Posts by Kalosyni

I need to add that if one picks out certain quotes or excerpts from texts of Epicurus then that will result in a particular emphasis on implementing moderation/minimalism in a kind of "black/white--either/or" manner, when in actuality there is a longer process involved which involves learning how to use prudence as a tool which leads to a pleasant and pleasurable life.

And it is important to take in a big picture view, rather than only quick snippets. The quick snippets may work as a starting point, but the next step is understanding the big picture view, which leads to developing practical applications in the modern world that we live in.

What is good about the play and the dialog is that it presents many of the basic ethics of Epicurus, which are taken from the Letter to Menoeceus and the Principal Doctrines.

Yet, there are several ways to "enter" the study of the philosophy, and each way with have differing results:

1) study the ethics only - this is a quick way to try to study, and yet it may end up requiring a kind of "faith" (similar to religion) because the underpinnings of the philosophy may not be fully studied and then the reasons for "why" are not fully understood. This may also lead to "short-cut" ideas like "moderation", "minimalism" and "bread-and-water Epicureanism".

2) study the "way things are" and the ethics at the same time - Epicurus presented a worldview based on "philosophical materialism" and emphasized the utmost importance of understanding the "seeds" and causes of things. We can see this in Lucretius' De Rerum Natura. When we apply the method of studying the causes of things to our everyday lives, then our ethics is more fully informed.

Life does not unfold with a "black/white" or "either/or" set of choices -- we need to test things out, and see what feels good (pleasant/pleasurable) and what feels bad (painful/stressful). From the outside to others it may appear that we practice "moderation", but on the inside we are continually sensitive to what works best based on the unique unfolding of circumstances -- such that what many may think is pleasurable actually is no longer pleasant to us, and we discover that it has no place (and no necessity) for us -- and we aren't giving anything up at all, but instead we are gaining pleasure by abstaining.

Like-wise for pursuing pleasure and "going for it" - we must each evaluate the situation based on our own resources and on our unique physiological needs, again with a kind of "trial-and-error" (and when we are certain that the risks aren't going to bring a terrible outcome).

Implementing the philosophy of Epicurus takes time and effort -- there is a learning curve to making good choices in life and moving toward a pleasant/pleasurable/joyous life.

Regarding the article Pacatus posted above, and the "three brains" (reptilian, mammalian, and primate) -- the "three brains" is no longer the considered the best model for the human brain.

The new model is called the "adaptive brain" and you can read about it here.

We've talked about this in other threads, and I remember posting elsewhere (a while back) on a revised "heirarchy of needs" and here is the likely source...

...excerpt:

Quote

The Updated Hierarchy of Needs

So what replaces self-actualization at the top of this revised hierarchy?

• Parenting takes the top spot, followed by
• Mate retention
• Mate acquisition
• Status/esteem
• Affiliation
• Self-protection
• Immediate physiological needs make up the very base of the pyramid.

According to the researchers, reproduction is the most fundamental biological imperative. For that reason, they placed parenting at the top of their hierarchy.⁵

The proposed revisions to Maslow's original hierarchy did not come without controversy, however. The journal issue containing the revised hierarchy also included four different commentary pieces that offered perspectives on the original and revised versions of the hierarchy.⁵

While many agreed with the basic premise of the revised version, particularly the evolutionary basis for the revisions, many took issue with removing self-actualization as a key motivating need.

Source:

Is Maslow's Famous Hierarchy of Needs Still Relevant Today?

The hierarchy of needs is widely accepted despite little supporting evidence. Is Maslow's hierarchy of needs still relevant today, or is it time for an update?

www.verywellmind.com

***

There are questions that come up as to how useful a heirarchy of needs is...

I ask this: Can we create an "Epicurean heirarchy of needs" ?

These needs would be biological/mental needs that are part of nature. Within these categories would be various options for fullfillment that encompass all temperaments (and we would be able to point to the "seeds" or causes of those needs). Each category would have a kind of "menu" of things to choose from - for example instead of a lifemate a particular person could instead choose to be part of a community club with close friendships, or good friends with workmates, or friends with housemates (who split the cost of rent). There are of course differences and then compensation from other categories may be needed.

(More thoughts on this to come).

Thank you Patrikios for mentioning this in last night's meeting, and there are a lot Epicurean concepts packed into it. After having spent more time with studying, now I can recognize so much more...and will say more soon.

Happy Twentieth!

Here is a paraphrasing regarding gratitude, taken from Vatican Saying 17 and section 133 from the Letter to Menoeceus: Do not stumble around as if you are of many minds, but instead enter the harbor of gratitude because you are now sure of the good things that bring happiness.

...and Happy Thanksgiving to all!

The word "happiness" needs to be defined...because it is both the transitory feeling that arises when human needs are met/fulfilled, and also the feeling of being okay with (or satisfied with) how one's life is unfolding.

We need to feel that there are more moments of joy than vexation, and we need to feel like our life course is sailing along in a satisfactory way.

The quest and desire for "meaning" is brought about by feeling vexation and dissatisfaction with one's life. There is a feeling that something is missing, but what it is...is a mystery... because civilization (and the modern world) has made it difficult to get certain basic human needs met. And then these very basic needs are ignored and made out to be unimportant. Instead there is "God" or "helping others through volunteer work".

The mystery needs to be uncovered, and we can begin to see an indication in Maslow's hierarchy of needs.

In the modern world everyone has a unique take on what is felt to be individually "meaningful" (or important). But something must be tied into a bigger picture of the human life cycle ...either with family or with chosen friends. And then, seeing what came before, what is occuring now, and what will continue on in the future (the next generation) is a kind of transcendence -- seeing the cycle of life and feeling a part of that cycle of life. I would say that this would be an "Epicurean meaning of life" -- both seeing "the way things are", and "teaching the way things are".

Yes, there is a certain point at which you are dead, and the neurons stop firing.

Regarding the word "death" - first of all we see death in movies but often times it isn't depicted realistically --sometimes the person either dies peacefully or suddenly or the pain is minimized.

Also, some people may cognize "death" as a verb and a process - for example "he had a painful death".

And it is important to think about how Epicurus was talking about the state of being dead - so to rephrase it: "once we are dead, that state of being is nothing to us,..."

And here is something to consider: I think there could be a parallel between the experience of birth compared to the experience of death. Often when a person dies they have knowledge and sentient awareness which is different than when a baby is born, and yet there is a process that must occur which takes time and is passage into death.

Another article, here is an excerpt:

Quote

Although death has historically been medically defined as the moment when the heart irreversibly stops beating, recent studies have suggested brain activity in many animals and humans can continue for seconds to hours. In 2013, for instance, University of Michigan neurologist Jimo Borjigin and team found that rats’ brains showed signs of consciousness up to 30 seconds after their hearts had stopped beating. “We have this binary concept of life and death that is ancient and outdated,” Parnia says.

https://www.science.org/content/article/burst-brain-activity-during-dying-could-explain-life-passing-your-eyes

My belief, and after reading the article -- if you've lived a wise and pleasant life, there isn't anything to fear about the 30 seconds (or however long it takes) for consciousness to fully dissipate.

Here is an interesting article, and there may be others with more science details:

After death, you’re aware that you’ve died, say scientists

In recent decades, scientists have been studying near-death experiences (NDEs) to try to gain insights into how death overcomes the brain.

bigthink.com

There is a thread on the discussion of the translation of Principle Doctrine 2 over here:

Thread

PD02 - Best Translation To Feature At EpicureanFriends?

The following post is one of a series so that we can get our collection of the main list of Principal Doctrines under the "Texts" section in better shape. Although this thread will include a "poll" in the next post, what we are really looking for is the "best" combination of faithfulness to the original combined with clarity in modern English. I will get with a collection of the Level 3 participants here to work on editing the final list, but the full discussion should be open to everyone to…

Cassius

July 12, 2023 at 12:02 PM

This is the updated description for the "Advocate" badge:

In recognition of members who have created Epicurean philosophy reference, study, or teaching materials such as documents, articles, YouTube videos, pamphlets, books, social media materials, external Epicurean philosophy websites, or events such as seminars or symposiums. Regarding the badge graphic: DeWitt gives evidence in his book "Epicurus and His Philosophy" that the Epicureans were "pamphleteers", and this was important for the spread of Epicureanism. Now in our time we see how important it is to create methods and materials for sharing the philosophy. The leaping pig image captures the joy of being alive, and the leaping pig was a symbol used by ancient Epicureans.

Also, those who have received this now have brief descriptions of their contributions next to their names on the badge page. (If you would like the description changed or something added, send me a private message please, or if I missed anybody let me know).

Advocate - Epicureanfriends.com

Members who have created Epicurean philosophy reference, study, or teaching materials such as documents, articles, YouTube videos, pamphlets, books, social…

www.epicureanfriends.com

Here is another article:

The Hubble Tension Is Extremely Real—and Extremely Frustrating

We still don’t know why different measurements of the rate of the universe’s expansion don’t match. But at least we know we can’t blame the Hubble Telescope.

www.popularmechanics.com

Quote

When experiment and theory diverge, it can mean one of two things—either your measurement is wrong, or your theory is wrong. And that, in a nutshell is the Hubble tension. Which is wrong, the theory or the experiment?

Badges have been given out...if we have missed anyone, please let us know!

There is now a new forum member badge: Advocate

This is awarded to forum members who support the ongoing process of sharing Epicurean philosophy with others through the creation of reference, study, or teaching materials such as documents, articles, YouTube videos, pamphlets, books, social media materials, external Epicurean philosophy websites, or events such as seminars or symposiums

Quote from Matteng

I see they some include/not include awareness/ attention / appreciation, so there is an active / virtuous activity to feel these pleasures.

Vatican Saying 17: "It is not the young man who is most happy, but the old man who has lived beautifully; for despite being at his very peak the young man stumbles around as if he were of many minds, whereas the old man has settled into old age as if in a harbor, secure in his gratitude for the good things he was once unsure of."

This says that the "young man" can look to and learn from the "old man" about how to live happily.

Gratitude is pleasurable, and there is no need to label it "a virtue".

Quote from Cassius

Why does Epicurus consider the absence of pain to be pleasure?

When pain is absent from the body, the appreciation of that experience is mentally enjoyable.

***

And here is a full list of pleasures:

- enjoyable and pleasant bodily sensations (sights, sounds, tastes, touch, smell, etc.)

- the cessation of pain in the body (when pain is no longer present) (pain = sharp, piercing, burning, stinging, throbing, heavy)

- awareness that the body is healthy (no pain present)

- enjoyable and pleasant mental feelings and thoughts (joy, clarity, calm, strength, gratitude)

- the cessation of unpleasant emotions (fear, worry, anxiety)

- awareness of a clear mind free from unpleasant emotions (fear, worry, anxiety)

Quote from Matteng

What speaks against the idea that intense sensual pleasures go beyond the limit of absence of pain? (my ideas: short-livedness, negative consequences of maintaining these pleasures e.g. numbness, hedonic treadmill, costs, ungratefulness, harming friendships and other values ( which are in core Pleasure) ...)

Instead of "short-livedness" and as long as the pleasure didn't cause unwanted/painful consequences, then one would simply feel a sense of gratitude and appreciation to life for having been able to experience that particular short-lived pleasure.

As for anything that feels like it is a "hedonic treadmill"...I would suggest slowing down and putting more attention on the specific experiences and to "open up the senses" to be fully present both in your mind and body.

Quote from Julia

To partially concur and partially expand on what has been said during this episode regarding the discussion of suicide as a sign that someone might have accepted the notion of fate, providence; in my experience, that is only rarely the case. Rather, suicide is the last line of defence, the ultimate boundary a person — a self, as opposed to a body — can set and enforce.

Julia thanks for sharing your thoughts.

I think that there are people on both sides of this saying that suicide is a choice and those that say suicide is not a choice because it seen as the only option.

When I attended a Buddhist group, there were two younger men who committed suicide a few years apart. I partially point to and blame the passive nature of the Buddhist philosophy and the constant preaching of the "acceptance of what is". (and of course Buddhists don't say much about seeking pleasure).

Yes as you say there are many cognitive distortions that need to be corrected, and also I think an important element is overcoming a sense of powerlessness and instead learning how to make change happen in one's life. By regaining a feeling of being effective and a sense of personal power to do what needs to be done to minimize pains AND increase pleasures, the suicidal thoughts can disappear. Life must have some sweetness in it, so regaining the power to experience pleasure is paramount.

"Nothing comes from nothing" = there are causes for what exists and there are conditions (natural laws) that everything is conditioned and governed by...cows don't pop out of thin air, because they depend on causes and conditions of the material world of matter.

This would be better as a cartoon, but here it goes anyway...lol.

Person A: "I'm trying to find my big heavy winter coat and I just looked inside the guest room closet where I thought I put it at the end of last winter...but there was nothing in the closet!"

Person B: "You better go look again, because I'm sure that there is something in there."

Person A: "Oh yeah? Do you think it magically appeared?"

We then see Person A and Person B go and look inside the closet.

Person B: "See, look at all that dust in the bottom of the closet! I told you there was something in there!"