Posts by Kalosyni

I am enjoying reading everyone's comments, such good and helpful insights!

Godfrey ...this comes up for me after reading what you wrote...That the "fear" and the need to defend ideology/religion arises due to how the mind forms concepts.

The Tao te Ching (Stephen Mitchell translation) says:

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"When people see some things as beautiful, other things become ugly.

When people see some things as good, other things become bad.

Being and non-being create each other.

Difficult and easy support each other.

Long and short define each other.

High and low depend on each other.

Before and after follow each other."

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I am currently contemplating how Taoism compares with Epicureanism. It seems that some of it fits, but yet other aspects are too much like Pyrrhonism/Skepticism.

There is the enjoyment of procuring/creating all the sensory delights of the season, and for the enjoyable feelings of anticipation as the holiday celebrations near -- this for me was especially so back when I was married. My ex and I would go to his family of origin (his mom, siblings, nieces and nephews). It was always a very festive Christmas overflowing with abundance. And I have the fun memory of everyone sipping wine, laughing and playing "Apples to Apples" game.

It does seem that every holiday season causes me take stock regarding the kinds of friendships and emotional connections I have in my life. This year I find that I need to focus my mind more on the pleasures of making my living space cosy, rather than on emotional connections (it's complicated for me right now, because I am in an uncommitted "situationship").

This year I am going to fullful my wish of making a gingerbread house, all from scratch, so it will be good and tasty enough to eat on Christmas day.

I think I see some of what you are saying Cassius. It might be that some of what I write might be "crazymaking" in that I am probably going around-and-around in circles, while both forgetting the actual philosophy and making slightly off-kilter arguments. (How do I learn to stop doing that?...I need to study the basics more and take better notes, and learn how to present my ideas in a cleaner, clearer fashion).

But I think I do enjoy the "learning by hashing things out" method. I hope it isn't too annoying for people. (Am I just entertaining myself but boring others?)

So...Another way to look at this is that "the telos" is also the goal. For example, Christians have as their goal to see Jesus in heaven after they die, and that goal would both include salvation and go beyond it. But they don't have that as their only goal.

Now for Epicureans the goal is to live life the most pleasureably, because this life is the only life. And to live pleasureably both includes and goes beyond tranquility.

A question that comes up for me lately is, at what point does an Epicurean say: "I've studied the teachings and I've learned the teachings, now I will simply just live the teachings." Yet, one would not feel fully contented until one as established the fundamental material attributes underlying the Epicurean lifestyle.

I am still contemplating the role of tranquility within Epicureanism.

Tranquility as defined as peace of mind, which would be a mental attitude. So it is that one feels untroubled and free from disturbances.

Martin said in an earlier thread:

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Epicurus' philosophy is better characterized by the statement that peace of mind is required to experience maximum pleasure but is not equal to pleasure.

(And according to Striker's article tranquility is a sort of pleasure).

So now there is:

1) Tranquility is not the highest pleasure

2) Tranquility is a sort of pleasure

3) Tranquility is required to experience maximum pleasure

A certain amount of tranquility is required for a happy life. The tranquil person will be able to sleep soundly at night and wake up refreshed and ready to enjoy life. But those who struggle with bouts of insomnia may need to invest some time to process anxieties, etc. I myself occassionally have been dealing with insomnia. I don't think a therapist is required, but some processing of anxiety, fear, and unfulfilled desires, is necessary. I can see that there are some PD's that might apply.

Has there been any analysis on Diogenes Laertius section on Ethics? I found a translation that is different than one you have here on the forum.

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Epicurean ethics

But as to the conduct of life, what we ought to avoid and what to choose, he writes as follows. Before quoting his words, however, let me go into the views of Epicurus himself and his school concerning the wise man.

There are three motives to injurious acts among men—hatred, envy, and contempt; and these the wise man overcomes by reason. Moreover, he who has once become wise never more assumes the opposite habit, not even in semblance, if he can help it. He will be more susceptible of emotion than other men: that will be no hindrance to his wisdom. However, not every bodily constitution nor every nationality would permit a man to become wise.

Even on the rack the wise man is happy. He alone will feel gratitude towards friends, present and absent alike, and show it by word and deed. When on the rack, however, he will give vent to cries and groans. As regards women he will submit to the restrictions imposed by the law, as Diogenes says in his epitome of Epicurus' ethical doctrines. Nor will he punish his servants; rather he will pity them and make allowance on occasion for those who are of good character

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Epicureans do not suffer the wise man to fall in love; nor will he trouble himself about funeral rites; according to them love does not come by divine inspiration: so Diogenes in his twelfth book. The wise man will not make fine speeches. No one was ever the better for sexual indulgence, and it is well if he be not the worse.

Nor, again, will the wise man marry and rear a family—so Epicurus says in the Problems and in the On Nature. Occasionally he may marry owing to special circumstances in his life. Some too will turn aside from their purpose. Nor will he drivel, when drunken: so Epicurus says in the Symposium. Nor will he take part in politics, as is stated in the first book On Life; nor will he make himself a tyrant; nor will he turn Cynic (so the second book On Life tells us); nor will he be a mendicant.

But even when he has lost his sight, he will not withdraw himself from life: this is stated in the same book. The wise man will also feel grief, according to Diogenes in the fifth book of his Epilecta. And be will take a suit into court. He will leave written words behind him, but will not compose panegyric. He will have regard to his property and to the future.

He will be fond of the country. He will be armed against fortune and will never give up a friend. He will pay just so much regard to his reputation as not to be looked down upon. He will take more delight than other men in public festivals.

The wise man will set up votive images. Whether he is well off or not will be matter of indifference to him. Only the wise man will be able to converse correctly about music and poetry, without however actually writing poems himself. One wise man does not move more wisely than another. And he will make money, but only by his wisdom, if he should be in poverty, and he will pay court to a king, if need be. He will be grateful to anyone when he is corrected.

He will found a school, but not in such a manner as to draw the crowd after him; and will give readings in public, but only by request. He will be a dogmatist but not a mere skeptic; and he will be like himself even when asleep. And he will on occasion die for a friend.

The school holds that sins are not all equal; that health is in some cases a good, in others a thing indifferent; that courage is not a natural gift but comes from calculation of expediency; and that friendship is prompted by our needs. One of the friends, however, must make the first advances (just as we have to cast seed into the earth), but it is maintained by a partnership in the enjoyment of life's pleasures.

Two sorts of happiness can be conceived, the one the highest possible, such as the gods enjoy, which cannot be augmented, the other admitting addition and subtraction of pleasures.

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Diogenes Laertius - Lives of Eminent Philosophers

Thank you Cassius for highlighting certain sections of the article and sharing your views and insights.

Good stuff on Epicureanism.... After reading the parts on Pyrrhonism, it appears to me that Zen Buddhism has some similar views to Pyrrhonism. There were two suicides at the Zen Temple I used to attend. Both were men in their 20's. Such a shame. So much for tranquility. If only they had had the ability to access more pleasure in life.

Pleasure, I firmly believe, is the antidote to the "darkness" and "heaviness" of life. But one must know and practice the best way to dance with one's pleasures.

I will not do a tranquility table of comparison after-all. But there is this difference between Epicurus and the Stoics:

Epicurus -- the happy person will be unperturbed.

Stoics -- the sage will be unperturbable: nothing that happens can possibly bring him any trouble.

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"I will argue that tranquility was in fact not a serious contender for the position of ultimate good in ancient times"

Epicurus: "As he was known, he was a hedonist, who believed that the good, for humans at least, is pleasure, and therefore the best life must be the most pleasant."

From Gisela Striker article:

https://www.jstor.org/stable/27903171

Quote from Cassius

n "Santa Fe Trail" Massey is clearly portraying a religious zealot

He speaks about "conquering"...this seems antithetical to Epicurus' teachings. I wonder if there also a noticable shift in Epicureanism, from Epicurus' time to Cicero's time? And this difference also leads to differing interpretations of Epicureanism.

I want to make a simple table comparing tranquility in Epicureanism vs. Stoicism, to make it easier to see and remember the differences. Will share when completed.

Tranquility is itself a pleasure. It is not a character trait as the Stoics would hold, but rather a state of being free from troubles and anxiety. It is the state of being free from unfulfilled desires and fear of pain or memories of pain. One can feel untroubled by unfulfilled desires by realizing that the things that are most needed are simple to fulfill. Fears are dispelled by realizing that most fears are unfounded. Pains that cannot be overcome will not last long when severe, and when mild one can yet enjoy pleasures. These ideas are reframed in my own words from the jstor article.

This is an interesting write-up on tranquility and how it was differently understood within each of the major Classical schools of philosophy, including Epicureanism. (Author: Gisela Striker)

https://www.jstor.org/stable/27903171

I hope you will forgive me, but I do have a preference for the printed word. I process things much more easily visually rather than auditorialy.

If you could please post a link to the text document I would greatly appreciate it

Quote from Cassius

he might point out that Venus was the goddess of pleasure, of love, and of many things similar to that

Okay, thank you, I will need to look into this more

My newest blog entry, a "common sense" approach, that should align with the views of most on this forum:

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In this blog I want to step outside the bounds of classical Epicurean scholarship and explore pleasure and tranquility using a simple “common sense” approach. Pleasure and tranquility need not be mutually exclusive. Not all stress should be avoided and modern Epicureans should move away from seeing tranquility as a main goal.

Epicureans want to live enjoyably and happily, yet modern life is far from tranquil and can create a lot of stress. As modern Epicureans we can see that some people greatly enjoy excitement, activity, and stimulation, and other people enjoy quietude, relaxation, and tranquility. Introverts are estimated to be 25% of the population, and tend to desire more tranquility than extroverts. So keeping in mind that there can be differences in temperament, it makes sense that what is considered pleasurable will also depend on temperament. It would be wrong to impose any one group’s preferences onto another group.

For the sensitive constitution of introverts, the right level of tranquility can be deeply pleasing. Believing that tranquility leads to an enjoyable and happy life, they will limit certain activities and there will be many activities they would never do. However, if they don’t live independently in a remote or rural location, they will need to decide how much stress they want to take on, and make choices. This will often be by trial and error.

With our common modes of transportation, our speed of life is much faster than in the time of antiquity. The structure of 21st century civilization is stressful, complex, and specialized. At the time of Epicurus, life would have very easily and naturally fallen into a simple and tranquil structure, but now it would take much more effort to recreate the tranquility of Ancient Greece. What was tranquil then, to us now appears as an ascetic lifestyle. Our modern brains are now wired for a certain level of stimulation, and the happiest life will need to find the most agreeable level of mental and sensory stimulation. Too much tranquility can become unhealthy and for some can lead to feelings of emptiness, lethargy, and even lead to depression. So for these reasons it becomes questionable as to whether setting tranquility in life as a main goal will result in the most happy life. In addition, human beings are social animals and need to interact regularly with others to experience feelings of belonging and security. All social interaction contains within it a certain level of stress, but the goal of attaining pleasureable social interactions will help guide the modern Epicurean.

While the introverts might focus on modulating the level of stress in their lives, the other more extroverted folks will be busy taking on more challenges and living a much more active lifestyle. They will seek out adventure and novel sensory experiences. They will enjoy a lively environment that tickles the heart and mind with pleasure and joyful social interactions.

Regardless of introvert or extrovert tendencies, some stresses in life actually do lead to a kind of mental pleasure that cannot be produced by any other way. One example is participating in a gathering of people. With the right kind of people and in the right setting, the kind of joy that can well up within the heart cannot be found in solitude. And yet again this may best be enjoyed by those who have learned how to navigate a social environment. It is possible to learn and practice socializing in order to move from introvert to ambivert, and I would greatly encourage any introverted Epicureans to put effort into this, as the rewards are great.

Extroverted Epicureans already know and enjoy the pleasure of socializing, and they can help the introverts ease into the social fabric of a community, through thoughtful questions that pull introverts into conversation. Introverted Epicureans can also be of service to the community by bring the gifts they have learned through mastery of their sensitivities. They can help modulate the energy level if it gets too fast or loud, by requesting a resting break during community discussion. When attending a party and the dancing has ended, they can bring in more flowing soothing music conducive to good conversations.

The best kinds of gatherings would be between Epicureans who put forth the enjoyable meeting of the mind and the heart, as the agreed upon social goal. They would have no need for the social behaviors that cause stress, because they would set aside competition for attention, passive aggressiveness, pessimism, irritability, impatience, and harsh judgements. They would focus on sharing the joys of insight into the Epicurean philosophy and embody any kind of behavior that leads to pleasurable and agreeable friendship and conversation: smiles, encouragements, positivity, patience, clear and direct speaking, warm greetings and farewells of kisses and hugs. This kind of gathering would be stimulating for the mind and the senses, and yet enjoyable, and it very well could be considered both tranquil and stimulating at the same time.

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I happened upon this, but haven't read very much yet. Has anyone else already seen this?

"Among Friends: Cicero and the Epicureans" Thesis by Nathan Gilbert

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"Cicero’s social relationships with a wide range of Greek and Roman Epicureans and his epistolary debates with them reveal how his overt and consistent hostility toward the Garden reflects far more than the standard practice of refuting a rival school (i.e. like certain anti-Epicurean discourses of Epictetus or polemical works of Plutarch). Cicero’s hostility, stretching from the preface of Book I of De Republica to the final paragraphs of De Officiis (3.116-20), amounts to nothing less than a consistent campaign to undermine and demolish the influence and popularity of Epicureanism in Italy and seeks simultaneously to establish his place in the history of Roman literature over his philosophical rivals, a group of early Latin authors of Epicurean treatises (including Lucretius)." ...

...."Finally, I also hope that my analysis of Cicero's anti-Epicurean polemics will offer clarification as to how he can be used responsibly in reconstructions of the school's doctrines."

Among Friends: Cicero and the Epicureans (thesis)

Among Friends: Cicero and the Epicureans (thesis)

www.academia.edu

Thanks! And I hope to start an in person philosophy group next year in January. So I have a bit time till then to do more blogging and set up some very basic introductory Epicurean philosophy pages.

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A Call to Joyous Epicurean Living

Rejoice in the joys of the spirit. Rise up and dance! For the spirit keeps safe the seat of wisdom. Partake in the joys of the body often and with prudence. For the spirit animates the body and it knows the wisest way to enjoy living.

As the ancient song of Seiklos says: "While you live, shine! Have no grief at all. Life exists only for a short while, and time demands its due."

The spirit does not live forever, as some may believe. For it only comes to animate the flesh just as heat comes from a burning fire. And when the heat of the body dissipates, so too does the spirit.

And just as a kernel of wheat ripens, so too the spirit ripens with experience of wisdom. Even in the midst of a feast of pleasure, you must always hold pain in its proper place, or you will lose the benefit of its guidance. For pain always guides one who makes foolish mistakes. By pain we learn what to avoid, and by pain we learn wisdom. A life of joy takes no pride in pain or the endurance of painful over-indulgences. Instead, a life of joy rejoices in the merits of wisdom, the fullness of delight, and the intimacy of uplifting friendship.

https://epicureanphilosophyblog.blogspot.com/2021/11/joyful-right-living.html

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Quote from Cassius

our lives are of most important value to us, so that we should focus our effort on using our time the "best" way possible. And we have to have a philosophical judgment as to what is the "best way possible."

What I find valuable about this forum (Cassius@ under your direct guidance) is that you advocate that each individual should be allowed to make their own choices as to what the "best way possible" is. Of course, we assume that we have developed the wisdom to make choices that are ethical, and so we don't choose to do things that cause any pain or suffering to others.

As to personal choices, I myself won't ever choose bungie jumping or sky diving, and yet there could considered a place in "hedonism" for those who have high testosterone levels and seek to enjoy themselves in potentially risky or intense sensory experiences. I think these kinds of choices would be considered a "modern" interpretation of Epicureanism. Epicurus himself led a quiet life and I can't see him wanting to do any risky behaviors. There is much more sweet pleasure to be had in the "Garden".

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"To-morrow, dearest Piso, your friend, beloved by the Muses, who keeps our annual feast of the twentieth * invites you to come after the ninth hour to his simple cottage. If you miss udders and draughts of Chian wine, you will see at least sincere friends and you will hear things far sweeter than the land of the Phaeacians. But if you ever cast your eyes on me, Piso, we shall celebrate the twentieth richly instead of simply."

http://www.attalus.org/poetry/philodemus.html

Principal Doctrines, by Epicurus

Actually should be: 1) a pamphlet with that title, and 2) a separate bulletin poster.

Happiness is also in the idea of finding new friends while creating a happy shared worldview.