Posts by Bryan

P.Herc. 4 has been around just as a place holder, I have never seen any text from it (except for the clips in this article). Hopefully they fully release what they have.

Quote from Pacatus

Using the metaphor of a two-humped bactrian camel?

I had not even thought of that! Given we are talking about "two similar causes" this could be a possibility.

This text has some great content, and is simpler than On the Senses:

"People see gods as responsible for all evils, creators of ongoing and future misfortunes throughout endless time, including what comes after death. If these elements weren't connected, people wouldn't fear the gods more than tyrants. They dread death as if, after life, they will be tortured in eternal retribution by the gods, leading to a fear of the gods as the doers of evil in the underworld, and death as leading to fiery torment. Just as people feared Phalaris, thinking he would roast them in the bull, and [they also feared] the bull itself, as the place of roasting -- in the same way, hearing any related word caused equal fear for both, and not less for either, even towards the source of the sound. Similarly, with the gods and death, we don't consider both a double evil, neither the direct nor the indirect threat. If we avoid extreme misery and mental harm by facing pain with a rational mind, we can overcome the worst; for with understanding, we shouldn't see death as a double or untamed evil. (P.Herc. 26, col. 19)"

Maybe even the largest. Philodemus' On the Stable Conduct of the Gods - Book I (P.Herc. 26) mentions Eudoxus of Cnidus who he says wrote On Solar Eclipses (Περὶ Ἀφανισμῶν Ἡλιακῶν).

Then he says "...since, of his contradictory arguments, Diogenes said that Eudoxus (Εὔδοξον) was the largest (μέγιστον) camel (κάμηλον)." (col. 21) "ἐπειδὴ τῶν ἀντιλογικῶν δ' Εὔδοξο[ν ὁ Διο]γένης κάμηλ[ο]ν μέγι[στο]ν ἔλεγεν"

The only hint I have is that he quotes Eudoxus, who said "it is impossible to decide, if one hesitates (διστάσης) between two similar causes, whether this one or that is more responsible."

Do we have any ideas what this means? I suppose it could be a reference to being stubborn? This is another text I do not have in English (but there must be one).

I think the only aspect where there was some confusion was in the "list making" or "numbering." Epicurus was casual about "all the senses," others do not like this and wish to number them.

Epicurus to Herodotus [38b] (Hicks) Next, we must by all means stick to our sensations, that is, simply to the present impressions whether of the mind or of any criterion whatever, and similarly to our actual feelings, in order that we may have the means of determining that which needs confirmation and that which is obscure.

Hello! Welcome.

It is possible that you are thinking about this work: https://archive.org/details/Epicur…age/11/mode/2up

Given that there is a translation, I am going to abandon what little I started here and move on. Thanks again TauPhi.

I think that "the pictorial views of the mind" (phantastikai epibolai tes dianoias) is just a description of the the "visual stereotypes" (prolepseis), and thus they are used interchangeably.

We also have Philodemus On Home Economics (column 20, Tsouna translation):

"we must refer to the preconception that we possess about 'a good moneymaker,' ask in whom the content of that preconception is substantiated and in what manner that person makes money, and ascribe the predicate 'good moneymaker' [to whoever it may be in whom] those features are attested"

Regarding "meditation"(Bailey), "pleasant recollection" (Anderson), "thoughtful concern" (Cook) vs. "taking care of them" (Elli)...

I think everybody is correct! When alive we "care for / look after / attend to" those around us, and when they are gone we "care for / look after / attend to" our pleasant memories of them.

Quote from Cassius

It's a real challenge to think about where this goes in terms of how to convey the difference in meaning of words.

In a general sense, this was also a struggle at the time. Epicurus says, talking to Metrodorus (David Sedley translation, On Nature Part 28):

(Fragment 6, Column 1) "For it was so necessary to point out that we, by observing that those who speak the same language as us, in contrast to our own use of words, were assigning some unsuspected false connotation in addition to those meanings…

(fr. 13, col. 2) ...and you also used in those days to assign [names] without adapting certain conventional usages, in order that you should not make plain the principle that by assigning any name one expresses a particular opinion, and see and reflect upon the indiscriminate treatment of words and objects. (fr. 13, col. 3) And I too used to notice that you did not establish a difference between two sets of words and then say that you chose one set because it was better than choosing the other...

(fr. 13, col. 5 sup.) Perhaps , though, you might say that it is inappropriate to lengthen the discussion by citing these cases. Quite so, Metrodorus. For I do not doubt that you could cite many cases, from your own past observations, of certain people taking words in various ridiculous senses, and indeed in every sense in preference to their actual linguistic meanings, whereas our own usage does not flout linguistic convention, nor do we alter names with regard to the objects of perception.

(fr. 13, col. 5 inf.) ... not because] others transfer words from the class of that which is knowable to denote that which is unknowable, but because of their own errors, which we point out in our work On Ambiguity."

Quote from Pacatus

Zeno was Philodemus' teacher.

Yes, we have in Signs (P. Herc. 1065) Philodemus says "Zeno, in his discussions with us, used to set forth the arguments of our opponents, and he made use of the answers that have been given."

Interestingly Philodemus does concede familiarity of Zeno to a certain fellow-Epicurean named Bromius. Philodemus starts the second section of Signs saying "Bromius, however, used to say that Zeno expounded the beliefs of our opponents and the answers to them in the following way..."

It is interesting that this is out of Brigham Young University and most of the good recent translations of Philodemus have been from the Society of Biblical Literature.

(Fpr example https://www.sbl-site.org/assets/pdfs/pubs/061633P.front.pdf)

Wow great find, thank you! So a certain Justin Barney was ahead of us and did this in 2015. I am working on something that looks very similar, but, in this regard, "the more the merrier," and this will help. Thanks again!

Does anybody know of a translation of Philodemus' work "On the Senses"? I have not been able to find any.

When I have tried asking AI about Lucretius and ask for references it typically says it cannot access the Latin text and then I argue with it about copyright. When it does give a reference it is usually incorrect. Success only occurred once or twice and then I gave up. However, it is proving useful as a dictionary.

I like the idea that they were used for knitting... or for candles. You may have seen them on ebay, for about $50.

wow, that makes sense, well I'll be ready then!

I dont think I have attended one of the Monday meetings before, but I'd like to tonight!

Yes, and it's not some random article - but this is THE section on death in the Oxford handbook.

"Recent debate among philosophers began with the realization that whether death is bad for people depends on 'assumptions about good and evil.' ...Only if one gives up Epicurus's principle that good and bad require sentience and adopts an alternative could one rightly think that death is bad for people. The alternative principle is that something may have value for someone, even if it has and can have no effects on the person in question" (pg 125)

"If death can have value in these ways, can be bad or good in relation to continued life, then it might appear that Epicurus was mistaken in believing that because the dead lack sentience death can have no value for people... People with this abstract idea of value attach good and bad for people to facts, which they regard as positive or negative... This abstract conception of value is a tool in the range of judgments people make, and has its place in making important judgments." (pg 129)

Thank you! Yes for that quote we also need the "ομαι" from the next column to give us: τοῦτ οἶδα καὶ τοῦτο βούλομαι καὶ τοῦτ οἴομαι