Posts by Eikadistes

Quote from Titus

Lol, I read "was" instead of "wasn't" . This explains your emphasis on political/societal topics. On the other side, your text is explicitly at the beginning and in the middle part full of Epicurean thought. This might sound too doctrinal or even religiously for a humanist audience. Did they offer you to change some parts of the article?

You're reading me perfectly. They told me to completely bail on the first 80%, and then amp up my hyper-political examples for the latter 20%. When I realized that I ran past their word limit with reckless abandon (and was just going to re-present it elsewhere) I toned down the end a bit.

I know. It’s something you’ve been asking yourself for a long time. I’ve only recently come across this consideration.

Here are a few points the Boys considered in the extant works:

• They are natural beings.
• Their form is human.
• Their image is human.
• They are described as beautiful.
• Their bodies are incorruptible.
• Their body parts are in no way disabled.
• They are described as having children.
• They have stated genders and orientations.

... I was halfway through trying to answer this myself when I came across a conclusive historical anecdote:

Yes, they did. And YES, they DID.

Quote

“Praxiteles is an artist whose date I have mentioned among those of the makers of bronze statues, but in the fame of his work in marble he surpassed even himself. There are works by him at Athens in the Cerameicus; and yet superior to anything not merely by Praxiteles, but in the whole world, is the Venus, which many people have sailed to Cnidus to see. He had made two figures, which he put up for sale together. One of them was draped and for this reason was preferred by the people of Cos, who had an option on the sale, although he offered it at the same price as the other. This they considered to be the only decent and dignified course of action. The statue which they refused was purchased by the people of Cnidus and achieved an immeasurably greater reputation. [21] Later King Nicomedes was anxious to buy it from them, promising so to discharge all the state's vast debts. The Cnidians, however, preferred to suffer anything but this, and rightly so; for with this statue Praxiteles made Cnidus a famous city. The shrine in which it stands is entirely open so as to allow the image of the goddess to be viewed from every side, and it is believed to have been made in this way with the blessing of the goddess herself. The statue is equally admirable from every angle. There is a story that a man once fell in love with it and hiding by night embraced it, and that a stain betrays this lustful act. [22] In Cnidus there are also other marble figures by notable artists, a Father Liber by Bryaxis, a Father Liber and a Minerva by Scopas; but there is no greater proof of the excellence of Praxiteles' Venus than the fact that amidst these works it alone receives mention. To Praxiteles belongs also a Cupid, with which Cicero taunted Verres, the famous Cupid for the sake of which men visited Thespiae, and which now stands in Octavia's Buildings. To him belongs, moreover, another Cupid, which is naked, at Parium, the colony on the Propontis, a work that matches the Venus of Cnidus in its renown, as well as in the outrageous treatment which it suffered. For Alcetas, a man from Rhodes, fell in love with it and left upon it a similar mark of his passion. [23] At Rome the works of Praxiteles are a Flora, a Triptolemus and a Ceres in the Gardens of Servilius, images of Success and Good Fortune on the Capitol, and likewise the Maenads, the so-called Thyiads and Caryatids and the Sileni in the collection of Asinius Pollio, as well as an Apollo and a Neptune. [24] The son of Praxiteles, Cephisodotus, inherited also his skill. His 'Persons Grappling' at Pergamum is highly praised, being notable for the fingers, which seem genuinely to sink into living flesh rather than into dead marble. At Rome his works are the Latona in the temple of the Palatine Apollo, a Venus in the collection of Asinius Pollio, and the Aesculapius and Diana in the temple of Juno within the Porticoes of Octavia. (Pliny the Elder, Naturalis Historia 36.20-24)

I had a good laugh, trying to picture the physical logistics of accomplishing what that man did.

Imagine pearl-clutchers warning society against showing naked statues of goddesses, only for one of the first, and most famous, naked goddess statues to have been the target of ... "vandalism" I guess?

Quote from Titus

the political topics you are talking about seem to be of semantic value and interest for a "Western only" and especially US-American audience

Not even climate change and vaccine distribution?

"...irrevocable changes to the Earth’s biosphere will lead to the displacement of 2 billion human beings and cause the deaths of hundreds of millions more..."

I feel like that one, in particular, is uniquely global.

Quote from Titus

Conversely, in the paragraphs above you dive too much into politics and fear of the failure of certain policies.

No doubt, "This wasn't originally intended for an explicitly Epicurean audience".

The Humanist wasn't interested so now I'm sharing it here.

This wasn't originally intended for an explicitly Epicurean audience; the first two sections will likely be more of a review for anyone here. You may find the third part useful, which contains a comprehensive look at Epicurean attitudes toward death and dying. The last section deals with historical ruses and mythic propaganda (both ancient and modern).

Anyway, find it here.

Quote from Kalosyni

Quote from wbernys

I think it's fair to say he's surely not deontology.

No doubt. Kant is typically represented as the prototype of a deontologist. Kant famously argued that stealing bread is categorically unethical, even if it's to feed a starving child.

So long as we understand we're trying to map ancient thinkers using contemporary terminology, I'm comfortable saying that Epíkouros firmly fits within the category of consequentialism. Most philosophers we view as virtue ethicists and deontologists are anti-Epicurean.

Hedonism is represented as a form of consequentialism, and, according to Epíkouros, "Pleasure is The Goal" and virtues are merely instrumental goods to achieve The Goal of Pleasure.

I'll bet that reading assignments partially inform Barnes & Noble sales.

If you study philosophy, you'll probably be requested to purchase a copy of Thus Spake Zarathustra at some point in your education. Like we discussed in another thread, I never heard the name "Epicurus" mentioned once in my entire, formal education (part of which was Philosophy in college).

I think that applies to whatever Academia considers to be "the classics".

Quote from Don

Saying something like Pleasure is The Goal takes in the full spectrum of pleasure writ large.

No doubt; the Hegemon does not mince words:

HΔONHN EINAI TEΛOΣ

"The goal is hēdonḗn" (10.11).

I go with "pleasure", here, but if there were another noun I'd experiment with as a substitute for "pleasure" (from hēdonḗ), I think I'd entertain the idea of "sweetness", as in, "the sweet life" or "living sweetly". It also compliments the gastronomical approach of the Epicurean school. I might also consider "delight" and "delights", but both of those import their own, cultural nuances.

We can also leave "hedone" untranslated (as we often do with "ataraxia"), but I'm not sure that this approach would be helpful for new students reading in English. I think anything besides "pleasure" (in English) is more likely to cause confusion about "the goal" than to prevent it.

“If these machines are not conscious, what more could it possibly take to convince you that they are?””

Committing a crime in the name of self-preservation. Full stop.

Quote from Matteng

Is/Can Aponia be part of Eudaimonia?

Definitely!

In two places, the supreme pleasure of the gods is referred to as παντελῆ εὐδαιμονίαν (pantelē eúdaimonían) "complete happiness" (Laértios 10.116) and τελείαν εὐδαιμονίαν (teleían eùdaimonían) “perfect happiness” (On Piety 13), so there are equivalencies between "happiness", "pleasure", and "blessedness". "Complete happiness" (as of the gods) does require painlessness (aponía).

In the Epistle to Menoikeús, Epíkouros also writes that "those necessary [desires] are [instrumental] to happiness" (10.127), being the reduction of hunger, thirst, and cold.

Quote from Matteng

In my view Epicurus reached Eudaimonia the happy life but he had extreme pain, so no aponia, or do I miss something ?

I agree. I think his reconstructed sayings, and his Last Will document that he was at least, generally happy when he died. "Even if the wise were tortured on a rack, they would be happy" (Laértios 10.118). It was inevitable, and, like Metródōros, he accepted it as any other natural event.

He was definitely "happy" in the general sense of neither grieving nor complaining, and he "expired undauntedly" (On Death 39.15), but I wouldn't say that he was enjoying "perfect happiness" or "pure pleasure" just because his mind was untroubled. Ataraxia is just half the formula.

I formatted (and greatly expanded) the A-B-Cs of the "Epicurean Verses for When You're..." retort I made to the "Promises of God" section in the appendix of most Bibles, and put it online.

I'm constantly shifting things around and exchanging verses per my moods; there are at least a few, uncommon, catchy one-liners from fragmentary texts that I've enjoyed.

A true masterpiece.

Quote from Don

Just saw this recitation of the beginning of the Iliad on YouTube. Imagining this as an ancient rhapsode performing at a banquet is pretty easy. I found it intriguing.

I was personally blown away by this video. I'm sharing this without any commentary on the figure reciting the verse. Like I said ... totally surprised (refreshingly surprised). Skip to 0:59.

For the record, that's a direct quote from Plátōn's Tímaios.

I didn't quite appreciate it until I read into it a bit, but the arguments for Creationism (or however it's been dressed-up for a new audience) have gone unchanged for millennia.

Meanwhile, the fossil record has expanded every day for decades.

"My eyes were made by God!" said the person wearing glasses.

Imagine being more impressed by psychics than physics.

Welcome! Your work will be very welcome here.

Question for math friends:

1. Given any, one planet in the observable universe, what are the chances that this planet has both (1) exactly one moon, which is also (2) the exact same apparent size as that planet's parent star?

Another question along those lines:

2. Under what conditions could ancient humans have measured the sun without the moon?

I'm ultimately getting to this thought experiment:

3. If you're a humanoid alien on an Andromedan planet with no moon, once a sage from your species apprehends the relationships between local triangles, what observations need to be made (or what technologies need to be invented) to allow the them to make accurate, celestial measurements?

Quote from ReiWolfWoman

We can glean what he valued for himself and his friends [...] but a cost-benefit analysis he would advise a ruler to perform

This is one of the primary differences in the flavors of ancient Epicurean Philosophy versus contemporary Utilitarianism, both being hedonistic, but with different emphases on the happiness of an association of friends versus the collective happiness of the masses. We'll probably find tremendous overlap with both, since the flavor of Epicurean hedonism understands that one's own happiness depends upon the cultivation of friendship and long-term security in society. To my mind, both Hérmarkhos and Diogénes of Oìnóanda (at least) convey the importance of contributing to a stable society. Observing peaceful relations and acting justly are fundamental to Epicurean ethics.