Posts by Eikadistes

My publications can't finance my expenses, but I definitely think of myself as a philosopher.

For context, I believe the "is-ought" problem is expressed in Hume's A Treatise of Human Nature:

Quote

In every system of morality, which I have hitherto met with, I have always remarked, that the author proceeds for some time in the ordinary way of reasoning, and establishes the being of a God, or makes observations concerning human affairs; when of a sudden I am surprised to find, that instead of the usual copulations of propositions, is, and is not, I meet with no proposition that is not connected with an ought, or an ought not. This change is imperceptible; but is, however, of the last consequence. For as this ought, or ought not, expresses some new relation or affirmation, it's necessary that it should be observed and explained; and at the same time that a reason should be given, for what seems altogether inconceivable, how this new relation can be a deduction from others, which are entirely different from it. But as authors do not commonly use this precaution, I shall presume to recommend it to the readers; and am persuaded, that this small attention would subvert all the vulgar systems of morality, and let us see, that the distinction of vice and virtue is not founded merely on the relations of objects, nor is perceived by reason. (3.1.1)

If I've read Hume right (him being a modern sceptic), I believe he is proposing that "ought" is a dubious claim, and that we should focus on the "is". That being said, I don't think that negates an ethics, just an ethics based on Idealism. This is overall coherent with Epicurean Philosophy.

Welcome!

Quote from Cornelius Peripateticus

Puttana

NICE! Duolingo hasn't covered that one, yet.

You're definitely in the right place an an Epicurean enthusiast. Welcome to the forum!

My man!

Quote from Kalosyni

since he was a materialist perhaps he did not do any prayer.

Philódēmos records Epíkouros of having written that "it is fitting for us to pray’". In On Piety, he affirms that their opponents observed the Epicureans to share "propitious offerings and sincere and sonorous prayers" to the gods. So, even then, the opponents of Epíkouros, who accuse him of being impious, still document ancient Epicureans to have engaged in "sonorous prayers".

What kind of prayers? At least, whatever was being recited at the local theatron. Since it is not otherwise specified, I imagine they would have used the available prayers, just as they patronized the available civic festivals and available religious rituals provided in Attica. Perhaps a traditional hymn in Athens would have provided familiarity and calm, like our yearly Christmas tunes:

ORPHIC HYMN 15 (TO ZEUS)

Zeus invaluable, Zeus imperishable, here, you see, we [bear]
testimony: you [are] to be reverred, delivering and pre-eminent.
Oh, King — by your lead it was revealed on this account, divine,
Earth, Goddess, Mother, mountains and resounding cliffs,
both sea and all, as high as heaven, positioned within,
Zeus Timekeeper, sceptered, thundering, wild,
All-Generator, beginning of all, and end of all,
Earthquaker, Increaser, Purifyer, All-Shaker,
Flashing, Thundering, Electrifying, Nourishing Zeus;
Hear me, One-of-Changing-Form, permit, then, immaculate health,
and peace, Goddess, and immaculate magnificence of wealth.

Ζεῦ πολυτίμητε, Ζεῦ ἄφθιτε, τήνδε τοι ἡμεῖς
μαρτυρίαν τιθέμεσθα λυτήριον ἠδὲ πρόσευξιν.
ὦ βασιλεῦ, διὰ σὴν κεφαλὴν ἐφάνη τάδε θείᾱς,
γαῖα θεὰ μήτηρ ὀρέουσᾰ θ’ ὑψηχέες ὄχθοι,
καὶ πόντος καὶ πάνθ’, ὁπόσ’ οὐρανὸς ἐντὸς ἔταξε
Ζεῦ Κρόνιε, σκηπτοῦχε, καταιβάτα, ὀμβριμόθυμε,
παντογένεθλ’, ἀρχὴ πάντων, πάντων τε τελευτή,
σεισίχθων, αὐξητά, καθάρσιε, παντοτινάκτα,
ἀστραπαῖε, βρονταῖε, κεραύνιε, φυτάλιε Ζεῦ ·
κλῦθί μευ, αἰολόμορφε, δίδου δ’ ὑγίειαν ἀμεμφῆ
εἰρήνην τε θεὰν καὶ πλούτου δόξαν ἄμεμπτον.

Zeú polytímēte, Zeú áphthite, tḗnde toi ēmeîs
martyrían tithémestha lytḗrion ḗdè próseuxin.
ṓ basileû, dià sḗn kephalēn ephánē táde theías ,
gaîa theà mḗtēr oréousa th’ hypsēkhées ókhthoi,
kaí póntos kaí pánth’, opós’ oúranòs éntos étaxe
Zeú Krónie, skēptoúkhe, kataibáta, ombrimóthyme,
pantogénethl’, árkhē pántōn, pántōn te teleutḗ,
seisíkhthōn, auzēntá, kathársie, pantotinákta,
ástrapaeîe, brontaèe, keraünie, phytálie Zeú;
klythí meu, aìolómorphe, dídou d’ ygíeian ámemphē
eìrḗnēn te theàn kaì ploútou dóxan ámempton.

I'm sure most of us here both reject the narrative of the nativity, while also enjoying a few Christmas songs that were inspired by the celebrations related to the mythic birth of Christ. I have to imagine that Epicureans were the same in their preference for familiar comforts.

The key point is the rejection of intercessory prayer. Usually, we imply "intercessory" in the modern world when we say "prayer" to mean wish-fulfillment. Rather, as he writes in On Lifecourses, we pray "in order that [...] we may realize our fulfilments and social conformity with the laws" (Philódēmos, On Piety). Indeed, "prayers and obeisances and such honours for the gods are fitting".

Philódēmos also reports Epíkouros of having written in On Lifecourses that "to pray in natural for us", so, in the first place, prayer developed organically, like we developed the forms of gods in ancient dreams, so the act of praying precedes the composition of religious hymns. Then, also, there wasn't a great need for an Epicurean founder to craft a prayer that could be privileged by Epicureans as a proper, Epicurean prayer. Any prayer can be an Epicurean prayer so long as the supplicant is not requesting that the object of their reverence perform magic.

...but, in such the event that we needed one, I gave it a shot a while ago:

AN EPICUREAN HYMN TO HĒDONḖ

PLEASURESS Blessed, PLEASURESS Incorruptible, to this, truly, we
are disposed, testimony, both liberating and therepeutic;
Oh, Queen, because of your divine image, the good life was disclosed,
flavor, fragrance, radiance, warmth, oh, Goddess Fruitful,
and the immortal good of friendship, oh, Mother Bountiful;
PLEASURESS of the GARDENS, prudent, principled, peaceable,
All-Mother, Source-of-all, and End-of-all,
Common-to-All, Motivating, Smile-Loving, Nurse of Love,
Faithful, Fearless, Beloved, Nourishing PLEASURESS;
Hear me, LEADERESS: permit, then, immaculate painlessness,
peace, and, Goddess, also, immaculate impassiveness.

Ἡδονή μακαρία Ἡδονή ἀφθαρτε τήνδε τοι ἡμεῖς
μαρτυρίαν τιθέμεσθα λυτήριον ἠδὲ θερᾰπευτικήν·
ὦ βᾰσῐ́λῐσσᾰ διὰ σὴν εἰκόνᾰ θεία ἐφάνη τὸν ᾰ̓γᾰθόν βῐ́ον
γεῦσῐς εὐωδία καλή θέρμη ὦ θεὰ πολῠ́φορβος
καὶ ᾱ̓θανᾰ́τη ᾰ̓γαθή φῐλῐ́ας ὦ μήτηρ καρποφορος·
Ἡδονή ἐν κήποις φρόνιμη καλή δῐκαία
Παντογένεθλ’ ἀρχὴ πάντων πάντων τε τέλᾱ
Ποθεινοτάτη φιλομμειδής ἐρωτοτρόφος Πάνδημον
πῐστή ἄφοβε φῐ́λῐε φυτάλιε Ἡδονή·
κλῦθί μευ ἡγεμόνη δίδου δ’ ᾰ̓τᾰρᾰξῐ́ᾱν ἄμεμπτον
εἰρήνην τε θεὰν καὶ πλούτου ἀπονῐ́ᾱν ἄμεμπτον.

Hēdonḗ makaría, Hēdonḗ áphtharte, tḗnde toi ēmeîs
martyrían tithémestha lūtḗrion ḗdè therapeutiiḗn.
ṓ Basílissa dià sḗn eikóna theía ephánē tòn agathón bíon,
geûsis euōdía kalḗ thérmē, ṓ theà polýphorbos,
kaì athanátē ágathḗ philías ṓ mḗtēr karpophóros.
Hēdonḗ èn Kēpois, Phrónimē, Kalḗ, Dikaía,
pantogénethl’ árkhē pántōn, pántōn te teleutḗ,
Pándēmon Potheinotátē Philommeidḗs Erōtotróphos,
Pistḗ Áphobe Phílie Phytálie Hēdonḗ;
klythí meu Hēgemónē dídou d’ aponían ámempton
eìrḗnēn te theàn kaì ploútou ataraxían ámempton.

And while it isn't explicitly a hymn, or a prayer, I've always liked Usener fragment 469:

"Thanks [to] the blessed nature that has made the necessities obtainable,
but the unobtainable, unnecessary."

χάρις τῇ μακαρίᾳ φύσει ὅτι τὰ ἀναγκαῖα ἐποίησεν εὐπόριστα,
τὰ δὲ δυσπόριστα οὐκ ἀναγκαῖα.

I reached out to them in Greek (thanks, Google) regarding the CC/subtitles and they explained to me that CC appears after their feed has finished so the program has time to parse the speech.

It should be good, now.

Unfortunately, YouTube does not support CC/subtitles for this presentation.

They're just getting started.

The direct YouTube link is here. It'll begin in 20 hours or so.

Quote from Eikadistes

I tried making a connection with them, hoping for a live stream. No one's gotten back yet. I tried reaching Christos at ideoszen@gmail.com (I'm curious if anyone has a different e-mail for them).

I just heard back! Here's what they have to share:

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Greetings from the Athenian Epicureans.
We are pleased to share the program for the 16th Symposium.
Please note that the event will be held in Greek.
You can watch the live stream at http://www.epicuros.gr/.

In friendship
Pan Pan

I tried making a connection with them, hoping for a live stream. No one's gotten back yet. I tried reaching Christos at ideoszen@gmail.com (I'm curious if anyone has a different e-mail for them).

Happy birthday(s)!

This is an awesome contribution of material. thank you for sharing your work!

Quote from mlinssen

Never take anyone's word for anything, and solely judge for yourself

I've come to the same conclusion with regards to translations. I've found that many of our translation of classical texts come from stuffy British lords in the late 19th-century, whose contributions are excellent, reliable, and educational, yet still inject their own linguistic limitations.

... if I read ONE more translation with "in this wise", BY ZEUS ...

Not that they are wrong, just incomplete, or in need of an update for modern ears, or in need of a review by people (100+ years later) who benefit from a vast repository of educational resources.

In that regard, I really appreciate your angle. (Also, great style. You have a strong literary voice).

Quote from mlinssen

Pros:

1. Rejection of religion
2. Rejection of the proverbial pot of gold
3. Indifference to gods
4. A stress on (autonomous!) movement and action
5. Rejection of everything outside, and sole focus on the inside
6. Rejection of reincarnation (e.g. 27, 89, 112)
7. Rejection of leaders, status

Cons:

A. Not a single mention of pleasure, and only one mention of 'my soul gave pain' in (28)
B. Thomas doesn't bother at all with any cosmogony of any kind, which fits with rejecting anything on the outside. I find the Epictetus idea of only caring for that which is in your control particularly strong in Thomas. Let's be honest, all ideas about any cosmogony are mere opinions.
C. Desire is a twin pair: desire ⲟⲩⲱϣ Noun masculine 99, Desire ⲉⲡⲓⲑⲩⲙⲉⲓ Verb 38, 47. I can't evaluate it in an Epicurean sense.
D. Nowt about friendship. Thomas' Quest is a lonely, utterly solitary one where it is even strongly recommended to avoid everyone (64, 65).
E. Knowledge comes from empiricism by oneself about oneself inside oneself. It's the only knowledge of use, and when devoid of it you are doomed, and dead

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I think this is a fair summation, with perhaps one tweak on point (3)., which corresponds with an earlier observation on prayer: while the forms of the gods are indifferent to the human drama, we are encouraged to practice piety, and engage in prayer (so long as it isn't about wish fulfillment).

I do see similarities, perhaps more so than with logocentric John, or the synoptic gospels.

Out of curiosity, have you found any relationship between the propositions in Thomas and the Apikorsim tradition in Judaism? I've loosely understood Thomas to be a mystical document that emerged from post-Second Temple Messianic Judaism, so in the regard of setting a contrast against other sects, I wonder if they were sympathetic to Apikorsim (less so ideologically, but perhaps more so in an "enemy of my enemy" kind of way).

Tonally, I observe a contrast against Epicurean texts. Thomas relies heavily on (what I think Epíkouros would agree to refer to as) "the mythic drama of tragic poets", in this case, the narratives provided from ancient Hebrew texts, like Genesis and Jacob. Epíkouros suggests that only a wise person can interface with art and metaphor in a helpful manner, so using fables and metaphors as teaching tools for students is seen as obfuscating (compared with parresia, "frank speech").

That doesn't necessarily mean that the content of those metaphors is anti-thetical. I think, maybe, speaking for myself, as an Epicurean, I want to skip metaphors and ask for a frank description, because I feel like I can never truly be sure what someone wielding metaphor really means. At the same time, it isn't pure grey—like you indicate, all translations benefit from review, and I am sure that there are more authentic, versus less authentic translations, each being the consequence of the educational resources available to the translator. Inter-disciplinary study is very helpful.

I'm also curious on your thoughts on the influence the author of Thomas might have had against mystical currents that would later develop into christian "heretics" and Persian mystical sects that are sometimes loosely referred to as "Gnostic" (or, at that, if "Gnostic" is even a useful identifier).

Overall, great job. I'm going to continue reviewing because I am unfamiliar with much of this.

Greetings, friend!

We have some brief discussion of the Gospel of Thomas here, but it's largely as a result of a critical discussion about the book "You Will Not Taste Death: Jesus and Epicureanism".

I would love to learn more about any linguistic connections you have found.

Quote from DaveT

Cassius Yes, as I am not familiar with his school, and I'd be interested in determining the extent of his influence on Epicurus' school, particularly since the Cyreniac school disappeared around the time period Epicurureanism was introduced and began to flourish

Here are some similarities (and differences) between the two:

I am curious, too, if anyone has discovered any new seller! The only place I knew was Shapeways and Thangs Marketplace for 3D Creators. There was previously an order for a pendant with Epíkouros' face, available in plastic, silver, and gold, but they sold out. They do take custom orders.

I'm keeping a list on my server of Epicurean merchants, so I'd like to add if there are more.

I also attempted a translation of Dēmētrio's On Geometry with a diagram (P.Herc. 1061). He spends most of it defending a proof about the relational equalities of an isosceles triangle.

I'm not sure exactly what the context is, philosophically-speaking. Read it HERE.

Happy birthday!

Quote from Bryan

Quote from Eikadistes

Karneískos' fragment to Philístas

Your productivity has made it difficult to keep up lately, but that is a great problem to have. This is wonderfully done! The translation and the presentation are both spectacular.

As you know, we need to do this to all the P.Hercs. The task is large. Thank you for your help!

On a side note, I have enjoyed many items from the Emporium, but I have to say the "Happy Eikas Sweater" is one of my new favorite pieces of clothing. Staying warm is natural and necessary, therefore, we all need one of these sweaters.

Thank you, thank you! I'm glad you like the sweater! I really like the Eikas print, in particular. I actually got laid-off on Halloween, so I've had some extra time to spend and anxiety to diminish.

Along those lines, I also just took a swing of Demētrios of Lakonía's fragmented text On the Size of the Sun. A few passages seem a little obscure and I'm reviewing, but it's interesting. In general, regarding distance, he makes an brief observation about a loose correlation between brightness, clarity, color, and closeness. Elsewhere, he seems (to me) to speculate that the sun may be an extinguishing-and-reigniting mass that ignites from a sort of friction against some, vaporous region above our horizon ... sort of like how we understand in the modern era that the phenomenon of a vapor trail on a comets seems to "burn" based on its proximity to the sun's radiation.

Outside of context, it may be one of several, missing explanations. I haven't learned anything for certain. As is usual, no matter what the topic, the ancient Epicurean authors seem to spend more time talking about acknowledging the reality of death, and the priority of lessening anxiety than spending more time deconstructing anything else. The more I read and translate, the more I read many of these scrolls as practical self-help guides, moreso than scientific compendiums.

Quote from TauPhi

Thank you Eikadistes . To read something completely new so close to the source is a real treat.

I especially like this part: 'and [we will] forever [live] having remembered [them] exactly as during [their] time living, [thoughtful] of the natural end, [...]' but this line also made me pause when I first read it. I know 'forever' here is not to be understood literally and it's just an expression but taking into consideration the context of a dead friend, this 'forever' made me stop and ask: 'wait, what?'. If I may suggest something, I think translating ἀεὶ as 'always' instead of 'forever' might be more fortunate here. 'Always' retains permanence but is free from implying infinite amount of time dedicated to living and remembering.

Anyway, thanks again for sharing this translation. I appreciate it.

Great suggestion! (and solid reasoning) I'm immediately stealing it.

I took a swing at Karneískos' fragment to Philístas and published it here.

The text was translated from P.Herc. 1027.