistance, even if up to that point we allow nothing to impede the rate of its flight. **This is an *elementary fact* which in itself is well worth bearing in mind.** (χρήσιμον δὴ καὶ τοῦτο κατασχεῖν *τὸ στοιχεῖον*.) (NOTE: This is the one mention that gets close to stating this is one of the elements: Something like "Atoms don't change their direction or speed"??)

    From Letter to Pythocles:

    (86) We do not seek to wrest by force what is impossible, nor to understand all matters equally well, nor make our treatment always as clear as when we discuss human life or explain the principles of physics in general--for instance, that the whole of being consists of bodies and intangible nature, or **that *the ultimate elements of things* are indivisible** (ὅτι ἄτομα *<τὰ> στοιχεῖα*), or any other proposition which admits only one explanation of the phenomena to be possible.

    From Letter to Menoikeus:

    (123) Those things which without ceasing I have declared unto thee, those do, and exercise thyself therein, holding them to be ** *the elements* of right life**.(στοιχεῖα τοῦ καλῶς ζῆν)


    Clay says "His (Epicurus's) language makes it plain that he regarded the nine propositions set out earlier in the letter as stoicheia... "kai de touto" looks back to the stoicheiomata and their usefulness." I'm still unclear on how Clay is slicing the Letter to Herodotus to come up with only nine stoicheiomata, and the number is clearly 12 "elements." So, why would Epicurus only include 9?

    I *think* I'm willing to accept that the Δώδεκα στοιχείωσις *probably* referred to the physics of Epicurus, BUT in Section 30, Diogenes Laertius specifically talks about Canonic being the στοιχεῖον... So, again, as I did earlier, I ask: Did the Twelve Elements refer to the atoms, void, physics stuff or did it refer back to the use of the senses within the canonic? Both DeWitt and Clay seem too self-assured for my full endorsement of their lists.

    And I see what Clay was trying to do, I think, in calling the article after Epicurus's will. He's trying to say that even though Hermarchus is his philosophical heir, it is actually Lucretius who ends up being his "heir" because we get Lucretius's whole poem to carry on Epicurus's philosophy. Yeah, that's a little arcane.

    Thoughts welcome!!

  • The Twelve Fundamentals - Discussion on Lucretius Today Podcast

    • Don
    • June 20, 2022 at 12:50 PM

    I took a look through my copy of Dewitt and he goes on and on about the Twelve Elementary Principles... But with what authority? He just states, with no citation to an actual text, things like:

    The procedure was regularly from the general to the particular. The truths of Physics were reduced to Twelve Elementary Principles. These

    corresponded to a general map, affording a panoramic view of the nature of things. Of the Twelve Principles the most important was the third:" The universe consists of atoms and void."

    How can he state this so matter-of-factly? What is her basing this statement on? How does he know this is the third principle? Did I miss Lucretius expounding the Δώδεκα στοιχειώσεσί? I've tried to get just twelve principles from the letter to Herodotus and it's not easily done. Without question, Epicurus wrote a work called Δώδεκα στοιχειώσεσί but Diogenes doesn't list it among the most important works of the philosopher. Is it a later compilation? And are we sure it's about physics as I asked in my previous post. I respect Dewitt's scholarship (mostly), but many times he flies off in flights of fancy with, from what I can see, little to back it up.

  • Ancient Greek Festivals and Rites

    • Don
    • June 20, 2022 at 10:22 AM
    Apollo, Helios, and the Solstices in the Athenian, Delphian, and Delian Calendars
    Apollo, Helios, and the Solstices in the Athenian, Delphian, and Delian Calendars
    www.academia.edu

    Looks like Eratosthenes did his experiment on the summer solstice:

    Eratosthenes of Cyrene (article) | Khan Academy
    www.khanacademy.org

    Also

    Ancient Greek Calendars
    Ancient Greek Calendars
    www.academia.edu

    Adding for future reference:

    https://www.google.com/books/edition/Greek_and_Roman_Chronology/W_gaUJ4wjicC?hl=en

  • The Twelve Fundamentals - Discussion on Lucretius Today Podcast

    • Don
    • June 20, 2022 at 9:15 AM
    Quote from Nate

    Clay also has a slightly different version in Lucretius and Epicurus, but I do not have access to it. They are essentially the same, but Clay never presents the same list in the same order twice

    That's the primary problem with trying to reconstruct a lost text with NO surviving fragments. My understanding is that the ONLY reference to the "Twelve Fundamentals" is the one in Diogenes Laertius: colour varies with the arrangement of the atoms he states in his "Twelve Rudiments". Δώδεκα στοιχειώσεσί ; further, that they are not of any and every size ; at any rate no atom has ever been seen by our sense.

    Epicurus uses στοιχεῖα in the letter to Menoikeus (123) to refer to the elements of the noble/good life: στοιχεῖα τοῦ καλῶς ζῆν.

    Henry George Liddell, Robert Scott, A Greek-English Lexicon, στοιχεί-ωσις

    Henry George Liddell, Robert Scott, A Greek-English Lexicon, στοιχεῖον

    Without at least some fragments, there's no way to know what the Δώδεκα στοιχειώσεσί discussed. Who knows? Epicurus could have been talking about something else and brought in the color and size of atoms to make a point about our senses. Maybe the Δώδεκα στοιχειώσεσί were about those who say we can't trust our senses and Epicurus was laying out why we could. There's no way to know again without at least some fragments of papyrus or other references.

    PS. The only reference to a "twelve" of anything in the surviving fragments of Diogenes' wall inscription is: For if the pain takes a turn for] the worse, it no longer continues severely, but the crisis comes and passes away in the shortest time; while if it is relieved, it ushers the creature to health. What then, in the name of the twelve gods, is terrible about that? Or how can we justly bring a complaint against nature, if someone who has lived for so many years and so many months and so many days [comes to his last day?]

    PPS: If I'm missing a key reference or textual fragment of the Δώδεκα στοιχειώσεσί, please don't hesitate to point me towards it! If love to be wrong about the one reference in Laertius.

  • Pleasures of the soul, Values, Meaningful Life

    • Don
    • June 19, 2022 at 7:29 PM
    Quote from Matteng

    Stoic: Hero who embraces every problem / challenge.

    And why do they embrace every problem or challenge?

    Because it gives them pleasure to do so (not that they would admit it, of course)

  • The Importance of the Sense of Smell

    • Don
    • June 19, 2022 at 8:22 AM
    Quote from camotero

    very digestible.

    Or "very pleasant smelling" to stay with the theme :)

    Very interesting. It's looks like her work also includes research on the brain and mindfulness as well as the effect of emotion. Definitely want to explore.

    It's like like it might be possible to run the you tube transcript through Google translate. Not the best option, but I'll explore later (unless

  • Pleasures of the soul, Values, Meaningful Life

    • Don
    • June 18, 2022 at 7:11 PM

    Welcome to the Garden, Matteng :)

    I'll try and address a couple of your questions:

    Quote from Matteng

    if Pleasure involves personal values besides the "pure bodily" pleasures.

    Pleasure includes both pleasure felt in the body and pleasure felt in the mind, although that's a little misleading in that all pleasure in some sense is both in the mind and body. We need both a body and mind too experience pleasure.

    Quote from Matteng

    I see virtue as a means to fulfill these values which give me pleasure (maybe thats the answer, a wide interpratation of pleasure ? )

    The virtues (ex. justice, morality, courage, etc.) are *only* means to leading a pleasurable life. They have no value - other than that - in and off themselves. There is no such thing as "virtue for virtue's sake" in Epicurus's philosophy. The virtues do not fulfill any other purpose than as a means to a pleasurable life.

    Quote from Matteng

    -I am not addicted to something/someone

    -value friends/familiy, progress in society,

    -have compassiong for humans and animals

    -love to learn new things and philosophy (like Epicurus), learning about nature, value/ like to improve abilities

    If those activities provide you a sense of pleasure, that's one track then. Preface each of them with "I take pleasure in..." and see how that sounds to you.

    I'll stop there and see what others may add.

  • June 22nd, 2022 Epicurean Zoom Gathering

    • Don
    • June 18, 2022 at 7:39 AM

    Oh, and, of course, @Nate 's PD compilation *again* (I'll be bringing that up everytime a PD discussion comes up ;) )

  • June 22nd, 2022 Epicurean Zoom Gathering

    • Don
    • June 18, 2022 at 5:45 AM

    Take a look at this one too:

    Principal Doctrine 10 - Epicurus Wiki

  • June 22nd, 2022 Epicurean Zoom Gathering

    • Don
    • June 17, 2022 at 8:51 PM

    I may have to join in on this one in lieu of the 20th. Hmmm. I have some definite thoughts on PD10 and Menoikeus 131. I'll register at Eventbrite just in case I'm able to attend.

  • Implications and Translations of Variations of Texts Referencing "Appearances" (As In The Size Of The Sun)

    • Don
    • June 17, 2022 at 2:49 PM
    Quote from Cassius

    At first glance those definitions would seem to be "positive" in the sense of "reveal" rather than hinting at illusions or error.

    Or things revealed to the senses.

    That's also the Greek word related to English phenomenon.

  • Implications and Translations of Variations of Texts Referencing "Appearances" (As In The Size Of The Sun)

    • Don
    • June 17, 2022 at 1:43 PM

    I'm looking forward to digging into this at some point. For now, several of those instances appear (no pun intended, honestly) to connect to φαίνω:

    Henry George Liddell, Robert Scott, A Greek-English Lexicon, φαίνω

  • Text And Reference Links - Lucretius Today Podcast

    • Don
    • June 17, 2022 at 6:19 AM

    Stallings was my first full read through.

  • Text And Reference Links - Lucretius Today Podcast

    • Don
    • June 16, 2022 at 8:41 PM

    LOL! ^^ Well, okay... As long as you don't have any strong feelings....

    I'm going to have to try to weave daedel into casual conversation this coming week.

    PS. https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/dae…0About%20daedal

  • Text And Reference Links - Lucretius Today Podcast

    • Don
    • June 16, 2022 at 7:44 PM

    Did you want to link to Perseus (Leonard)?

    Lucretius, De Rerum Natura, BOOK I, line 1

  • Nate's "Allegory of the Oasis" Graphic

    • Don
    • June 16, 2022 at 6:39 PM
    Quote from Cassius

    just updating the thread with the current graphic

    That. :)

  • Nate's "Allegory of the Oasis" Graphic

    • Don
    • June 16, 2022 at 4:15 PM

    Nate's "Allegory of the Oasis" - Updated 2019

  • Any Application of Epicurean Theology to the Christan God(s)

    • Don
    • June 16, 2022 at 12:51 PM

    FYI

    Thomas Young (American revolutionary) - Wikipedia

  • Any Application of Epicurean Theology to the Christan God(s)

    • Don
    • June 16, 2022 at 12:27 PM
    Quote from Nate

    Nature's God: The Heretical Origins of the American Republic by Matthew Stewart. It is a dense read, but very informative, and I recommend it.

    Added to my Good Reads "Want to read" list! Thanks!

  • Any Application of Epicurean Theology to the Christan God(s)

    • Don
    • June 16, 2022 at 11:13 AM
    Quote from Cassius

    Right! Supplemental home study is the main thing I was thinking about,

    That's what I suspected. Nonetheless, figured I'd go off on homeschooling.

    Quote from Cassius

    to some extent we do make lots of choices for our children

    Fully agree! When it comes to some choices we make, it's best to make it as organic as possible though. Let the children be participants instead of captives. Make the pedagogy experiential and interactive instead of the "sage on the stage."

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