Posts by Don

Quote from Kalosyni

Don Your post got me thinking...perhaps we need to consider that there are "four feelings"...

1. Feelings of mental pleasure

2. Feelings of mental pain

3. Feelings of bodily pleasure

4. Feelings of bodily pain

I see where you're going. I would say more like:

1. Feelings
   1. Pleasure
      1. Mental
      2. Bodily
   2. Pain
      1. Mental
      2. Bodily

The words Epicurus used can sometimes cover all pain, both physical and mental. But there is still only pain and pleasure as ways to experience the world, with innumerable ways within those two.

I will be among the first to advocate for the word "pleasure" to be foremost in a description of Epicurus' philosophy, but I have come around to seeing this "war of words," among those sincerely trying to incorporate Epicurean philosophy into their lives, to be more divisive (on both sides) than it needs to be. Sure, the "bread and water" crowd need to be addressed, but...

From my perspective after reading and commenting and responding to Jack Gedney on Substack, I don't believe his view and mine (I am speaking ONLY for me here!) are really that far apart. To use an analogy I used over there, we're two blind men describing the elephant by focusing on the trunk and tusks respectively. Even Epicurus felt the need to explain what he meant by pleasure: "whenever we say repeatedly that "pleasure is the τέλος," we do not say..." Within "pleasure" there is tranquility, blessedness, painlessness, joy, delight, happiness. They're all related, because "the feelings are two." To give the "camp" that emphasizes the absence or removal of pain their due, Epicurus does teach us to work to remove the pain of fear of gods, death; remove the pain from empty desires. Why? To live a pleasant, happy, blessed life, but that also means a life free from unnecessary pain, fear, and anxiety. That "freedom from pain" doesn't necessarily equate immediately hyperbolically to asceticism or "living in a cave." The absence of pain IS pleasure, and the absence of pleasure IS pain. We can't have one of those without the other. Do I personally prefer focusing on the pleasure? Yes. Is there an insurmountable problem with focusing on the philosophy as giving one a life free from pain? No, I don't think so. But BOTH those positions require explanation. From my perspective, it's not enough to use "pleasure" as a shibboleth to identify the "real" Epicureans. All that said, I do not agree with those who say "Epicureans lived on bread, water, and the occasional cheese." I'll push against that all day long. But I'm tiring of the fortified camps on both sides of this "war of words." Do misconceptions still exist out there? Absolutely. However, in the end, for those sincerely trying to incorporate Epicurean philosophy into their lives, I believe there is much more that unites us than divides us. I would much rather see a dialogue than a war.

By Zeus! This is an accomplishment! Well done, Bryan !

FWIW (from my Menoikeus commentary)

μακάριον

This word is often translated as "blessed, fortunate, wealthy, 'well-off.'" There appears to be no certain etymology of the root [makar] or the longer form [makarios/on]. It appears to possibly have something to do with being wealthy, either literally or figuratively. Taking Ancient Mythology Economically by Morris Silver has a very interesting section on the origins of the word. This is yet another example of the inadequacy of using one word to translate from one language to another.

See also

Taking Ancient Mythology Economically

books.google.com

Quote from Kalosyni

Quote from Cassius

Same question - must one be totally free of mental suffering in order to be happy?

Thanks for asking...

No, but free from unnecessary mental suffering.

Agreed. Once the false beliefs of the gods, death, and similar ones, we can have a firm foundation free from unnecessary mental pain, fear, and anxiety.

I hope I didn't come across too harshly! I'll admit discussions of AI can raise my hackles. The AI summaries sometimes uncover interesting references (like that paper). But those don't necessarily need AI to find, just good searching skills.

Quote from Kalosyni

When investigating the word ταράττεσθαι (tarattesthai), I wanted to get as far away as possible from the word ataraxia. Ataraxia says nothing about what is to be removed or avoided.

Fair enough, but seeing Epicurus' choice of words in context is important, too. The fact that he wanted to use ταράττεσθαι rather than another word I feel is important.

As for ataraxia, a few of the AI references are pointing back to discussions on this forum and the FB group. That becomes circular.

Here's an old post showing occurrences of ataraxia in the texts:

Post

RE: Every Instance of "Ataraxia," "Eudaemonia," and "Tranquilatas" in a Core Epicurean Text

ΑΤΑΡΑΞΙΑ (Ataraxia and related terms: Note that αταραξια is literally "ataraksia" even though the usual English spelling is "ataraxia." Therefore, words that have atarak- are directly related.

From ἀ- (a-, “not”) +‎ ταράσσω (tarássō, “trouble, disturb”) +‎ -ῐ́ᾱ (-íā); Antonyms: τᾰρᾰχή (tarakhḗ)

http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?do…ntry=a)taraci/a

PD17 One who acts aright is utterly steady and serene, whereas one who goes astray is full of trouble and confusion. (Peter Saint-Andre)

ὁ…

Don

February 19, 2023 at 10:28 PM

In thinking about this a little more, my fervent plea is to not rely on AI to answer a question like this. I would be suspect whether it was actually parsing an ancient Greek word or defaulting to modern Greek definitions. In this specific test case, it at least stuck with ancient Greek although in examining the sources references we find:

1. http://www.ldysinger.com/Evagrius/03_Pr…_prayer_all.htm - "Webpage was created for a workshop held at Saint Andrew's Abbey, Valyermo, California in 1997" Item 92 has the word in question: not become agitated but these are all Christian prayers. The main page http://www.ldysinger.com/ shows this is from a Christian seminary workshop.

2. https://sites.temple.edu/dwolf/files/20…-Telos-6.10.pdf - This is more promising as it is actually a paper on Epicurus by a professor of philosophy at Temple University in Philadelphia. The word in question is actually quoted from the letter to Menoikeus. This could be worth reading in full as the author says "I claim that Epicurus does not hold the view that telic pleasure is simply an absence of pain or disturbance." However, if we pass this over in a reliance on AI to simply scrape it for our question, we might miss out on something valuable.

The New Testament question is interesting, but I would suggest caution. I've done this myself, but we also have to remember that word meanings change over time and there are a couple centuries between Epicurus and Paul and the other writers of the New Testament. In thinking about this a little more, it might be more applicable to ask where words in Epicurus show up in the Septuagint, the Greek translation of the Hebrew Bible, since it was composed closer to Epicurus' time. That just occurred to me as I was writing. In any case, the sources "referenced" by the AI are all simply different websites that reference Strong's Concordance entry #5015. That's a fine source, but the AI is pointing to multiple sites with the same information, making it look like it found several different citations when it really only found Strong's.

If you have a question about an ancient Greek word in a text, my suggestion would be to:

- Copy and paste the word into Wiktionary: In this case, the word itself doesn't come up, BUT if you start chopping from the end, you get https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/%CF%84%CE…%83%CF%83%CF%89

- Just type the word into Google and assess the actual search results: https://www.google.com/search?client=…bih=559&dpr=1.5

In this case, Logeion comes up first and also a site with Strong's Concordance.

Adding in site:edu brings up several academic papers with the word, including ones using the Letter to Menoikeus. You can even use a Google search like (try it, copy and paste this into a Google search bar):

ταράττεσθαι site:edu intext:menoeceus -ai

and that puts the word into context within some academic papers.

I simply don't trust a generative AI using an LLM to provide trustworthy answers in and of itself. Okay, tracking down the actual sites it has scavenged from across the Internet may be helpful, but its extruded text based on word probabilities... I'm not going to trust it to "compose" a text-based answer. I'm going to evaluate WHERE it's getting its words that it smooshed together, worked on probabilities for what tokens come after each other, and strung together what it came up with. And, if that's the case, I'm going to search for the sources themselves from the start rather than put my trust in an automaton mediating access to actual sources.

FWIW: From my translation/commentary

131j. ἀλλὰ τὸ μήτε ἀλγεῖν κατὰ σῶμα μήτε ταράττεσθαι κατὰ ψυχήν·

• σῶμα "one's body; one's material life in the physical world"
• ταράττεσθαι < τᾰρᾰ́ττω, Attic form of ταράσσω (tarassō) "trouble, disturb, upset"
  • ταράττεσθαι (Attic form) < ταράττεσθαι (middle/passive infinitive)
  • This word is connected to αταραξία (ataraxia) < ἀ- (a- “not”) +‎ ταράσσω (tarássō “trouble, disturb”) +‎ -ῐ́ᾱ
• "but that which neither pains the body (σῶμα sōma) nor troubles the mind (ψυχήν psykhēn)."

This διαγωγὴν / ἀγωγήν seems right up Epicurus' alley for wordplay.

My favorite example is VS9: 9. Compulsion is a bad thing, but there is no compulsion to live under compulsion. κακὸν ἀνάγκη, ἀλλʼ οὐδεμία ἀνάγκη ζῆν μετὰ ἀνάγκης.

Quote from Bryan

The two words in question are closely related:

ἡ ἀγωγή = “conduct,” “training,” “discipline,” “method/practice,” literally “a leading.”

ἡ διαγωγή = “way of life,” “mode of living,” “manner of spending one’s life” literally “a leading through.”

So this could be anything from "conduct is way of life" to "practice is a mode of living," to "education is recreation." ἡ ἀγωγή can mean "education" but only in context, and the typical word for "education" is ἡ παιδεία.

So, the context of 138 is a discussion of pains and virtues (edited for emphasis):

Epicurus holds the pains of the mind to be the worse ;... he holds mental pleasures to be greater than those of the body. And as proof that pleasure is the end he adduces the fact that living things, so soon as they are born, are well content with pleasure and are at enmity with pain, by the prompting of nature and apart from reason. Left to our own feelings, then, we shun pain ;...[138] And we choose the virtues too on account of pleasure and not for their own sake, .... So too in the twentieth book of his Epilecta says Diogenes, who also calls education ῾ἀγωγἤ recreation ῾ διαγωγ ἤ. Epicurus describes virtue as the sine qua non of pleasure, i.e. the one thing without which pleasure cannot be, everything else, food, for instance, being separable, i.e. not indispensable to pleasure.

It appears to me what is being conveyed is that "training is a way of life." We don't simply train once and done. We don't attend a self-improvement session and that's it. The training to correctly pursue pleasure is a way of life, it's a lifetime project.

Welcome aboard!!

Oh. And if we're talking "printed" in the broadest sense, don't forget the digitized books at Internet Archive:

For example, Bailey:

Epicurus The Extant Remains Bailey Oxford 1926 Optimized For Greek On Left : Cyril Bailey : Free Download, Borrow, and Streaming : Internet Archive

Epicurus - The Extant Remains - Cyril Bailey - Optimized for Greek on Left Side for On-Line Viewing

archive.org

DeWitt (available to borrow with free account)

Epicurus and his philosophy : De Witt, Norman W. (Norman Wentworth), 1876-1958 : Free Download, Borrow, and Streaming : Internet Archive

388 p. 24 cm

archive.org

Phaeacian Dido: Lost Pleasures of an Epicurean Intertext

Commentators since antiquity have seen connections between Virgil&#39;s Dido and the philosophy of the Garden, and several recent studies have drawn attention…

www.academia.edu

6 Heraclitus reveals that the supposed connection is in fact more precise: there was an established tradition of reading Odysseus' professed appreciation of Phaeacian pleasures (Od. 9.5-11) as an Epicurean manifesto. Odysseus delivers his famous declaration, of course, at the Phaeacian banquet soon after his rescue by the princess Nausikaa.

(PS. I realize Homer isn't a philosopher, but this seemed appropriate in light of the direction of this thread)

Quote from Cassius

Any particular printed work or collection in your mind?

There's no real necessity for printed works, although keeping an eye on the secondhand bookshops is always fun.

For classical texts, The Epicurus Reader by Inwood and Gerson is solid.

Online, I am very much a fan of the Perseus library: https://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?do…0%3Achapter%3D1

Attalus' translation of Usener is indispensable: https://www.attalus.org/translate/epicurus.html

For a modern intro, I remain a huge fan of Emily Austin's Living for Pleasure.

Those are some of my go-to sources.

Welcome aboard Buck23 !

"Culper, no culping."

(If you know, you know )

Quote from Todd

Quote from Don

I also didn't get the sense that he "devalues" the Menoeceus, but rather sees the two texts as doing two different things.

This is all I meant. The emphasis was intended to be on "relative".

Mea culpa

Quote from wbernys

Rather i think Torquatus is making the more striking idea that all mental pleasures and pains are based on the five senses specifically in either recollection, present experience, or anticipation of sensations of sight, sound, touch, etc. Which i sought to defend.

Oh, I'm agreeing with your premise! My only amplification is that we need a body to even be able to experience the world through the senses. There are no sensations without the ear, eye, tongue, skin, nose, and mind/soul/psykhē working in concert.

Nicely done.

The only summary statement I'd offer is that all pleasure had/has to be bodily in the broadest sense since we exist as mind and body as a whole and we experience everything within our a physical existence. There is no mental without a physical body. When I die, I with cease to be because there is no mind without a body to work with.

I think that's what you're saying with much more eloquence, and that's my take in a nutshell.

Quote from Don

Quote from Todd

it relatively devalues the Letter to Menoeceus.

If that's the case, as much as I respect Sedley, we're going to have some problems, pardner.

Okay, I need to hunker down and ready this...

Okay, read the paper, and, alright, it's fine. But I didn't see it as overly revelatory. Epicurus posits a dyad to explain physics: bodies and space; he posits a dyad to explain the foundation of ethics: pleasure and pain. That seems to be the crux of the argument. To which my response is: Yes, and...? I can appreciate the elegant parallelism, but I'm not wowed by the observation.

I also didn't get the sense that he "devalues" the Menoeceus, but rather sees the two texts as doing two different things. Cicero is presenting a more complete exposition to the general reader. Epicurus was writing a summary to an Epicurean student, albeit with an eye to general application to a wider Epicurean audience. Sedley is clearly aware of the caution that needs to be taken when reading Cicero, too. But it's the text we have to work with. I still think Cicero is a jerk, but I agree with Sedley (and Cassius and...et al) that Cicero provided an invaluable service to future Epicureans by preserving what he did... And I take pleasure in the fact that this would wrankle him.

Quote from Todd

it relatively devalues the Letter to Menoeceus.

If that's the case, as much as I respect Sedley, we're going to have some problems, pardner.

Okay, I need to hunker down and ready this...