I remember a Cosmos episode from years ago where Carl Sagan talked about the duodecahedrons as being part of the "Platonic Solids".

Only five are possible. These he evidently saw as representing the elements of "earth, water, fire and air" and a fifth solid conforming to the material of the heavenly realm.

Platonic solid - Wikipedia

>>The Platonic solids are prominent in the philosophy of Plato, their namesake. Plato wrote about them in the dialogue Timaeus c. 360 B.C. in which he associated each of the four classical elements (earth, air, water, and fire) with a regular solid. Earth was associated with the cube, air with the octahedron, water with the icosahedron, and fire with the tetrahedron.

Of the fifth Platonic solid, the dodecahedron, Plato obscurely remarked, "...the god used [it] for arranging the constellations on the whole heaven". Aristotle added a fifth element, aither (aether in Latin, "ether" in English) and postulated that the heavens were made of this element, but he had no interest in matching it with Plato's fifth solid.^[4]<<

If you can tap into the power of the heavens, you have a heck of a lucky charm!

Hi Cyrano and all!

The Big Bang doesn't necessarily have to be the beginning of things. There is a theory, called "Conformal Cyclical Cosmology", promoted by Nobel Prize Winner Roger Penrose, which seems to fit the facts. The theory postulates a universe infinite in time, with no beginning, which expands forever.

I always wondered, when thinking about the Big Bang, what happens when the universe in the far future reaches maximum entropy? BANG?

Hi and welcome Cyrano!

That was some presentation. I admit I knew nothing at all about the historical Cyrano, but he looks like he was quite a guy.

Open atheism was rare in his day and I know of no other examples.

LOL! Tertullian sounds vindictive!

So much for loving your enemies!

An Epicurean style take on happiness I stumbled upon:

What actually makes us happy (axios.com)

Gotta love it:

>>Know what counts as connection. Focus on real-time communication, which isn't a text or posting on someone's social media feed. As primates, we're evolved for live conversations, which can be virtual.<<

>>Happiness doesn't mean dispelling all negative emotions, which are part of what make us human. "I think especially in the tough times we're dealing with, negative emotions are normative. We need to pay attention to them because they're signaling changes that we need to make," Santos says. "Happiness really is about a decent ratio of positive to negative emotions."<<

An Epicurean style take on happiness I stumbled upon:

What actually makes us happy (axios.com)

Gotta love it:

>>Know what counts as connection. Focus on real-time communication, which isn't a text or posting on someone's social media feed. As primates, we're evolved for live conversations, which can be virtual.<<

>>Happiness doesn't mean dispelling all negative emotions, which are part of what make us human. "I think especially in the tough times we're dealing with, negative emotions are normative. We need to pay attention to them because they're signaling changes that we need to make," Santos says. "Happiness really is about a decent ratio of positive to negative emotions."<<

LOL!!! I think he's OK too. Night terrors are pretty common stuff.

Martin,

I wonder if you occasionally experience night terrors? I have in the past and my experience sounds similar to yours, even though, now that I think about it, I haven't for a long time.

What is a Night Terror? - Sleep Doctor

Confused about the difference between night terrors and nightmares? Learn how they differ, as well as more information about these parasomnias.

sleepdoctor.com

I have an older brother who is VERY hard right. I actually call him once a week to stay in touch, and I just plain don't talk politics or religion with him. We've had some EPIC disagreements in the past, but we've never got along better since I've instituted this very Epicurean policy.

He tries to get me now and then, but I don't take the bait.

Quote from Joshua

Yeah, I do hear that greeting in the Midwest. I probably say it myself from time to time, though I'm not sure. We'll have to ask kochiekoch!

"It's a pleasure to meet you"?

Usually something like "nice meeting you". Could be regional.

Quote from Cassius

Presumably most of what Epicurus wrote that would have clarified this is lost. It seems that mainly what we have left is the discussion in Menoeceus, which seems to presume that we know what pleasure is. Taking that position is consistent with Torquatus' statement that there is no need for logical definition or proof that pleasure is desirable. [So he says we need no reasoning or debate to shew why pleasure is matter for desire, pain for aversion. These facts he thinks are simply perceived, just as the fact that fire is hot, snow is white, and honey sweet, no one of which facts are we bound to support by elaborate arguments; it is enough merely to draw attention to the fact; and there is a difference between proof and formal argument on the one hand and a slight hint and direction of the attention on the other; the one process reveals to us mysteries and things under a veil, so to speak; the other enables us to pronounce upon patent and evident facts.]

I'm learning the ends and outs of the board here slowly but surly. Like how to insert quotes.

Sounds like pleasure is a feeling, pre-rational and universally desirable rather than concept with a specific definition.

>>I found it interesting that the Septuagint uses εὐφροσύνην euphrosyne and its verb form, the feeling Epicurus identifies as a kinetic pleasure whereas Jerome decided to use two different terms. Although I know Lucretius uses gaude somewhere and possibly laetitia too.<<

It would seem, the religious scholars didn't have a good understanding of pleasure. Outside of their area of expertise

Yeah. A quick look at Ecclesiastes and Job seem to indicate they fall into the category of wisdom literature. That would have to have a Greek influence as the Mediterranean world at the time was DRENCHED in Greek culture. Even affecting insular cultures like the Jewish world at the time.

As per our Wednesday discussion, eat drink and be merry shows up in a couple of places in the bible. One is in Ecclesiastes:

Bible Gateway passage: Ecclesiastes 8:15 - Living Bible

Then I decided to spend my time having fun because I felt that there was nothing better in all the earth than that a man should eat, drink, and be merry, with…

www.biblegateway.com

>>Ecclesiastes 8:15

Living Bible

¹⁵ Then I decided to spend my time having fun because I felt that there was nothing better in all the earth than that a man should eat, drink, and be merry, with the hope that this happiness would stick with him in all the hard work that God gives to mankind everywhere.<<

And then there's Paul. 1 Corinthians is considered one of his authentic letters, unlike about six others in the New Testament :

Bible Gateway passage: 1 Corinthians 15:32 - Living Bible

And what value was there in fighting wild beasts—those men of Ephesus—if it was only for what I gain in this life down here? If we will never live again after…

www.biblegateway.com

>>1 Corinthians 15:32

Living Bible

³² And what value was there in fighting wild beasts—those men of Ephesus—if it was only for what I gain in this life down here? If we will never live again after we die, then we might as well go and have ourselves a good time: let us eat, drink, and be merry. What’s the difference? For tomorrow we die, and that ends everything!<<

The jist of it in the bible is that it's not a good idea. God will get you for it. Living like those Greeks.

Happy 20th you twentyers !

Thanks for the invite Kalosyni.

It all seems rather straightforward. Epicurus would rather tell the truth, even crouched in mysterious, esoteric, language, the average person wouldn't understand, than to tell the average person what they want to hear, and to reap the benefits of such action.

People love it when a wise man reinforces their prejudices.

Interesting thing about 2 Timothy is that it's disputed if Paul actually wrote it.

Authorship of the Pauline epistles - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

>>The remaining four contested epistles – Ephesians, as well as the three known as the Pastoral epistles (1 and 2 Timothy, and Titus) – have been labeled pseudepigraphical works by most critical scholars.^[3][4][5] Some scholars have proposed that Paul may have used an amanuensis, or secretary, in writing the disputed letters,^[6] although such a solution would not explain the fact that the disputed letters appear to have been written at least a decade after Paul’s death.<<

Couldn't have written it ten years after he died.

I did manage to find those letters between Ninon de l'Enclos and Lord Saint-Evremond I mentioned during Happy Hour and a whole lot more. It's been years since I read their correspondence and I haven't read the rest of it, but from what I remember she was quite a woman.

Also, you might find interesting, Saint-Evremond's letter entitled: "To a modern Leontium".

Ninon de l'Enclos (archive.org)

Here is a good article on her on the Internet Encyclopedia of Philosophy:

Lenclos, Ninon de | Internet Encyclopedia of Philosophy

HI all!

In tune with last nights discussion of Hegesias the 'Death Persuader' and Cyreniacism in general, I brought up the idea that Hegesias might have been dealing with the 'hedonic treadmill. The tendency of a person to become accustomed to stimuli, and no longer experience pleasure from formally pleasurable experiences. This is a well known phenomenon:

Defining the Hedonic Treadmill

Hedonic adaptation or “the hedonic treadmill” are terms that define how people generally return to the same level of happiness despite their circumstances.

www.verywellmind.com

Poor guy must have been so pleasured out that he couldn't experience pleasure anymore, and decided that the only thing left was to end his life. But, he was a philosopher, and so had to preach that to other people. With unfortunately disastrous results. The hedonic treadmill problem might be why Cyreniacism died out as a philosophical school, but Epicureanism survived. At least until the Christian era. Hegesias might represent what Cyreniacism evolved into and represent the school's late stage.

The Epicurean view of pleasure helps to avoid the hedonic treadmill which people might find themselves on, and on which he addresses in PD 10:

Principal Doctrine 10 - Epicurus Wiki

Here is the article I mentioned during Wednesday chat, which seems to agree with Lucretius on humans becoming softer and more social, enabling us to outcompete the less social Neanderthal people. A trait that has so far contributed to our remarkable success as a species.

8 billion people: how different the world would look if Neanderthals had prevailed

Neanderthals were wiped out by chance changes in the environment. The rise of Homo sapiens wasn’t inevitable.

theconversation.com