Posts by Kalosyni
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I just added this:
--Avoid using white font color in your postings as this completely disappears in some situations and with some themes.
I want to still add something about setting up notifications, but may not get to that for a few more days.
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I would love to visit such a garden with a smiling Epicurean and a lot of good friends in it!
We can each make it happen, where-ever we live!
Or...we all decide to move to one particular city and create one.
Since I live in the U.S., then that is where I would want to set up a Garden.
Everytime I say that I want to start a Epicurean Philosophy Garden, it sounds rather "grandiose"...and yet everything must first start with an idea.
I've decided I want to start one on the East Coast...now I have only to determine the best location...I am open to feedback on that by anyone who reads this.
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Don the above outline you made is great!!!!!!!
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Furthermore, on the one hand, there are the natural desires; on the other, the 'empty, fruitless, or vain ones.' And of the natural ones, on the one hand, are the necessary ones; on the other, the ones which are only natural; then, of the necessary ones: on the one hand, those necessary for eudaimonia; then, those necessary for the freedom from disturbance for the body; then those necessary for life itself
If you visualize this as a flowchart...this shows that there are three catagories underneath both "natural and necessary":
1) necessary for eudaimonia
2) necessary for freedom from disturbance for the body
3) necessary for life itself
So "necessary for eudaimonia" could encompass a great number of things (things such as friendship...and you could then go as far as including such things a "sexual expression" as necessary for happiness -and- freedom from disturbance of the body).
I feel certain that back in time, this was much more clearly and exactly explained in Epicurus' teachings, but so much of the written teachings didn't survive. Is there anything in Epicurus' writings where we can gain more detail about what is "necessary for eudaimonia"?
Maybe the only way through all of this is to apply common sense and to "scientifically" test it and to make a list of things, and decide which of the three catagories we think they might fall into.
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Here is my response to the Atlantic article...another article (lol)...this is about decision making, which I think has good information for all modern Epicureans to consider (provides a bigger picture of decision making)...some excerpts:
QuoteChocolate or strawberry? Life or death? We make some choices quickly and automatically, relying on mental shortcuts our brains have developed over the years to guide us in the best course of action. Understanding strategies such as maximizing vs. satisficing, fast versus slow thinking, and factors such as risk tolerance and choice overload, can lead to better outcomes.
QuoteWhat is informed decision-making?
The ability to think critically is key to making good decisions without succumbing to common errors or bias. This means not just going with your gut, but rather figuring out what knowledge you lack and obtaining it. When you look at all possible sources of information with an open mind, you can make an informed decision based on facts rather than intuition.
Decision-MakingChocolate or strawberry? Life or death? We make some choices quickly and automatically, relying on mental shortcuts our brains have developed over the years to…www.psychologytoday.com -
8. If a desire appears to be insatiable, it is likely because a person is otherwise unhappy or because the desire is for something impossible.
9. When a person is focused on an impossible desire, such as to live forever, the poor fit of substitute pleasures makes them feel their ordinary desires are insatiable.
(This quote by Marco was originally from Elaine)
I've joined in here a little late...but wanted to say that this really makes sense for me.
Here a helpful analogy from Marshall Rosenberg (originator of Nonviolent Communication):
...Don't go to the hardware store if you want to buy eggs.
So by "empty" we actually mean impossible to fullful.
So much of mental suffering comes when we try to pursue "empty" desires. Some people have stronger habits around pursuing things that are "empty" and are unable to reason what is "empty" and what is real.
About the word "empty" - both the same usage in English and Greek - the word can appy to physical objects or to mental ideas.
Objects that can hold things (boxes, cups, etc.) can at times be empty.
Ideas that can hold things (truth, validity, reason, accuracy) can at times be empty.
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I registered an account because the common-sense interpretation of pleasure as opposed to bread-and-water ataraxia made sense to me, and in order to learn more.
Welcome! Glad you have joined us!
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Hi Everyone, This thread gathers together some usage tips, which may be a helpful guide for new users. Let us know if you have any questions, or any suggestions on things which aren't covered here, thank you
*FORUM USAGE: TIPS AND TOOLS*
To change the forum theme from default to an "easier on the eyes" version: scroll to the bottom of any page, select "Change Style," and then simply click on one of the available options. Some themes can be changed to "dark mode" within the user control panel.
Bookmarks: This is now located in your user control panel. You can bookmark posts and other pages, and they will show up both on your Bookmark page and on the Bookmark section of the sidebar of many pages, near the top right.
Using the Forum Search feature: It is best to select the main forum page to search within the entire forum, otherwise your search will be limited to whatever sub-level you are currently in. A few of our members have noted that they get better search results by using Google search engine and typing in EpicureanFriends.com together with the searched for topic.
Posting Etiquette:
--New Registrants (Level 01) can post their questions in their welcome thread.
--Questions are great and there is no such thing as a "bad" question. Everybody wins - new users can gain new understanding and seasoned users gain through the exercise of giving answers.
--If a similar question was answered in the past, then your question might be answered with a link to the previously posted information. You may want to do a quick search using the "Search feature" or Google (as described above) before asking your question. You can also check here: FAQs.
--If you are not posting a direct question but instead posting a statement to ask if your viewpoint resonates with the forum, then please be sure that your statement directly refers to Epicurean philosophy, Epicurean people, or this Epicurean forum AND make sure it adheres to the "Not Neo-Epicurean but Epicurean" posting policies. Any posts containing "partisan politics", advocating "supernatural religion", or "absolute virtue" will be subjected to consideration for removal.
--When quoting from a source make sure to place that text inside a quote bubble -- simply click the quote tool icon to bring up a quote box (located in the tool bar). This helps to give proper credit to sources and makes it easier to read.
--You can refer to what a forum member said or material contained within a previous post by highlighting that passage with your mouse and then clicking on "insert quote" which pops up as you highlight a sentence.
--You can address your post to a specific postee by typing an "@" symbol in front of the forum member's name (and this will result in a blue highlight). This can be useful when you want to create clarity in responding to others, and it will trigger a notification in their notification system (and by email for infrequent users).
"About Me" section of your profile: You might like to add some info into to your profile page's "About me" section on your hobbies, interests, reading goals, or any reading you have completed. This can only be viewed by registered members.
Follow people: Click on a person's profile and then click on the "person icon" on their profile page. When you click on the "Latest Posts" you will then see an option to click on for sorting incoming new threads according to "Filter by followed users".
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I just finished listening to the podcast...enjoyed it hearing many of the ideas presented, even though there were some hard topics presented (the torture description which I had never heard of before).
It seems to me that this podcast points to tranquil pleasures as being very important.
"We refuse to believe, however, that when pleasure is removed, grief instantly ensues, excepting when perchance pain has taken the place of the pleasure; but we think on the contrary that we experience joy on the passing away of pains, even though none of that kind of pleasure which stirs the senses has taken their place; and from this it may be understood how great a pleasure it is to be without pain." --Cicero, paragraph #56
This explains the importance of absense of pain in Epicureanism.
And there was a comment about Cyrenaics...didn't take notes, so can't restate the exact quote. Instead, I will give this description from Wikipedia:
Quote"The Cyrenaics taught that the only intrinsic good is pleasure, which meant not just the absence of pain (as it did for Epicurus), but positively enjoyable sensations. Of these, momentary pleasures, especially physical ones, are stronger than those of anticipation or memory. They did, however, recognize the value of social obligation and that pleasure could be gained from altruistic behaviour. The school died out within a century and was replaced by the philosophy of Epicureanism."
I just feels like there is so much in common between the two schools. Because even mental pleasures of anticipation or memory exists "in time" and so has a momentary quality.
It is possible that my own belief leans more toward the Cyrenaics. Memory might become more important for me if I grow old and infirm. But for now I both need and want to "indulge" in pleasurable activity...and I choose healthy activities that don't bring pain or problems.
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Have to share my feelings about "The Good Place" clip...on one level it is comedy, and on another level it illustrates how modern civilization might be "devolving" as evinced by the petty thoughts of the characters, and the story line. A few years ago with a friend...watched a few of the very early episodes of "The Good Place" and found it unappealing. Watching this clip reminds me that I can both laugh at comedy and feel disgusted by the underlying ideas presented. Perhaps some people find that internal discord entertaining. I would guess that it was presented here simply as a way to quickly illustrate the "trolley problem".
I haven't listened to the podcast yet...will have more to say after listening.
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For anyone who feels that studying Epicureanism (and the resources on this website) is like an "independent study college course"...then these study tips might be a way of going about it:
Bloom's Taxonomy - remember, understand, appy, analyze, synthesize, evaluate, create:
Higher Order Thinking: Bloom’s Taxonomy – Learning CenterMany students start college using the study strategies they used in high school, which is understandable—the strategies worked in the past, so why wouldn’t…learningcenter.unc.eduConcept Maps – Learning CenterWhat are concept maps? Concept maps are visual representations of information. They can take the form of charts, graphic organizers, tables, flowcharts, Venn…learningcenter.unc.edu -
Just an idea... Maybe we need to collaboratively work on creating more documents in the lexicon section... "wikipedia" type pages... where we organize by topic, using the information presented in the best posts. We could have a simple glossary and links would open to an one or two page overview of each glossary entry. So this would by-pass the complexity of multiple threads. Already there is so much here that it would fill many books.
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My initial intention of this thread was to investigate how to present Epicurean philosophy so that more people could learn and benefit. And that it would be nice to have something simplified for people who want to learn but don't have enough time to dedicate to this forum. This could take the form of an overview, possibly drawn from existing threads, nicely and simply formated for easy viewing:
Will now cross reference this thread which was recently referred to elsewhere:
ThreadHow Would You Answer Someone New Who Asked You: "What Is Epicurean Philosophy All About?"
If you met someone who asked you to explain to them what Epicurean Philosophy is about, how would you introduce them to it, and what are some examples of how it can be applied in everyday life?CassiusSeptember 1, 2019 at 8:08 AM -
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This idea comes to me now...
In Buddhism, when people formally join the community, they take precepts. The precepts contain within them an outline of the ways in which a person is to "do no harm" (to abstain from killing, to abstain from taking what is not given, and to abstain from false speech - being the main ones dealing with non-harming).
Since so much of what Epicurus wrote was lost, we can't know if back in Epicurus' time, his community had some sort of precepts that were taken or agreed upon.
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Matt ...
...I see now that my fears are with an imaginary situation, since the reality is that this forum is virtual and not real life.
This whole discussion only makes sense in real life...in a real kepos, between real people, in real situations.
My question is how to trust other people who are in a shared real life environment? If everyone is pursuing firstly their own individual pleasure, they must also have a believe in the mutual motivation "to cause no harm"...or else there is no trust, and without trust there is no safety.
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Although it is a generally good practice to do no harm, there is no universal imperative to do so. This doesn’t mean everyone needs to be hostile to everyone, but nature tells us that violence is a very significant part of reality. We may not wish to do harm, however humankind follows no unified ideology and the evidence explicitly shows that humans harm each other every moment of the day. The Epicurean has to be ready for anything to preserve the individual’s freedom and pursuit of pleasure…and that may mean a show of force or even as a last resort a violent interaction.
If this is what this online forum advocates and believes then my feeling of a pleasant and safe stay here might have just ended. For I won't be able to trust anyone and that will create fear and trouble in my mind (and very likely also for others).
So this brings me back around to the role of tranquility within Epicureanism, and which we do find evidence of its importance in the Principle Doctrines.
From the materialist understanding of the universe, there is no absolute virtue since there are no gods who mandate this for us. However, we do have a sense of virtue based on the pleasure-pain principle, and when one takes this line of thinking to it's conclusion we come to: "It feels good to be with people who will not harm me" and "It feels good to me to give the gift of non-harming to others". And "I enjoy a certain level of safety and tranquility in my environment and in my internal mental experience".
So now I have come around from an early stance of questioning tranquility... and so now I must embrace tranquility and say:
There is no adequate pleasure without adequate tranquility. And we can only hope to find this in the safety and peace of the Epicurean Garden. AND it seems now also that it must be a mutually agreed upon "contract".
I welcome any comments
Unread Threads
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Philodemus' "On Anger" - General - Texts and Resources 20
- Cassius
April 1, 2022 at 5:36 PM - Philodemus On Anger
- Cassius
July 8, 2025 at 7:33 AM
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Mocking Epithets 3
- Bryan
July 4, 2025 at 3:01 PM - Comparing Epicurus With Other Philosophers - General Discussion
- Bryan
July 6, 2025 at 9:47 PM
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- Replies
- 3
- Views
- 351
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Best Lucretius translation? 12
- Rolf
June 19, 2025 at 8:40 AM - General Discussion of "On The Nature of Things"
- Rolf
July 1, 2025 at 1:59 PM
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- Replies
- 12
- Views
- 970
12
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The Religion of Nature - as supported by Lucretius' De Rerum Natura 4
- Kalosyni
June 12, 2025 at 12:03 PM - General Discussion of "On The Nature of Things"
- Kalosyni
June 23, 2025 at 12:36 AM
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- Replies
- 4
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- 895
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New Blog Post From Elli - " Fanaticism and the Danger of Dogmatism in Political and Religious Thought: An Epicurean Reading"
- Cassius
June 20, 2025 at 4:31 PM - Epicurus vs Abraham (Judaism, Christianity, Islam)
- Cassius
June 20, 2025 at 4:31 PM
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- Replies
- 0
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- 2.1k
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