Basically, PD05 says, to me, you can't live pleasantly without living virtuously BUT virtue is not the end/goal. The virtues contribute to living pleasantly, and living pleasantly is a result of living virtuously. But one's eye should always be on the pleasant life lived.
Posts by Don
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Great paper! Thanks for sharing. The take on the gods near the end seems spot on from my perspective:
QuoteThe gods exist, but because they are ‘blessed and indestructible’ they need not feel gratitude. Gratitude indicates weakness and is relevant only for those who have deficiencies and thus need others to help or benefit them. That humans feel anger or gratitude reveals our limitations and dependency. So, if wisdom enables a human to ‘live as a god among men’ (Ep. Men. 135), would not a wise and virtuous person also have no need for gratitude?
The answer, it seems to me, must be ‘no.’ The fact that gods feel no gratitude does not mean that we should not; though Epicureans seek to emulate the gods’ tranquility and happiness, no human can attain their invulnerability or immortality, and any desire to do so would be unnatural and empty.
It is important to remember, in this context, that for Epicureans all virtues—like moderation and justice—are defined not absolutely, by an independent objective standard. They are instrumentally valuable because they contribute to a pleasurable life, and so what counts as virtuous in a case depends on what in fact produces happiness (Ep. Men. 132).
...for indestructible and perfectly self-sufficient gods, gratitude is not a value, while for vulnerable and deficient humans, it is. No matter how wise we become, we cannot eliminate these facts about what we are. Gratitude is part of how we achieve what limited and imperfect self-sufficiency we can obtain.
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There's a pleasurable aspect to gratitude as well, such as the gratitude of waking up to a beautiful day in a beautiful place. Whereas normal folk may feel a pleasing sense of gratitude in this case, apparently a god would experience the pleasure but no gratitude.
I *think* part of it is that a god is literally by definition filled with maximum pleasure already and only would experience the variety of pleasure expressed in PD18.
Quote from PD18Pleasure in the flesh admits no increase when once the pain of want has been removed; after that it only admits of variation...
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Once one has children, keeping one's calm becomes a natural and necessary desire. When looked at in this way, it bumps it up in the list of priorities to be dealt with.
What's Epicurean for "Amen!"
τῷ ὄντι! (tō onti)
how are τῷ ὄντι doing? - Textkit Greek and Latin Forums
Indeed! Really! In fact! In reality!
Amen is actually ancient Greek ἀμήν (amḗn), from Biblical Hebrew אָמֵן (ʾāmēn, “certainly, verily”) but I like τῷ ὄντι! for our purposes better.
Of course, there's always By Zeus!
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monon hedone, monon aponia, monon ataraxia?
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Once one has children, keeping one's calm becomes a natural and necessary desire. When looked at in this way, it bumps it up in the list of priorities to be dealt with.
What's Epicurean for "Amen!"
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I maintain that ataraxia is a sort of mindset. The metaphor is sailing on calm seas. It affects how we approach other choices. To me, ataraxia is the eye in the hurricane. We can have a tranquil mind in the midst of chaos. It's "katastematic" because it is a state of being arising from within. As opposed to the pleasure or pain that comes from activities.
I fully agree that parenting can be chaotic, but we have the choice to deal with it calmly (at least internally) or with anger or impatience. And sometimes we will be angry but we need to know if it does, does it come from a place of correcting behavior of children or protection of them or from some other place?
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don't think Epicurus expected that naming "pleasure" the guide of life could ever be interpreted as a call for the draining of all active physical and mental pleasures from life .
Quote from Epicurus67. I do not think I could conceive of the good without the joys of taste, of sex, of hearing, and without the pleasing motions caused by the sight of bodies and forms.
I continue to soapbox that all pleasures are included in Epicurus's definition of pleasure/hedone; however, he also taught that we can have more confidence in pleasure that arises from within ourselves (tranquility, memory, anticipation, etc.) than that which arises from outside ourselves (sex, food, music, dance, etc.) . That which arises from within are always at hand.
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"One who is blessed/completely happy/blissful and imperishable/indestructible has no troubles themself nor causes troubles for others; as a consequence, they are affected by neither anger nor gratitude; because all this would be an indication of weakness/sickness/lack of strength."
ἀσθενεῖ
- weakness
- sickness
- moral weakness, depravity
Being affected by anger as a sickness or weakness makes sense, but why would being affected by gratitude be a sign of weakness? In the Letter to Herodotus, Epicurus wrote (10.77) "For troubles and anxieties and feelings of anger and partiality do not accord with bliss, but always imply weakness and fear and dependence upon one's neighbours." This appears to demonstrate that the negative aspects of anger or gratitude would be that it would show a lack of self-reliance / αυτάρκεια. If we needed reassurance / affirmation from others and didn't just do things because they were pleasurable, we're not truly living a blessed life.
I would answer yes to Cassius's sentiment when he says:
a "god" would be so self-sufficient that it would never experience an emotion of receiving something that it lacked previously?
PD1 refers to those who are incorruptible and completely blessed. So, we "mere" humans should show gratitude.
We need to also take into account what Diogenes Laertius reports that:
[121] Two sorts of happiness can be conceived, the one the highest possible, such as the gods enjoy, which cannot be augmented, the other admitting addition and subtraction of pleasures.
It seems there could easily be two standards when it comes to gratitude as well, one "such as the gods enjoy" and one for the rest of us who should be thankful for our pleasures that we experience.
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Some other words:
φιλία (philia)
affectionate regard, friendship, usu. betw. equals
Henry George Liddell, Robert Scott, A Greek-English Lexicon, φι^λί-α
περιχορεύει (perikhoreuei)
To dance (χορεύει) around in a circle (περί)
Henry George Liddell, Robert Scott, A Greek-English Lexicon, περιχορ-εύω
I like the connotation that the word has of dancing in a group, in a dramatic or religious chorus of dancers, not in a solitary way.
Henry George Liddell, Robert Scott, A Greek-English Lexicon, χορός
οἰκουμένην (oikoumenēn)
the inhabited world, particularly that known to the ancient Greeks: (sub-polar) Europe, (western) Asia, and (northern and Saharan) Africa
Henry George Liddell, Robert Scott, A Greek-English Lexicon, οἰκουμέν-η
κηρύττουσα (kēruttousa)
Attic form of κηρῠ́σσω (kērússō)
- To be a herald or auctioneer
- To make a proclamation as herald
- (transitive) To summon by herald
- (transitive) To proclaim, announce
- (transitive) To command someone publicly to do something (with infinitive or dative of thing)
- (New Testament) To preach the gospel
δή • (dḗ) (discourse particle) + πᾶσιν
- Adds temporal specificity: now, already
- Adds emphasis: truly, !, indeed, in truth
- Adds specificity: exactly
- Sometimes ironical: no doubt, of course
- With pronouns: of all people
- + πᾶσιν "to all, every, each"
ἐγείρεσθαι (egeiresthai)
present mediopassive infinitive of ἐγείρω (egeírō)
rouse or stir oneself, be excited by passion, etc.,
Henry George Liddell, Robert Scott, A Greek-English Lexicon, ἐγείρω
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Here's a pertinent excerpt from my letter to Menoikeus translation:
QuoteDisplay MoreAnother pivotal word here is μακαρίως which appears to have no certain etymology but seems possibly to be derived from the idea of being wealthy in a literal and/or figurative sense. The usual translation is something like "blessed, fortunate, wealthy, 'well-off'”. That being said, "happy" or as Saint-Andre says "completely happy" doesn't, in my view, provide the overall sense of satisfaction or completeness conveyed by a word like μακαρίως. Keep in mind that this is a form of the exact word used to describe the "blessed" beings talked about in Principal Doctrine 1: Τὸ μακάριον καὶ ἄφθαρτον οὔτε αὐτὸ πράγματα ἔχει οὔτε ἄλλῳ παρέχει· ὥστε οὔτε ὀργαῖς οὔτε χάρισι συνέχεται· ἐν ἀσθενεῖ γὰρ πᾶν τὸ τοιοῦτον.
"That which is blessed/completely happy/blissful and imperishable/indestructible has no troubles itself nor causes troubles for others; as a consequence, it is affected by neither anger nor gratitude; because all this would be an indication of weakness/sickness/lack of strength."
That Doctrine's μακάριον is rarely translated as simply "happy" but rather "blissful" and other superlatives like that.22,23,24
22
https://books.google.com/books?id=sPCww…ymology&f=false
23
http://www.crossmarks.com/brian/allsaintb.htm
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the last two letters of the word look different than in the above ancient Greek (in post 1 above)
The endings of ancient Greek words are very mutable: case endings, conjugations, etc.
LSJ is *the* authority for definitions, too:
Henry George Liddell, Robert Scott, A Greek-English Lexicon, Α α,
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Adjective
κρᾰ́τῐστος (kratistos) m (feminine κρᾰτῐ́στη, neuter κρᾰ́τῐστον); first/second declension
superlative degree of ᾰ̓γᾰθός (agathós): best
superlative degree of κρατύς (kratús) strongest, mightiest, most powerful
Usage notes
Used as the superlative of ᾰ̓γᾰθός (agathós), along with ἄρῐστος (áristos) and βέλτῐστος (béltistos).
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Should the last word be translated as "blessedness"?
μακαρισμόν makarismon is a form of the same word used to describe the gods in PD1: Τὸ μακάριον (makarion).
Henry George Liddell, Robert Scott, A Greek-English Lexicon, μ , μα^κα^ρ-ίνη , μα^κα^ρ-ισμός
Note that the LSJ definition cites VS52
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To my eye, Metrodorus looked younger - more youthful - than either Hermarchus or Epicurus.
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Epicurus.info : Photos - Capitoline Museum (Rome)
(Μ)ΗΤΡΟΔωΡΟC
(M)etrodōros
Looks like the stone has been repaired, splitting off the initial M.
Epicurus's beard is typically more forked while it looks like Metrodorus's was more round.
I think I've seen the Hermarchos bust referred to as Epicurus in the past, but the base clearly has Hermarchus's name and also a more rounded beard.
Hermarchus's eyes also seem more "sad" (droopy) while Epicurus seems to have a more intense gaze with his brow furrowed in the center.
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The base of this statue reads Ἕρμαρχoς Hermarchos and is the image on the book cover to the left.
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Apologies for the long introduction and again I'm grateful for what all of you do here and the knowledge you impart to continue the Epicurean tradition. Thanks!
Thank you! for the heartfelt introduction to yourself and your path. That is an excellent and eloquent first post. No apologies necessary at all for the length!
I enjoyed reading it, and you'll find a number of us here with similar backstories.Welcome to our little virtual Garden! Salve! Χαίρε!
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