Welcome aboard, jlpendall
Posts by Don
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Matteng You went right where I was going. Here's my translation of the start of 10.133 (emphasis added):
[133] "Seeing that, whom do you consider is better or more powerful than one who holds pious beliefs concerning the gods; one who has absolutely no fears concerning death; one who has rationally determined the τέλος of one's natural state; and the one who grasps that, on the one hand, good things (namely pleasures) are both easily attained and easily secured, and, on the other hand, evil things (or pains) are either short in time or brief in suffering; someone who laughs at Fate which is introduced onto the stage of life by many as the mistress of all things? For that person, even though some things happen by necessity, some by chance, and some by our own power, for although necessity is beyond our control, they see that chance is unstable and there is no other master beyond themselves, so that praise and its opposite are inseparably connected to themselves."
To me. There's almost a "trichotomy of causes" (not a dichtomy of control) for Epicurus:
- things that happen by necessity
- things that happen by chance
- things that happen by our own power
This goes back to there being no divine plan. If something happens to us and we night to mull or obsess about it, we can look at whether we did something to cause it or was it really by chance or necessity. If something pleasurable or painful happened, we can try to do it or not in the future. If, on the other hand, what happened really was a chance accident, it really was just chance.
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Thanks for the kind words, and respect and congratulations to all who made all those milestones possible! ... Which in a sense is everyone who's on the forum. Well played!
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I also want to make the aesthetic choice to have it be a "Men's" group explicitly in the title in the same way the Boy Scouts allows girls if they really want to be there and fit in.
I would find it hard to square that circle. The Garden was famously open to everyone: friends, strangers; men, women; enslaved, free. That was one of the criticisms against it back in the day. Saying you want to explicitly create a "men's" group but would "allow" women "if they really want to be there and fit in" seems to go against the egalitarian nature of the Garden. I would find it hard to think of women who would want to join an explicitly "men's" group with that aim in its title. That said, if you want to create an Epicurean Men's Study Group, by all means, that's up to you and it could have its place. But I find the idea that women would be allowed if they fit in to be a little problematic.
The Boy Scouts example is actually a good example of why not to do this. In an article from 2024: "starting in February of 2025, the entire organization will become Scouting America to reflect its commitment to serving all genders in all programs." So the entire organization is now Scouting America to be more inclusive.
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Welcome aboard, claire46 !
If you haven't read Dr. Emily Austin's book Living for Pleasure, I highly recommend it. We also have interviews with her posted to the forum.
Whenever anyone brings up the modern Stoics, this article from Dr. Austin always comes to mind:
Are the Modern Stoics Really Epicureans?The Modern Stoicism movement has embraced the classical philosophy, often as part of project of disciplining emotion with rationality. Perhaps adherents should…www.hnn.us -
Welcome aboard, Hyakinthos !
Not sure if someone has mentioned yet, but Emily Austin's Living for Pleasure is an excellent, modern introduction to the philosophy. You can also listen to our podcast interviews with her for more insight.
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Io Saturnalia! A little belatedly.
Io Saturnalia right back atcha!
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Merry Christmas to all!
As Epicurus took an active role in the civic and religious festivals and rites of his day, we too can participate in our time's civic and religious festivals with a fresh Epicurean perspective.
May Christmas/Yule/Solstice give us an opportunity to reflect on the presence of light in the world; to bring us joy in the hope that darkness is a passing thing, no matter how long the night; and to give us the encouragement to bring pleasure to and to experience pleasure in our little corner of the world while we can.
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Although not directly related to the topic at hand, I found this excellent summary of Dr. Austin's perspective on Epicurus' philosophy in an article I didn't remember her writing:
How to live like an Epicurean | Psyche GuidesForget shallow hedonism. Follow this philosophy for wondrous, unexpected joys and resilience against inevitable misfortunepsyche.coThis forum and the podcast get great shout-outs, too!
My reason for bringing it up here is that she brings up in several spots the fact that people often miss the joy and pleasure they have readily at hand. Epicurus calls us to recognize the pleasure we already have in daily life and to cultivate pleasure here and now to store up memories for future recall. Any tool that makes us slow down and appreciate the pleasure we have now seems to me to be beneficial.
Granted, Epicureans reject the underlying Buddhist motive of mindfulness meditation, to realize anatta. We are not "no thing." Okay, maybe at the atomic level, there is no sweet, no color, etc. But we don't live at the atomic level. We live at the level of compound things and need a way to negotiate that world. Any practice, even those from the "enemy camp" that can be retrofit and retooled to run better and more practically for the use of slowing down, paying attention to what we're feeling here and now, and teaching us how to appreciate the joys in front of our eyes and how to avoid future pains is worth taking a look at.
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Meditate Οn Τhese Things: Epicurus’s Letter to Menoikeus - A New Translation with Commentary © 2021 by Don Boozer]
LOL it's still weird - but rewarding - to see my work quoted and referred to. I'm glad it continues to be of service.
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Fwiw, here's my translation of that section:
The steady contemplation of these things equips one to know how to decide all choice and rejection for the health of the body and for the tranquility of the mind, that is for our physical and our mental existence, since this is the goal of a blessed life. For the sake of this, we do everything in order to neither be in bodily or mental pain nor to be in fear or dread; and so, when once this has come into being around us, it sets free all of the calamity, distress, and suffering of the mind, seeing that the living being has no need to go in search of something that is lacking for the good of our mental and physical existence. For it is then that we need pleasure, if we were to be in pain from the pleasure not being present; but if we were to not be in pain, we no longer desire or beg for pleasure. And this is why we say pleasure is the foundation and fulfillment of the blessed life.
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For example, let's look at meditation practices (popular ones associated with Eastern doctrines). We have practices like focusing on the breath, sitting quietly, body scanning, etc. These are good methods for relaxation, but beyond relaxation, they don't really offer much.
choosing what you focus on.
I tend to focus on the specific statement in Diogenes Laeetius that the wise man will fell his emotions more deeply than will others.
I would offer that one of the aims is this kind of meditation practice is to pay attention to the feelings of your body. I'll admit the Buddhist practice is to notice those feelings then let them pass; however, becoming more attuned to what your body is telling you rather than ignoring or lying to oneself is in line with an Epicurean life. Training oneself to tune into your body's feelings is the first step in deciding what really causes you pain and pleasure.
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I will try to get this book. Thank you.
It available on Internet Archive
Epicurus And His Philosophy : Epicurus : Free Download, Borrow, and Streaming : Internet ArchiveEpicurus And His Philosophyarchive.org -
It seems Felix would be a good Latin translation of Μακάριος (makarios) "blessed, fortunate'
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De Rerum Natura (which I love so far)
Just curious: Which translation are you reading?
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Welcome aboard!
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about Cicero exploring techniques for improving memory such as the "walk-through-the-house" (?) method
Method of loci - Wikipediaen.wikipedia.orgThe method of loci is a good example of an ancient cultural meme (for lack of a better term) that was available to everyone and all schools of philosophy. It seems many times these techniques or tools get associated with a particular school (many times the Stoics since that's the one that was acceptable or malleable or able to be appropriated by later authorities, ex, Christians), but that doesn't mean it's their proprietary tool or technique.
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I'm coming late to the game here, so I'm just starting from the top...
This exercise doesn't have to be used to pursue "virtue." It can be developed specifically to improve prudence
This seems akin to exercising parrhesia (frank speech) upon oneself. Not that I'll necessarily have the discipline to implement this on a regular basis, but I can see the utility of doing this to increase one's prudent choices and rejections.
I thought this was an Epicurean forum, not a Stoic forum?
I'm inclined to take Seneca's advice (up to a point): "I am wont to cross over even into the enemy’s camp,—not as a deserter, but as a scout."
Self-awareness is useful in pursuing this goal because it allows us to recognize habits that are harmful. When I think of harmful habits, I mean those that cause more pain than pleasure in the long run. Without any regular introspection, we often resolve to do things but are unable to stick to them. While this is useful, it is only one possible trick and is not necessary. Self-awareness is not a goal in itself.
Well said. Self-awareness - whether gaining it from others through frank speech or looking at ourselves objectively (as far as that is possible) - is a tool, just like virtue, on the way to a more pleasurable life.
Rather, I'm aiming to distill the specific exercise itself. In this case, regularly reviewing everyday events in order to learn from them.
Exactly. Using a tool or modifying a tool does not endorse someone else's use of that tool in a different way. Okay, that's a clunky metaphor... but I hope the general thrust of that comes through.
I would suggest doing internal self-reflection only on an as needed basis (and not nightly), when one feels internal distress. One could examine what is going on and think about how to make better choices in the future. Self-harm from over-indulgence (food or alcohol) results in physical discomfort, and the Epicurean takes note of bad results and thinks about what to do differently next time. Also, the Epicurean naturally understands that any time one causes harm to another human being that there will be consequences -- mental uneasiness and disturbance will result and the person harmed will seek restitution or retribution, lawfully or otherwise (or their friends or family will seek restitution or retribution) -- or if minor harmful actions are done then their reputation and trust will be lost.
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Instead of thinking about work at the end of the day, it seems like an Epicurean might be more focused on all the pleasant things that happened - practicing gratitude for ones friends and family and reliving any happy/fun/pleasurable events that happened earlier in the day...anything that one appreciates.
So now thinking... an Epicurean might like to create a nightly habit of practicing gratitude and appreciation, and happy recollections on a nightly basis.
I like the idea of a regular practice of gratitude and recollection. This seems to dovetail nicely with an Epicurean perspective. I do think that recollecting where we may have made imprudent choices leading to pain - to bring back in the self-awareness can be helpful, too. So a balance between what gave us pleasure and how we got there balanced with noting what brought us pain and how we can avoid that would be a part of a worthwhile practice. As Kalosyni said, "compare and contrast".
An interesting and worthwhile discussion. Welcome aboard, Daniel188 !
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This is intriguing, Cassius . I was not aware of Sextus' text. This, to my reading, supports an "idealist" concept of the gods: arising from dream images, expanding the idea of the "happy man" to an enlarged state - physical as well as immeasurably happy.
Quotesince the idea of the happy man is of one who shares in happiness. But according to them happiness (eudaimonia) was a divine (daimonia) and godly nature, and the word 'happy' (eudaimon) was applied to someone who had his deity (daimon) disposed well (eu).
This is one of the primary reasons I like translating eudaimonia as "well-being" being almost a literal translation with at least a reasonable parallel to a modern understanding of the word. Here's the LSJ entry for daimon:
Henry George Liddell, Robert Scott, A Greek-English Lexicon, δαίμων
It doesn't stretch my imagination to consider one's daimon as that part of one's mind we might call our "conscience." I could easily see that being personified, the better angels of our nature (to use a more modern phrase). One's daimon - one's conscience - if pushing one to live a moral, noble life is a eu-daimon. Hence, one lives a eudaimonic - a happy - life. If one's daimon - one's conscience - if more aligned with steering one's life in a negative direction - it's a kako-daimon.
I don't think it has to be circular. It's starting out from a human-centric position and expanding the potential of one's daimon to the extreme: blessedness and imperishability. The gods - the super-daimons - life a life of uninterrupted blessedness and uninterrupted imperishability - no backsliding ever ever. It's aspirational but unachievable for a mortal being. We can live as if we are gods but we will still not BE gods. We can have tastes and glimpses of a divine imperishable blessedness but we live in a mortal physical body that will experience pain.
I remain intrigued, but I feel Sextus doth protest too much.
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This thread may be relevant to refer to here.
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