Posts by TauPhi

Looks to me that an indivisible limit applies only to matter but I never came across anything in Epicureanism touching on the smallest unit of length in void. As Martin pointed out, minima of length in void would lead to interesting problems like resolution of reality and atoms "teleporting" from one place to another.

All these "meaning crisis" people strike me as "gummy bear prophets". They try to find people who never had gummy bears in their lives, convince these poor folks that their lives suck and it's absolutely crucial to eat gummy bears to make their lives better. When the bait is taken, "gummy bear prophets" will conveniently reveal themselves as "gummy bear suppliers" and will stuff their victims with gummy bears until obesity takes its toll.

When ungrateful victims prove themselves to be incompetent enough to find a way to consume more gummy bears from six feet under, "gummy bear prophets" will announce to the world that another crisis is due but luckily for only $21.99 they are willing to share a solution. You'll get 50% discount if you share, like and subscribe and further 25% if you use their promo code: gummybearsrulez within the next two hours.

Quote from Cassius

[...] it is very tricky to identify just exactly what an "injustice" is. [...]

In the book I'm currently reading - Bertrand Russell "A History of Western Philosophy" (1946) - I found an interesting passage about Greek notion of justice and injustice. When Mr. Russell discusses Anaximander, he provides his words that caught my attention:

Quote

'Into that from which things take their rise they pass away once more, as is ordained, for they make reparation and satisfaction to one another for their injustice according to the ordering of time.'

Mr. Russell continues:

Quote

'The idea of justice, both cosmic and human, played a part in Greek religion and philosophy which is not altogether easy for a modern to understand; indeed our word 'justice' hardly expresses what is meant, but it is difficult to find any other word that would be preferable. [...] This conception of justice - of not overstepping eternally fixed bounds - was one of the most profound of Greek beliefs. The gods were subject to justice just as much as men were, but this supreme power was not itself personal, and was not a supreme God.'

[pages 45-46]

In the above passage 'cosmic justice' is discussed, but 'human justice' would probably be understood in antiquity as 'not overstepping fixed bounds'.

A few of the recent conversations got me thinking and as a result a new perspective on ancient Epicurean worldview emerged in my mind. I'm curious how viable you think the perspective is, my dear EpicureanFriends.

Firstly, the required Epicurean foundations:
1) The universe is infinite. (both is geometry and duration)
2) Atoms and void are infinite (atoms in quantity (but not quality!) and duration, the void in geometry and duration)
3) Compounds of atoms are finite in quality (there are limits to what can exists due to quality limits of the atoms), duration (they decompose over time) and quality (they are bound to the worlds they create and freed again from the worlds when disintegrated into individual atoms). Examples of compounds: a flower, a planet, a TauPhi.

Secondly, few conclusions I drew from Epicurean physics that I hope don't violate any Epicurean doctrines:

1) Passing of time is irrelevant to what is infinite but relevant to what is finite (time might not even exist to what is infinite but the safer conclusion will suffice here).
2) Epicurean worlds are bubbles of finite amount of compounds of atoms. Each bubble contains a fraction of realised reality (of what is possible in the universe).
3) There are infinite amount of such bubbles in the universe, they are completely independent of each other (compounds of atoms cannot pass from one world to another) and they all contain some fractions of realised reality.
4) I call these fractions of realised reality: classes of compounds of atoms. (class of flowers, class of planets, class of TauPhis).
5) Classes are infinite in quantity (all that can exist must come to existence infinite numbers of times on infinite Epicurean worlds in the infinite universe). Classes are infinite in duration (they exist always, infinite amount of times). The only limits classes have is the limit of quality (as atoms themselves are limited in quality - what can exist in the universe is limited by possible arrangement of limited types of atoms).

From the above, the crucial is to keep in mind the nature of time, compounds and classes of compounds. Is it possible that the Epicureans came up with something like what follows?

Every class is godlike in nature. Classes are immortal (they exist always) and blessed (they can't experience passage of time due to their infinity in duration and therefore cannot be disturbed in their blessedness). Separation from other bubbles (the collapse into a singular Epicurean world) removes all infinite 'class' proprieties from compounds of atoms and give them singular, distinctive existence as perishable compounds of atoms that can experience time until they reach complete disintegration.

This perspective, more or less, elevates some of the problems I personally have with the Epicurean philosophy:

1) Gods. They no longer have to be something to aspire to (idealistic view) or some super advanced species bending the laws of mortality through technology (realistic view). Gods are neither. They are classes of things that exist infinitely in the universe. The class of TauPhies is godlike. It doesn't make me personally a god at all, however. I am TauPhi that is simply the singular manifestation of what is possible in this world. I don't have a bird's-eye view, nor experience, of the class of TauPhies (or any other class for that matter). All I have is a worm's-eye view, and experience, of the compounds of atoms called TauPhi. All the infinite TauPhies out there are incapable of experiencing the class of TauPhies, the continuity breaks within a singular world and there's no way for any individual TauPhi to become a god whereas the class of TauPhies don't have any choice but to be godlike forever.

2) The principle of isonomia. The balance of things in the universe is preserved. Even if there are no immortal things in any of the infinite worlds that can be experienced directly from worm's-eye view, there's equal amount of immortal classes of things from bird's-eye perspective of the universe.

3) I always liked the 'discontinuity' passage in Lucretius. Especially 'immortal death' and 'mortal life' in book 3 (line 869). I always thought of it as a nice poetic description but now I think 'immortal death' (mors inmortalis) taking 'mortal life' (mortalis vita) can be literal description of Epicurean physics. Please read lines 843-869 in book 3 for the context.

This post is getting way too long. Please mind that the above is not my personal worldview. I just tried to glue the pieces of what was transmitted to our times with my limited reasoning and recreate a possible worldview of ancient Epicureans. Let me know what you think about this attempt.

I'm always happy to exchange knowledge with others so count me in.

Quote from Cassius

At the moment I am thinking mainly of a discussion of research and writing tools that we use in the study of Epicurus, but that's something to discuss.

This can be useful not only for Epicureans but for everyone who uses computers in their research. Great topic for a start.

Quote from Cassius

If you're going to wrestle people out of the jail of supernatural religion you're going to need to replace "god" with something, and "atoms" is only a part of the picture. The rest of the picture as a whole requires "infinity" to be plausible and persuasive to people of normal intelligence - and people of normal intelligence shouldn't be asked to accept "trust the scientists" or "trust the mathematicians" any more than they accept "trust the priests" as an explanation.

I don't think it's fair to make such generalizations about people. I got myself out of the jail of supernatural religion as a teenager and I don't recall I've ever felt a need to replace "god" with anything particular. I seem to live my life, try to understand what's it about but I don't have irresistible need to fill myself with any absolutes. I'm ok with the realisation that I probably will never know what's it all about and I still find joy in trying to know. I don't think I'm noticeably less or more intelligent than a normal person and yet I don't want to be persuaded into anything by anyone. I want to grasp what I call reality the best I can based on my learning and understanding and not on trust or persuasion.

Quote from Cassius

In fact, I would say that the implication of what Epicurus has stated that we should do - MOST OF ALL -- is that we should study the principles of infinity and take them to be correct. We should not consider them to be "mind-blowing' at all, but they should be second nature and taken to be as obvious and easy to understand as anyone for the past 2000 years has taken the incorrect "In the beginning GOD created the heaven and the earth..."

Epicurus was a dogmatist after all, so I guess the above claim is reasonably true.

Personally, as an Epicurean friend (not an Epicurean), I'm not convinced we should take anything to be correct on "believe me, dude" argument. Before we take something to be correct I find it more reasonable to focus on study and suspend definite judgements until we figure out a way to prove or disprove something (Pyrrho pays me to say this every Tuesday).

As of now, infinity of the universe (among other infinities) is neither obvious nor easy to understand (or prove) to humanity.

Quote from Joshua

Have fun chewing on all of that!

I had so much fun chewing on all of that, I chewed it all up twice. Thank you, Joshua . Amazing research.

I'm mentioning it here because I don't want to pollute Joshua 's post on translation of Lucretius as it is shaping to be something special, but for those interested, Joshua mentioned 'The Satires of Juvenal' at the end of his first post. Take a look at satire X (starting at page 260 in Joshua's link). You'll find a lot of Epicurean influences in this satire including, once more, the theme of 'lathe biosas'.

Satire X is not strictly Epicurean as the gods there are painted as the 'standard' ones but I think you'll find a lot of interesting points there, nonetheless.

Direct link to Joshua's post:

Thread

Authorship of the 1743 Prose Translation of Lucretius

Introduction

In a forum thread from 2018, @Cassius raised the question of authorship as to the translator of the prose edition of Lucretius' De Rerum Natura that was printed in London "for Daniel Brown (sometimes Browne), at the sign of the Black Swan without Temple-Bar." Cassius has prepared a copy of the text for the forum, derived from the PDF version at Internet Archive (archive.org).

The translation in question was printed with facing Latin and English text in two volumes, octavo size,…

Joshua

July 14, 2024 at 9:37 AM

'De Bono Vitae Humilioris' is an anonymous poem from Codex Vossianus Q 86 published in 'Anthologia Latina'. Translation comes from John Colin Dunlop's 'Selections from the Latin Anthology: Translated into English Verse' (1838). It is considered to be an Epicurean poem praising 'Lathe Biosas' lifestyle. The date of creation is unknown but it's suspected to be around 1st century AD.

Small are my treasures, my domain is small;
But quietude makes that blameless little, great:
My tranquil mind no tremors agitate—
Heedless if men my days should slothful call.
Go! Seek the camp—ascend some curule throne—
All the vain joys that sway the bosom taste!
Mean though I am, by no distinctions graced,
Still, (while I live,) I call the hours mine own.

Est mihi rus parvum, fenus sine crimine parvum,
sed facit haec nobis utraque magna quies.
pacem animus nulla trepidus formidine servat
nec timet ignavae crimina desidiae.
castra alios operosa vocent sellaeque curules
et quicquid vana gaudia mente movet.
pars ego sim plebis, nullo conspectus honore,
dum vivam, dominus temporis ipse mei.

Relevant links:

Isaac Vossius - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Codices Vossiani Latini — Brill
Latin Anthology - Wikipedia
Laudator Temporis Acti: Dominus Temporis Ipse Mei

Anthologia latina sive poesis latinae supplementum, ediderunt Franciscus Buecheler et Alexander Riese : Buecheler, Franz, 1837-1908 : Free Download, Borrow, and Streaming : Internet Archive

26

archive.org

Quote from Cassius

Tau Phi and several others are firmly in what I will call the - "What the heck was Epicurus doing messing with the definitions of words?!?#!&^????" camp.

When people start to mess with the definitions of words which are generally accepted, they mud the waters, cause communication breakdowns and create incomprehensible mess. Epicurus created a system of philosophy, not an incomprehensible mess so I don't think I am in the aforementioned camp.

I think Epicurus tried to convince people to think about the ideas behind some words from different perspective and prove how this new perspective is more beneficial. This is one of the reasons I don't consider myself an Epicurean. It's not because I don't like unnecessary redefinition of words (which I don't). I don't agree with some Epicurean ideas - like the idea of gods. When Epicurus talked about gods, he tried to explain how the accepted idea of gods is ridiculous (to great success, I may add) but he still thought about them as gods in generally accepted meaning of the word. He wasn't an atheist in disguise. He was a pious man honestly believing Epicurean gods exist. And this IDEA is what I don't agree with.

Quote from Cassius

Maybe somebody can convince me that the above chain reasoning is not a fair summary of Epicurean theology, but to the extent it *is* a fair summary, I am personally 100% convinced of its validity!

I never thought I would say it, due to our differences in this subject matter, but I like your post Cassius . Thank you for not using 'gods' when writing it. Now, if I could convince you to drop 'theology' in favour of something like 'cerebration of nature' just to make sure we don't have anything supernatural in the equation, I'm sure we could go for a beer, or a barrel of it, and talk and think about what is possible in this universe and how to get where we want to get using nothing more magical than our good friends: matter and void. Maybe it wouldn't be strictly Epicurean conversation, but having an Epicurean and an Epicurean friend talking sounds good enough to me.

Quote from Cassius

I know that Tau Phi speaks for a significant group here, but because I have interacted so much with him personally I also feel sure he would not want his post to be interpreted as stifling free discussion of the topic.

I only speak for myself and you're absolutely right Cassius - I'm not trying to stifle the discussion. Quite contrary - I clearly present my point on trying to translate 2.5 thousand old physical theory into modern times but it's only my point of view. Nothing more. I don't reserve the right to be correct and I wholeheartedly encourage others to join the discussion and present their ideas. There are a lot of insightful minds in the forum and I believe some interesting points could be raised here.

Quote from Cassius

I will probably re-title this and perhaps move it to physics, but we need at least one thread to discuss possible physical mechanism by which Epicurus' theory of images is treated as possibly containing at least a grain of truth and possibly much more.

Epicurean (well, technically Democritean) physical mechanism of images is wrong at the core. Two millennia back nobody could possibly come up with the concept of electromagnetic radiation, photons reflecting off of objects and optical mechanism of eyes. The objects constantly emitting eidolas which move through the air and which are directly interacting with us is a theory all right, but saying 'it has a grain of truth and possibly much more' is like saying that when a caveman blew the dust off a rock he discovered how a pneumatic press work. There is a grain there in the form of air pressure but linking it to a pneumatic press several thousand years later is stretching a point a tiny bit.

I would even argue that Epicureans should have figured out by themselves that the theory of images was flawed. If I can come up with below scenarios, I'm sure much brighter minds of the past should have thought about it as well.

If every object constantly emits eidolas, what about objects that are made up with 2 atoms only? Two atoms combined already make an object and according to the theory, that object should start emitting constant flow of eidolas. But if it does, one of two things happen (probably more, but I don't want to think about it for too long):
1) the object disappears instantly
2) the object is instantly replenished by exactly the same 2 atoms (which would require conscious assembly abilities of atoms and atomic theory would be proven wrong)

Another problem is eidolas pushing though the air. If everything emits eidolas in every direction all the time, it's impossible to use air as medium of transportation due to infinite conflicts of direction resulting in some sort of 'eidola tornadoes'.

I guess Ancient Greeks were perfectly capable of raising such concerns and if there are Epicurean solutions to the above concerns, feel free to point them out as I'm not aware of them.

My point is, let's appreciate ingenuity of Greek philosophers who were capable of extraordinary though experiments without access to almost any scientific knowledge, but let's not try to paint them as pneumatic press operation experts.

Thank you Don and Cassius

I stumbled on this today while working on something else. And it reminded me of initial conversation in this thread:

Quote from Bryan

This is a physical sense that stems from contact -- impressions of particles entering your body -- just like all the other senses. We can only form propositions after we have this sense/contact.

In some circumstances you may focus on being physically touched by the images of trees that are around you, at other times you may focus on being physically touched by circumstances in a way that produces a sense of guilt (or lack of guilt) or a sense of justice (or lack of justice), at other times you may focus on being being physically touched by the images of the gods.

Just as we have an innate ability to sense trees with our eyes, we have an innate ability to sense gods with our mind.

It's from Catherine Wilson's 'Epicureanism: A Very Short Introduction':

"According to the account given in Cicero’s dialogue on this topic, the Epicureans believed that the gods were not perceived by the senses but by the intellect, via images arising from the ‘innumerable atoms’ that compose thoughts and dreams. While some commentators appear to believe, on the basis of a problematic preposition in Cicero’s text, that these images flow from the gods, in the manner of the ordinary idola emitted from solid objects, this does not seem to be what Epicurus had in mind. Rather, the texts suggest that our thoughts flow to the gods on account of the images."

I don't want to make this topic even more complicated, but I'm curious about the direction of the images' flow. Can someone confirm if the images flow from the gods or to the gods according to Epicurus?

Quote from Joshua

The pursuit of "meaning" is itself meaningless, in exactly the same way that repenting of "sin" is meaningless. Meaning isn't real, sin isn't real, the thetans of Scientology aren't real. Don't allow yourself to be made distressed by things that aren't real!

Be careful Joshua . If you add to this: '...and try to live your life in a way that's subjectively worth living, nonetheless.' you might accidentally get yourself invited to the next Annual Absurdism Convention as a panelist taking part in a discussion titled: 'What to do with 42 when you ask about life, the universe and everything'. You may also get a free t-shirt, an instant coffee and a stale doughnutoutttut... eh, donut.

Welcome! UnPaid_Landlord

Quote from Little Rocker

I'll be curious at some point to find out what you take Absurdism to be and why it intrigues you because I've been thinking about it some in the Epicurean context.

Ha! You're not the only one. Now there are at least three of us here thinking about Absurdism. I don't know exactly what's the link, but I always found Absurdism interesting. Maybe Epicureanism and Absurdism are like moths and fire or peanut better and jelly or something... probably not.

Anyway, if someone wants 10 mins introduction to Absurdism in humorous yet surprisingly insightful way, follow the link. (warning: Parental Advisory Explicit Content)

Welcome! UnPaid_Landlord

Quote from Little Rocker

I'll be curious at some point to find out what you take Absurdism to be and why it intrigues you because I've been thinking about it some in the Epicurean context.

Ha! You're not the only one. Now there are at least three of us here thinking about Absurdism. I don't know exactly what's the link, but I always found Absurdism interesting. Maybe Epicureanism and Absurdism are like moths and fire or peanut better and jelly or something... probably not.

Anyway, if someone wants 10 mins introduction to Absurdism in humorous yet surprisingly insightful way, follow the link. (warning: Parental Advisory Explicit Content)

Quote from Little Rocker

I suppose the question is whether Epicurus thought ἐπιβολὰς τῆς διανοίας was a different criterion from 'the other criteria' (τῶν κριτηρίων). You could think the Epicureans were taking it as an additional criterion from a straightforward reading of the Letter to Herodotus itself. See DL X 38, and especially 51 (τινὰς ἐπιβολὰς τῆς διανοίας ἢ τῶν λοιπῶν κριτηρίων). But then what would it contribute that the other criteria do not?

Image perceptions of the mind are 'senses at the distance', so to speak. According to Epicureans every object (most likely with the exception of singular atoms and the void - but let's not go there right now) emits images - εἰδωλα. That's why we have two ways of detecting objects:

1) direct contact - eidolas do not make any difference as we have exposure to the objects themselves. In this scenario, the senses are criterion of truth (take precedence) for image perceptions of the mind, which in simpler terms, makes the 4th criterion irrelevant.

2) indirect contact - we get the truth about objects by their eidolas sent to us at the distance (this is the example of a round tower in Epicurean terms). In this scenario, the 4th criterion is crucial and it is considered a full-fledged criterion of truth (equal to the other canonical three criteria) allowing us to know the truth about objects outside of direct sensations.

The answers to your questions Little Rocker are probably something like that:

Quote from Little Rocker

whether Epicurus thought ἐπιβολὰς τῆς διανοίας was a different criterion from 'the other criteria' (τῶν κριτηρίων).

Yes, most likely and probably he reserved the three canonical criteria for 'perfect conditions of getting to the truth' without complications arising from 'suspension of belief' due to eidolas' possible distortions resulting from the distance between the observer and the object.

Quote from Little Rocker

But then what would it contribute that the other criteria do not?

The ability to know truth about our surroundings outside of the direct contact.