Posts by Pacatus

Happy birthday, Onenski!

Quote from Kalosyni

Ultimately if we follow that which brings both short-term and long-term pleasure, we will naturally arive at a "meaningful" life - one in which we do not have to prove that we are good or smart or talented in order to try to get approval from others. So Epicureans have a much different understanding of the word "meaningful".

Don Lest my laughy emoji be misconstrued, I applaud your search. It's among such "strangers" that I would prefer to be.

Some comments on this question of “meaning” herein:

First, for Viktor Frankl, meaning was just what enabled you to perdure – to get through, perhaps to flourish (given the contextual possibilities). His immediate context was his interment in a Nazi concentration camp. His personal “meanings” there were (1) the hope that he would be reunited with his wife (both of them surviving) and (2) that he would have the opportunity to complete and publish his theories of psychotherapy (logotherapy). Nothing more idealist or esoteric to the word “meaning” than that (and his understanding was likely more therapeutically powerful for that reason).

Second, I have seen Camus contraposed to Frankl. But Camus didn’t say that the world is (existentially or metaphysically) absurd: what (for him) is absurd is the attempt to locate some exogenously-given meaning by a universe that discloses only facts and patterns. Deriving any “meaning” from those is up to us. The notion of being “given” meaning by the universe is what is absurd.

Third, when such down-to-earth ideas of “meaning” are seriously considered, the notion that Epicurean philosophy offers no means to (or opportunity for) personal meaning itself seems absurd.

With that said, Kalosyni is right: the term is broad, and needs to be pinned down – else any idealist/esoteric conception might be had.

Quote from Cassius

If being certain is being used to me "I know this as well as an human can know it" then that definition of certainty is practical and usable.

So I think that's what Epicurus was talking about when he was using his canon.

Yes.

Quote from Cassius

So I think I would be concerned about granting to deductive logic or pure mathematics the status of "objective certainty" either.

Ah! Well-caught! One might say they are only "logically certain" -- in terms of the conclusions following necessarily from the premises. But not "objective" in terms of the real, empirical world (a deductive syllogism can be valid while leading to a result that is -- not logically, but empirically -- false). [Wittgenstein, for example, distinguished between what he called "logical space" and empirical space.]

Quote from Cassius

I wonder if there are any!

I probably danced around skepticism for awhile – though closer to Pyrrhonian skepticism than Academic skepticism. Never hard determinism.

I left long ago what I would call a “hard dogmatism” (in the more modern, pejorative sense) that demands a strict attitude of certainty, as opposed to a pragmatic confidence.* (DeWitt seems to veer there.) [I came to the conclusion that Sextus Empiricus simply confused Epicurus’ use of dogma with that of the Stoics and the Academics.]

As you put it in Ante Oculos: “Epicurus also saw that man’s natural fear of the unknown is seized upon as a tool by false priests, professors, and politicians who demand obedience through the call for ‘certainty.’ The call for ‘certainty’ in human action is a false standard which can never be met, and the real evil of those who call for it is that they are aware of the trap which they lay for the unthinking. The only remedy for this abomination is for men to acknowledge that their knowledge and their lives are limited to the scope to the bounds established by Nature.”

– Cassius Amicus, Ante Oculos: Epicurus and the Evidence-Based Life

We draw on senses (observations), feelings and intuition (my shorthand translation of prolepsis**) – and reasonable inference – to achieve a level of confidence that allows us to form opinions and act. Confidence is necessary, but absolute objective certainty is only available in deductive logic and pure mathematics. (Of course, sometimes we might say “I’m certain that …” as a subjective expression of high confidence; not generally a problem.)

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* Don and I discussed the changing usage of “dogma” here: RE: Philodemus of Gadara - Main Biography

** As per these definitions from Merriam-Webster:

1a: the power or faculty of attaining to direct knowledge or cognition without evident rational thought and inference

b: immediate apprehension or cognition

2: quick and ready insight

Quote from Salisuhassan

Garum is fascinating—it's an ancient Roman condiment made from fermented fish!

I tried making garum -- it turned out awful. (Likely my fault; I can't remember what ingredients I used.) Now I just use Thai fish sauce.

Welcome Cyrano.

Peter Saint-Andre’s translation: “They must free themselves from the prison of public affairs and ordinary concerns.”

The Greek text from his site: ἐκλυτέον ἑαυτοὺς ἐκ τοῦ περὶ τὰ ἐγκύκλια καὶ πολιτικὰ δεσμωτηρίου.

Vatican Sayings, by Epicurus

Thank you for the meeting and guiding the discussion.

One of my New Year’s resolutions is not to argue, even in the kind of cordial argument that takes place here – and even recognizing the virtues of that for learning. [And I do not mean argument here in any pejorative sense: merely “to contend or disagree with words” (Merriam-Webster) – which need not be “disagreeable”.] It is just a personal intention, trying to influence my own ataraxia.

BrainToBeing I was just re-reading this older post by Elayne (who is an MD, PhD) and thought you might find it interesting. Just a thought ...

On Pain, Pleasure, and Happiness - Epicureanfriends.com

Not "absence of pain" as a full statement of the goal of life, but “the Feelings are two, pleasure and pain” and “Pleasure is the beginning and the end of a…

www.epicureanfriends.com

BTW: Happy New Year!

Re the poll: I use a laptop, never a notebook and seldom a cellphone (just for a quick look, never to participate).

Cassius

I just posted a new poem in the Epicurean poetry thread, and it all came out right. I suspect the glitch was just part of the transition to the new format.

Quote from BrainToBeing

Anyway, some other thoughts to put in the mix.

Thanks, John. Yes,

That issue of "ought"
has always been fraught.

All in all, I like the new look!

Cassius Single spaced lines all became double spaced. I copy-paste the poems here from Word, putting them in Arial font because others used to cause some issues, as I recall. I've kind of learned what works for copy-pasting -- if I have to adjust in the future, I'll figure it out. Not a big deal really.

Welcome, Tariq.

All of my poems (and those of others as well it seems) lost their formatting. I went through and fixed mine. We'll see what happens when new ones come up.

To my (likely limited) knowledge, strict libertarian free will entails that our agency (decisions/actions) are so unconstrained that, in any exact same situation, one could have always chosen differently. This implies that both exogenous circumstance and endogenous circumstances (e.g., my state of mind, education, ability to observe and analyze) are the same, and yet I could have chosen differently in any and every case. Now, if all those circumstances are strictly determinative, then the only way I could have chosen differently is if my choices are random. That is why I reject strict libertarian free will (again, as I understand it). I don’t see Epicurus as a strict free-will libertarian.

That does not mean the only alternative is strict determination. Some constraints (both exogenous and endogenous) may be determinative, others not. In some cases, in some ways, I might have been able to choose otherwise. In some cases, not. Some constraints might be sufficiently determinative as to present mitigating circumstances (ethically); others not so much.

So, I take a kind of middle ground about questions of what could be and what might have been possible.

Just thinking “out loud” here –

Assuming for the sake of discussion that we all have the same understanding of what “good” means, it seems the sort of “meta-ethical” questions are: (1) Why does one want to be good? And (2) – more to the ethical point – why ought one (anyone) want to be good? All ethics is about how one gets from an “is” to an “ought.”

From an instrumental point of view, an agent’s “good” behavior would aim at some goal: In order to achieve G, one ought (that is, one’s best course of action is) to do A. For the Hellenistic schools (e.g. the Stoics and Epicureans), following Aristotle, there is an ultimate goal (a telos, and end-value in itself) – which is eudaimonia (happy or satisfied well-being) – which all interim goals support, and toward which appropriate actions (virtues) are aimed. They disagreed on what is necessary for that telos. But both the Stoics and the Epicureans agree that some measure of social justice is entailed (I don’t think the Pyrrhonian skeptics go there).

The only non-instrumental view I am aware of is deontology: that is, moral rules are exogenously given – either in terms of some divine command theory, or some ideal categorical imperative (e.g., Kant – although that seems to be ultimately based on its own instrumentality: a universal desire to do one’s duty; but that may also be metaphysically given). But maybe there is some evolutionarily determined “given” (or givens) that dictates at least some oughts?

An Epicurean might say that any satisfaction about being/doing good (say, because one has followed Stoic virtues or obeyed some exogenous moral commands) just is (a) pleasure. And what are the grounds for suggesting that one would (or ought to) feel dissatisfied for doing so – in determining if one has acted ethically/morally? I would suggest that, from an Epicurean view, it is our evolutionary human nature that provides the guidance (in terms of pleasure/pain – both physical and mental – assessed by our sense, feelings and intuition;* and abetted by reason).

Again: All ethics is about getting from an “is” to an “ought.” And the Epicurean view (to my mind) readily includes a host of social justice considerations (consideration of “the other”) in the mix.

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OK: My brain is now a scrambled omelet.

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* I am using “intuition” here – as a translation of prolepsis – in the sense of “a: the power or faculty of attaining to direct knowledge or cognition without evident rational thought and inference; or b: immediate apprehension or cognition” (Merriam-Webster)