Posts by Don

Quote from Matteng

we still live in an material universe without divinity or afterlife….

Well said. THAT for me is the most basic fundamental doctrine in Epicurus' physics. That's the foundation stone upon which fear of the gods and anxiety of punishment after death are dispelled. THAT'S the non-negotiable point for me. Epicurus fleshes out that point, but that's what it gets built on and what it comes back to.

Scientists can argue the details of string theory, quantum loop gravity, quantum physics, and the rest. But Matteng concisely stated the foundation.

Thread

PD24 - Commentary and Translation of PD 24

Principal Doctrine 24 (PD 24) is one of the more convoluted doctrines with multiple phrases and conjunctions. I would like to provide some commentary and break the doctrine down into manageable words and phrases for everyone to get a more coherent understanding of what Epicurus was communicating. You may also want to take a look at this doctrine’s page on the Epicurus Wiki:

First the original text:

[…]

Now, let’s break it down before we put it all back together. I’ll provide a (mostly) literal…

Don

September 2, 2020 at 11:56 PM

On the 4th leg, I wanted to bring up this extended thread we had awhile ago on PD24. It goes a little off track at the end, but the first part is on point

(Full disclosure: I have not read Hiram's essay linked above yet.)

Dolorology (PAIN) with Dr. Rachel Zoffness — alie ward

PAIN. What is it? Where does it come from? And how can we hurt less? Which hurts more, a kidney stone or heartache? Why does chronic pain persist? Can we turn…

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Not sure where to post, but this ologies episode on pain was interesting, especially about its bio-psycho-social aspects of pain. Worth a listen.

Quote from Brandenoz

Nietzsche continues to stick around

It's the moustache.

Quote from Cassius

I think a lot of the commercial appeal is 1 "Thus Spake Zarathustra" is a cool name, and (2) there's a market who want to say that they have read the philosopher who said "God is dead."

Quote from Cassius

There's a coolness factor to things like "what doesn't kill us makes us stronger" that's about as far as most people get.

Agreed on those, too.

You can buy Nietzsche and have him on your bookshelf and make people think you're countercultural.

Quote from Cassius

the smashed-version Epicurus bust (which I detest when people use rather than the many perfectly-good alternate versions that are available)

I would agree there are better alternatives, but in some ways I like the broken one as a metaphor for Epicurus has taken a beating but he's still standing, 2,000+ years on. "Bring it on! I can take it!"

I found another video where the author defends Epicurus and his philosophy against a host calling Epicurus "the worst philosopher". I haven't watched it all yet, but it seems to start strong:

I see the guest is coming out with a new book:

https://us.macmillan.com/books/9781250454256/theartofenough/

This thread had flown under my radar, so I was curious to check out its Amazon page:

Best Sellers Rank

• #318,831 in Books (See Top 100 in Books)
• #543 in Ancient Greek & Roman Philosophy
• #805 in Political Philosophy (Books)
• #1,008 in Philosophy of Ethics & Morality

Not exactly burning up the charts, even in the niche categories. Good.

And this line, evidently from the book, made me both and :

In his own time, Epicurus was a fringe thinker. He and his few followers speculated...

One of the pre-eminent schools in the ancient world that had a lineage stretching directly from Epicurus for centuries and had a presence stretching from Gaul to Asia Minor described as "fringe" and a few followers?? Disingenuous and mendacious that seems to me.

Quote from Eikadistes

I think I'd entertain the idea of "sweetness", as in, "the sweet life" or "living sweetly". It also compliments the gastronomical approach of the Epicurean school. I might also consider "delight" and "delights", but both of those import their own, cultural nuances.

Nice post. The inadequacy of translation is always going to dog us, although I usually advocate for multiple words in English to try to convey some of the nuance as opposed to using Greek untranslated.

Maybe the goal is a sweet, pleasant life after all.

Pleasure is The Supreme Good to which all points.

Welcome aboard

I firmly believe that "to be conscious" means to have a mind in a body.

I believe "to be conscious" needs a connection to the world outside oneself, needs the faculty of interoception, is inextricably integrated with sensation.

Are there degrees of consciousness? Sure, but it depends how we define the word. A baby is as conscious of itself as a being in their environment as an adult, maybe more so if you've ever experienced a baby in an uncomfortable full diaper.

Current and foreseeable AI are nowhere near this integration with the world. LLMs are never, ever, ever going to be "conscious." Will they become better at predictive modeling after they've ingested the entirety of the Internet, every text ever written by a human? Sure, but so what. When I was programming Eliza-like software in high school, I was impressed by how it seemed to be having a conversation. But all it did was follow instructions I had input. LLMs are merely a much more sophisticated model of this all over again.

I will grant there is a prediction component of consciousness (as in the theory of constructed emotions) but even that depends on input from the outside and internal stimulus and feedback.

I will also grant that there are degrees of consciousness. Is an amoeba conscious? Depends what we mean again. Is a dolphin conscious? I would say very likely. Is a chimpanzee? Definitely. The same as a human? No, they're a chimpanzee. They have a different connection to the world, but that is a matter of degree not kind I would offer.

AI software is not even an amoeba.

Quote from Kalosyni

"Neither "ataraxia" nor "not ataraxia" but "Joy as the goal".

Singling out any one of the examples that Epicurus gives (ataraxia, aponia, khara, euphrosyne) as THE goal is problematic to different degrees.

Saying something like Pleasure is The Goal takes in the full spectrum of pleasure writ large.

Great thought-provoking posts, Matteng and wbernys . I'll address a couple points in a bit.

For me, there has to be something to the fact that aponia and aponos, in regular popular ancient usage, meant things like non-exertion, laziness; without toil or trouble,free from the necessity of labour. The adverb aponōs shows up in Herodotus as "without trouble":

Quote

subdue all Hellas without fighting. [2] As long as the Greeks who were previously in accord remained so, it would be difficult even for the whole world to overcome them by force of arms; “but if you do as we advise,” said the Thebans, “you will without trouble (aponōs) be master of all their battle plans. [3] Send money to the men who have power in their cities, and thereby you will divide Hellas against itself; after that, with your partisans to aid you, you will easily subdue those who are your adversaries.”

I know Epicurus redefined some words to fit his philosophy, but they were all still in the semantic range of the popular usage. So, while I'm not entirely onboard with wbernys 's point about aponia and ataraxia being synonymous, I do think Epicurus specifically uses them to illustrate katastematic pleasure for a reason, same as his choice of khara and euphrosyne as kinetic examples. The reason I'm reluctant to go the synonymous route is that Epicurus has to be pointing out the different kinds or aspects of katastematic pleasure, same for kinetic. It seems to me he's trying to say that there are multiple, numerous kinds of pleasure within the human experience. Broadly speaking, there is pleasure and there is pain. But within those TWO ways - and ONLY TWO ways - of experiencing the world, there are numerous variations.

That said, the nuance of aponia/aponos/aponōs of meaning free from work, exertion, toil, means to me an easy-going, effortless way of being. Surfing on the ocean, untroubled by any turbulent waves. I've seen ataraxia being connected with a calm sea. Maybe aponia could be (and I'm going off on my own here) is effortlessly surfing the waves when they do arise.

Maybe aponia, instead of freedom from pain, would be better thought of as freedom from toil, exertion, work, as in not fighting against one's existence. Effortlessly dealing with choices and rejections, letting the little things flow over you like "water off a duck's back" and "going with the flow." So, maybe serenity isn't a bad choice in the end.

I agree that modern commentators overplay katastematic/kinetic, Epicurus didn't say to pursue one aspect of pleasure only. However, those who would completely discount katastematic/kinetic as irrelevant, I disagree with as well. Just like the categories of desire, katastematic/kinetic has something to teach us about the multiplicity of pleasure.

Quote from Matteng

What is the difference between mental aponia and ataraxia ?

Great question. It may be subtle, but there has to be a distinction. The closest I can come is that it's a matter of perspective. Ataraxia is focusing on the lack of disturbance, aponia is focusing on the ability to effortlessly deal with disturbance when it arises.

I'm still of the opinion that ataraxia has to do specifically with rooting the fundamental causes of fear and anxiety, ie, death, divine punishment, etc. I don't see one who has ataraxia as never ever being afraid of anything, never ever being anxious about some aspect of life. But the root causes of existential dread, fear, anxiety, once those are torn out - root and branch - they don't return and one has an unshakable foundation upon which to build one's life.

Something similar could be going on with aponia. How that works, I'm not exactly sure - Epicurus definitely uses it to refer to physical and mental pain, but I drop this here as a prompt for discussion.

Quote from Patrikios

You may find this article on Claude of interest.

Ditto

Richard Dawkins and The Claude Delusion

The great skeptic gets taken in

open.substack.com

Quote from Matteng

Is/Can Aponia be part of Eudaimonia ?

FWIW Here's an extensive thread on aponia's meaning:

Thread

The Meaning of the Greek Word "Aponia"

"Aponia" is a key term in Epicurean philosophy. What exactly does it mean? There seems to be a consensus that it translates to "absence of pain," but is this a reference to bodily pain, to mental pain, to both, or with other connotations? This thread is for discussion of the meaning of "Aponia," including citations to reference where the term appears in Epicurean texts.

https://lsj.gr/wiki/%E1%BC%80%CF%80%CE%BF%CE%BD%CE%AF%CE%B1



ἡ, (ἄπονος)
A non-exertion, laziness, X.Cyr.2.2.25, Arist.Rh.…

Cassius

December 3, 2023 at 11:05 AM

Quote from Eikadistes

I was personally blown away by this video. I'm sharing this without any commentary on the figure reciting the verse.

However, I also recommend watching it with the auto-generated captioning. It is hilarious!! (More wonders of AI )

I'm intrigued, but anything that starts out...

Possibly a protreptic vade mecum...

Is a bit daunting to say the least.

Yikes

Quote from Eikadistes

Imagine being more impressed by psychics than physics.

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Quote

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😂🤣😂 Egads. The TV commercials tout that their "psychics" have been "vetted." By Zeus, where's The Amazing Randi when you need him?!

Saw this in my morning scrolling and it seemed appropriate for here: