Posts by Don

Quote from Cassius

PD01 The blessed and immortal nature knows no trouble itself, nor causes trouble to any other, so that it is never constrained by anger or favor. For all such things exist only in the weak.

I'm adding in PD01 along with its ancient scholia commentary:

Τὸ μακάριον καὶ ἄφθαρτον οὔτε αὐτὸ πράγματα ἔχει οὔτε ἄλλῳ παρέχει, ὥστε οὔτε ὀργαῖς οὔτε χάρισι συνέχεται: ἐν ἀσθενεῖ γὰρ πᾶν τὸ τοιοῦτον. [ἐν ἄλλοις δέ φησι τοὺς θεοὺς λόγῳ θεωρητούς, οὓς μὲν κατ᾽ ἀριθμὸν ὑφεστῶτας, οὓς δὲ καθ᾽ ὁμοείδειαν ἐκ τῆς συνεχοῦς ἐπιρρύσεως τῶν ὁμοίων εἰδώλων ἐπὶ τὸ αὐτὸ ἀποτετελεσμένωι ἀνθρωποειδῶς.]

Perseus Project translation: 1. A blessed and eternal being has no trouble himself and brings no trouble upon any other being ; hence he is exempt from movements of anger and partiality, for every such movement implies weakness [Elsewhere he says that the gods are discernible by reason alone, some being numerically distinct, while others result uniformly from the continuous influx of similar images directed to the same spot and in human form.]

Quote from Cassius

So neither extreme of relativism or absolutism is correct, but on the other hand it doesn't help much to say that the truth is "in the middle."

Oh, I wasn't even going the absolute/relative track in my mind. I just meant that one "feels" eudaimonia. And eudaimonia is, by definition, a pleasurable feeling.

You're going deeper than I was

So, both Kalosyni and Joshua are right, depending on one's perspective. While eudaimonia is a feeling, and - in analyzing it - the feeling is pleasure.

If I may be so bold as to add in my contribution to the discussion of the letter:

Quote

[123] And, Menoikeus, I was continuously exhorting you to practice, to study, and to meditate on those things which I state distinctly to be the essential elements of a noble, beautiful, and virtuous life. First, believe that the god is a blessed and imperishable thing as is the common, general understanding of the god. You, Menoikeus, believe everything about which a god is able to preserve its own imperishability and blessedness for itself. Do not attribute anything foreign to its incorruptibility or incongruous with the blessedness of the god! Gods exist, and the knowledge of them is manifest to the mind's eye. The gods do not exist in the way that the 'hoi polloi' believe them to, because they do not perceive what maintains the gods. One is not impious who does not take up the gods of the hoi polloi; but the one who attributes the beliefs of the hoi polloi to the gods. [124] For what they believe are not prolepses, but rather the judgements of the hoi polloi concerning the gods which are false, hasty assumptions. So, they believe the greatest evils are brought to the wicked from the gods as well as the greatest aid to the good, because the hoi polloi are believing that the gods accept those who resemble themselves who are similar through all excellences and goodness; all those not of their sort are strange and alien.

Here also is a link to the full commentary to these sections as well:

Letter To Menoikeus: A New Translation With Commentary : Don Boozer : Free Download, Borrow, and Streaming : Internet Archive

A new translation of the Letter to Menoikeus (Menoeceus) by Epicurus with commentary.

archive.org

Quote from Joshua

Always for a Tolkien meme

So... "All we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given us." Gandalf (JRR Tolkien), The Fellowship of the Ring.

GREAT episode! I even stayed up late listening Excellent thought-provoking, conversation! Well done!!

The word used in the first section is φιλοσοφείν , the infinitive of the verb φιλοσοφέω 'philosopheō'

The word literally is composed of:

φίλος philos φιλιά philia "love/friendship" (deeper than this but we'll let it stand for now)

+

σοφια sophia "wisdom"

Philos/philia is the same component in Philadelphia "love + brotherly"

As well as things like anglophile "England-love"

& philanthropy "love (of) human beings ('anthropoi')"

Henry George Liddell, Robert Scott, A Greek-English Lexicon, φι^λί-α

The word philia has more of a connotation of friendly love, affection, friendship, distinct from ἔρως erōs "erotic, romantic love"

So, to be philosopheō had the sense to me if having an affection for wisdom, being close friends with wisdom.

And here are the definitions of sophia:

σοφία

1. skill in handicraft and art, Il., Xen., etc.:— ς. τινός or περί τινος knowledge of, acquaintance with a thing, Plat.

2. sound judgment, intelligence, practical wisdom, such as was attributed to the Seven Wise men, Theogn., Hdt.; in not so good a sense, cunning, shrewdness, craft, like δεινότης, Hdt.

Quote from elli

the latter word "mēnis" had to do with the anger of gods

... and Achilles, too

μῆνιν ἄειδε θεὰ Πηληϊάδεω Ἀχιλῆος

Of the wrath of Achilles, Peleus' son, sing, O goddess...

(Iliad, Book 1, line 1)

Quote from Kalosyni

From Tufts website:

"Writings that urged young men to study philosophy formed a distinct literary genre among the ancients under the name “protreptics.” The Epistle to Menoeceus of Epicurus is an extant example."

And this article: "Ancient Philosophic Protreptic and the Problem of Persuasive Genres"

https://www.jstor.org/stable/10.1525/rh.1986.4.4.309

Quote

"The protereptic has as its explicit aim the winning of a student for philosophy. The student must be won at different levels--for the love of wisdom generally, for the choice of a particular school, for full commitment to the rigors of an advanced discipline."

FYI:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Protrepsi…sis?wprov=sfla1

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I found this page from the Center for Hellenic Studies at Harvard interesting in explaining the differences and similarities between μένος (menos) and μήνις (mēnis):

Core Vocab: menos | The Kosmos Society

I did not realize there were several characters from Greek mythology named Menoikeus:

Menoeceus - Wikipedia

I also like Elli's alternative etymology using μένω instead of μενος for the first element of the name. That adds a nice twist!

Quote from Kalosyni

Found this on Wikipedia (which lists two ways to pronounce the name):

Menoeceus (/məˈniːsiəs, -sjuːs/;

Ancient Greek: Μενοικεύς Menoikeús "strength of the house" derived from menos "strength" and oikos "house"

Ah, the idiosyncrasies of pronunciation.

The məˈniːsiəs is an English pronunciation of the Latin orthography. (Stress on the NI (nee))

Classical Latin would be something like 'men-oy-keh-oos"

Which is directly parallel with the Ancient Greek pronunciation of Μενοικεύς and my preferred pronunciation.

And Modern Greek or even mid- to late Koine Greek pronunciation would probably be something like 'men-ee-kefs' (yes, that's how much pronunciation has changed in the last several thousand years!)

The Official Wheelock's Latin Series Website

For Ancient Greek pronunciation, there are several YouTube channels including ScorpioMartianus and Podium-Arts.

PS

Μενοικεύς - Wiktionary

Pronunciation starting with Classical to Modern

/me.noi̯.kěu̯s/ → /me.nyˈkeɸs/ → /me.niˈcefs/

I would generally concur with Joshua with the caveat that, in my opinion, Epicureans would want both stability and freedom which is a difficult balance to achieve. So, I'd have to posit that they wouldn't want a totalitarian form of government that requires conformity among its citizens. However, I find it hard to think that they'd prefer a full true democracy (albeit without women, slaves, etc., participation) like ancient Athens where political positions were determined by lottery. I could see them being alright with a benevolent monarch but then you're at the mercy of who's next in line.

It's a good thought experiment, Cassius . Those articles and papers on Philodemus and Epicurus are tantalizing. There's not a lot to go on.

The Closing Columns of Philodemus’ ON THE GOOD KING ACCORDING TO HOMER, PHERC. 1507 COLS. 95-98 (= COLS. 40-43 DORANDI)

This article presents a reedition of the nal columns of Philodemus’ On the Good King According to Homer (columns 95-98 = cols. 40-43 Dorandi). In the nal…

www.academia.edu

Haven't read but looked pertinent possibly. Has actual text and translation from Philodemus "On the Good King According to Homer"

Henry George Liddell, Robert Scott, A Greek-English Lexicon, θερα^π-εύω

Fun fact:

θεραπεύω (therapeuō) is where the English words "therapeutic, therapy" come from.

therapy | Etymology, origin and meaning of therapy by etymonline

THERAPY Meaning: "medical treatment of disease," from Modern Latin therapia, from Greek therapeia "curing, healing,… See definitions of therapy.

www.etymonline.com

therapy (n.)

1846, "medical treatment of disease," from Modern Latin therapia, from Greek therapeia "curing, healing, service done to the sick; a waiting on, service," from therapeuein "to cure, treat medically," literally "attend, do service, take care of"

@Root304 , no apologies necessary at all

Oh, and don't forget the salutation. Here's my take on that ...

The beginning of the Letter to Menoikeus comes at the very end of verse 121 in Diogenes Laertius's Lives of the Eminent Philosophers, Book X.

Verse 121: Ἐπίκουρος Μενοικεῖ χαίρειν.

"Epicurus to Menoikeus: Greetings!"

Ἐπίκουρος is, of course, Epicurus himself, author of the letter.

Μενοικεῖ

Next comes the name of the recipient - Μενοικεύς (Menoikeus) - in the dative case, Μενοικεῖ, signifying "to/for…" You most likely see the name of the recipient most often referred to as Menoeceus. This is simply the Latin form of his name. However, he was Greek! Menoeceus simply results from the penchant for scholars to have once felt it necessary to translate everything into Latin. We’ll try to avoid that proclivity here and refer consistently to him using his transliterated Greek name: Menoikeus. I have seen references online that state Menoikeus was from Lampsacus (one of Epicurus’s former residences before coming to Athens), but I can find no authoritative source for confirming this.

χαίρειν

And finally, the salutation: χαίρειν which can be translated: Greetings, Hail, Joy(‐fully), Rejoice (as a salutation). As will be seen in 122e, this word shares a root with χαρά "joy" (one of the "kinetic" pleasures) and χάρις "gratitude, grace." See more at 122e.

Then, no other pleasantries. Epicurus gets right down to work!

It's important to remember that the letter is, unfortunately, without context. We know nothing about Menoikeus himself. We may theorize he was younger than Epicurus although this is relative to Epicurus's age. We don't know what prompted Epicurus to write the letter to him other than a desire by Menoikeus to have a summary of the ethical teachings of Epicurus. All we have, thanks to Diogenes Laertius, is the text of the letter. In some ways, this is beneficial in that this allows us to imagine Epicurus writing his letter to all of us.

Wow! I'm drunk with power! What else can I get Cassius to agree to?

You've bitten off a LOT in those first two sections!! I'd suggest aiming for everything up to "First, believe..." You have plenty to talk about up to there Once the gods walk on stage, you're in deep!

I'll see what I can do to paste, but there's always just posting that link to the PDF.