"Remember that you are mortal, and you have a limited time to live, and in devoting yourself to discussion of the nature of time and eternity you have seen things that have been, are now, and are to come."
Thank you for the illuminating footnote: "While “Mýs” is typically translated as “Mouse” (assumed to be a diminutive) it could equally refer to his region of origin, perhaps Mysia. Most slaves in ancient Greece were foreigners who had been captured, sold, or imprisoned."
It seems Mysia was in the area of Lampsacus and Cyzicus (we know Epikouros sent letters to friends in Cyzicus, at least, P.Herc. 1418, col. 7).
According to Strabo (Geography, 13.1.19), Epikouros associated with "the most distinguished of those in this city [Lampsacus]" so maybe he did pick up Mýs around that time and location.
You're welcome!
I hope it's accurate.
I made that connection while making my map of Anatolian regions, combined with some simultaneous research on the conditions of ancient Greek slavery. Once I realized Lampsakos was in Mysia, it jumped out at me (like you recognized), and it just fits really well!
In my opinion ... I have a soft-spot for Humphries' style, though I don't think it's the most educational. It speaks to me personally, and provides me with a poetry that I find entrancing.
M. F. Smith is definitely going to be your best, contemporary resource. He writes in prose, or adapted free verse, and does not impose a rhyme schema on the literature. He is usually my go-to if I want to understand, conceptually, what Lucretius meant by a stanza. He's great with annotations, too.
The one weak spot I note with Smith is that he has a tendency to employ contemporary, technical jargon to refer to Epicurean physics, and, more and more, I think it's a bit anachronistic.
To rememdy that, I recommend Munro. He has a great way of translating the "fundamental seeds of reality" using words besides "atoms" and "particles" that is refreshing, and, in my opinion, more authentic to how a Roman would have experienced the poem 2,075 years ago. Granted, Munro's vocabulary is a tad older, and reads as a bit more dated than Smith's more recent work.
If you like a good, familiar rhyme schema, try A. E. Stallings. I like his flavor.
Thanks and hello to everybody. I'm glad to be here with you all in this garden and I hope that this forum will give some good advice to improve myself.
Sam
Break the cycle of rebirths!
No, just kidding. You'll do well here to share jokes, make friends, and have fun learning.
Evidence is very fragmentary. I came across the figure as well in a few places:
“APOLLODORUS [of Lampsacus] [1] (fourth century BC) Apollodorus was an Epicurean and a brother of Leontius of Lampsacus.” (Curnow, The Philosophers of the Ancient Worlds: An A-Z Guide 31)
“APOLLODORUS [the Epicurean] [2] (third century BC) Apollodorus was an Epicurean, perhaps a pupil of Polystratus.” (Ibid.)
“APOLLODORUS [of Athens] [4] (second century BC) Apollodorus was an Epicurean, heading the school for most of the second half of the second century BC. His long tenure earned him the nickname of ‘Tyrant of the Garden’. He wrote many books, including a life of Epicurus, and was the teacher of Zeno of Sidon.” (Ibid.)
I am not sure why. I have only been able to locate scholarly attestations to the other Apollodoros, but not the original fragment, itself. Please let me know if you come across it!
Good deal! I've shared the Principle Doctrines by Makridis [1] here and the Key Doctrines by A. A. Long and Sedley [2] here. The Fundamental Articles by Wallace are [3]here, and then the Authorized Doctrines by De Witt are [4] here. Of course, I've got my [5] own here, and the compilation here.
I see that I started a thread on this six years ago but it did not get developed. This is a question that we discussed in the podcast recorded on 6/15, so if anyone has any comment on whether Yonge could be correct, let me know and I will record some new commentary before the podcast is released.
It appears that the translators other than Yonge seem to take the position that Epicurus said that the wise man WILL cry out under torture, but it's not 100% clear to me that it's beyond doubt that that's what Epicurus would have said.
It seems to me that there is a strong analogy between being under torture and being under the extreme pain of kidney disease, and we know that Epicurus took the time to say that he was still happy while in that condition. But there's nothing recorded as to Epicurus himself groaning or crying out from pain.
Now Cicero himself says that there are times when you are exerting yourself that you will groan/cry out, much in the way that athletes do, so I can see that one angle on this is that it makes sense to groan or cry out when that accomplishes something. But on the other hand if it accomplishes nothing but giving vent to pain/fear/frustration, then I could see it having negative effects on yourself and your friends around you.
I can see as a general rule that it makes sense to say that a truly happy man does not lose his happiness just because he is experiencing severe pain for a time. But it seems to me much harder to state a general rule of "no" or "yes" as to whether or not to groan cry out.
Should we consider the possibility that Yonge has it right and the others have it wrong?
I'd especially appreciate the help of our usual Greek researchers such as Bryan and Don and Eikadistes on this question.
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Here's how I read it:
"But even if the wise were tortured on a rack, they would be happy,4 and only the wise will have gratitude for friends both present and absent alike through both word and through deed.5However, when tortured on the rack, at some point they both moan and wail."
I take the μέντοι ("however") at the beginning of the second sentence to create a thematic opposition against the first proposition that a wise person maintains happiness while undergoing physical pain. In this case, I think, it conveys something like, though an emotionally healthy person will maintain a good attitude, they're still only human, and they will exhibit normative physical responses to stimuli, such as your knee popping when you knock it, or yelping when getting burned or stabbed.
This might be a sort of marker about the limits of un-disturbedness. Perhaps both mortals and immortals can achieve a state of robust, mental tranquility, but while immortals are removed from experiencing any painful sensations, mortals are still defined by pain that will eventually kill us.
Our friend Marcus with the Society of Friends of Epicurus shared a collection of excerpts that I have compiled into Philodemus' text "On Gods" or "On the Gods" found here.
I have been reading through your letter to Herodotus a little every day. "Shining a new light" may seem trite, but it applies to your brilliant and beautiful work (I looked at that letter very closely last year, but you brought out many different and new ways of looking at it).
Just as a point of discussion: I was initially a bit surprised by your preservation of cases in the transliterations used in your translation -- certainly not something I have ever seen before -- but now I think it serves as a linguistic bridge to draw a potential student closer to the original!
I really appreciate that. I am really glad to hear that you, in particular Bryan have found it to be a faithful reflection, and are appreciating the choices in delivery and presentation. Anything I've really drawn attention to are points that I myself once had doubts, or about which I had some kind of partial curiosity, so I do hope my approach reinforces helpful paths for study (and keeps it fun!)
As 21st-century Epicureans, how do you integrate it into your daily life? Is there any particular structure or set of practices involved?
Perhaps Eikadistes may have something to share in regard to that.
Most definitely! More than just passing curiosities, the teachings of the Garden provide practical guidance so we can confidently respond to the obstacles that characterize daily life:
"We must simultaneously laugh and philosophize and manage a household and administrate the economic affairs and never let go of the language of the true philosophies." (VS 41)
(1) Memorizing and reciting the Doctrines, and parts of the Epitomes are prescribed spiritual practices from the Hegemon. A few random, but specific examples I can think of:
You can't have permanently "bad luck". It's not like there's a supernatural STD...
Forgive yourself for anger, but restrain yourself against rage.
FDR took this one, but, literally: the source of the worst turmoil is "the fears themselves".
"What Would Epicurus Do?" Our acronym "SFOTSE" essentially conveys this idea.
There is no "Perfect State". Your historical fears are comparatively normal. Breathe.
WHEN you get stressed working in an artificial climate, go take a breather outside.
Don't eat alone. (You're not a rogue tiger; no need to cosplay as one).
Try to make friends with everyone you can. If you can't, do your best to avoid them.
Make the most of the time you're given (thanks, Gandalf). You only live once.
I'm just paraphrasing, but the sources of those statements help us focus on the most important things, spiritual/intellectual tools. Along those lines, he specifically calls 1-4 the "most important".
Incidentally, Philódēmos calls Doctrines 1-4 the "most important", and preserves them in his proverbial "Tetrapharmakos", a recipe to prepare a person for the blessed life. It contains a short list of ingredients: recognition that life is a product of nature, acceptance that we only live once, assurance that life is worth living, remembrance that terror is temporary; pleasure is inevitable.
That last one is actually really helpful in dealing with turmoil (that 4th doctrine), that pain is temporary. For me, it's a kind of spiritual mantra akin to "All Things Must Pass". No matter how bad things get, you're one step closer to the pleasurable goal of life. Even facing terminal conditions, as long as we still have awareness, we have power over our ability to choose to try to be chill.
So, I do actually flip around the Tetrapharmakos in my mind, along with a few memorable sayings.
They also really come in handy for discussions. Epíkouros provides us with some really great quips that immediately address a handful of very popular, very intellectually-lazy beliefs that are rearing their heads in the maze of a society consumed with media and technology. The bubbles of some of these ideas can be easily popped by posing things in an Epicurean light. For example:
"You saw a ghost"? Tell me, what exactly does a "bodiless body" look like?
"The world isn't real?" How exactly are you walking on "immaterial material"?
"You don't believe your eyes?" What sense can you have without your senses?
Anyway, memorizing lines, propositions, and key points, like mantras, is a large part of the practice. In this group, I'd include anything related to capturing a higher resolution picture of the philosophy through studying ancient history, economics, or anything that helps advance your personal study.
(2) Then there are the gatherings. Like you mentioned, Eikas is the unifying one, but there are also holidays. As it turns out, celebrating one's birthday was not a common practice in ancient Greece, but was, at least, for a period, seen as a Persian import. Epíkouros prescribed the celebration of his own birthday, and observed celebrations for each of his family members, and his best friends, so the notion of having personal celebrations (which we commonly do as "Birthdays"), is categorically Epicurean. It's sort of a "gimme" in our culture, because of the coherence, but it is also on point.
We recognize major life events with feasts and celebrations, just like any other tradition. Weddings and funerals are universal, and we each co-opt them with our preferred spiritual flavor. There isn't, necessarily, a prescribed "New Human in the Community" ritual for Epicureans, though I'm not opposed to it (I mean something like a secular baptism). We don't have any specific
(3) Any kind of liberatory practice (like offering libations at the beginning of Eikas to the kathegemones) falls in this category. Maybe this comes in the form of setting aside a personal tithe, or donating. We support medical research efforts that will contribute to providing future cures for illnesses that affected our loved ones, and all of this is contextualized in a belief that reality is knowable, science if advanceable, cures are discoverable, and the one life each generation receives can be improved, so long as we all agree to abandon superstition and magical thinking.
Those are fairly ubiquitous practices that aren't specific to Epicureans, but, even if the currents of our culture shifted directions, I would still abide by these behaviors, to some degree.
(4) Ancient Epicureans made art and jewelry in the name of the tradition, and many of us here (check out Bryan's latest post for a perfect example) follow suit. I'm don't usually wear rings and necklaces, but I own a few t-shirts with the Hegemon's head, magnets, and other decor. That's a little more on the peripheral side of the art, and less to do with spiritual practice, but it still comes from a place of reflection and devotion and, I believe, let's us have our own historical expression to demonstrate the sort of experience we are having with the tradition in this period.
I've also got a few Epicurean tattoos. Just another example in the category of spiritual devotion.
everything you do is folded into the master plan of living happily according to Epicurus' worldview
I think Cassius really nails the main point, which is that everything we do, as a result of these deeply-help philosophical positions, is affected, guided, and directed by those beliefs. Otherwise, our lifestyles are all essentially the same. Most of us are paying too much for eggs, and burning more petroleum than we thought we would, and spending our days replacing tires and tying trash bags. It's usually only when it comes to Death, or something heavy, that the rest of the "religious crowd" properly invokes their religious identity. Otherwise, we're trying to find new places to put our plastic, convincing ourselves we're eating right, and consuming entertainment.
Posting an update to coins and rings I have been making, They are still a bit rough, but if anybody wants any, let me know. The necklaces and the coins are the easiest to make, and the Lucretius Trio ring is "on hold" at the moment (but I should be able to make more, somewhat better versions, soon).
Related question: How does a modern-day Epicurean reconcile a) the predominant theory that the universe has a beginning with b) the Epicurean idea that the universe has no beginning and end?
I'm glad you asked!
From my perspective, the Epicurean kósmos (which is defined as having a beginning and an end) is most conceptually-similar with the contemporary "Observable Universe". I contrast that against that idea of the metakosmíos (which contains an infinite number of generative and decaying kósmoi), which, I think, is best exemplified by the hypothetical concept of a "multiverse".
For that reason, I've left kósmos untranslated in my recent project. It's not quite a "world", but it's not quite a "universe", and I think it might be best to keep each idea contextualized in its history. (The same, I think, is true of the modern word "atoms", which refers to divisible amalagamations).
I particularly like the etymology of κακόν because it has been thematically consistent for so many millennia: as a kid, whether it was friends in the Northeast, or South, or Appalachia, in the city, or the country, from any side of the tracks, everyone told their toddlers that gross things are "kaka".
It's silly, but also, it reinforces that this notion is foundational to how we understand the world. It seems almost like a pure preconception: bad is painful is unhealthy.
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