"happy on the rack" is hard to accept as a simple premise. Perhaps Raimondi had this basic idea in mind.
But "having an enduring sense of mental well-being while in great pain" is possible and realistic -- of course Epicurus himself provided an example of this at the end of his life. I also saw it in my grandfather.
Very interesting letter, thank you for the reading Cassius!
According to the Cambridge edition of Diogenes Laertius, the "nor" or "not" in translations such as "[Nor will] he groan and howl when he is put to the torture" comes from a corruptela (corruption) in the text, which they give in daggers:
μόνον τε χάριν ἔξειν τὸν σοφόν, καὶ ἐπὶ φίλοις καὶ παροῦσι καὶ ἀποῦσιν ὁμοίως διά τε †οδουχ† ὅτε μέντοι στρεβλοῦται, ἔνθα καὶ μύζει καὶ οἰώζει.
The manuscripts all do different weird things at that point, so most of the writers of the surviving manuscripts also scratched their heads here and made their best guess. I think it can be ignored.
Aristotle conceived of eudaimonia as requiring activity.
Yes Aristotle digs a deep hole for himself when he insists that "Pleasure does not occur except in action!" Eudḗmeian Ethics, 8.1249a: οὐ γίνεται δὲ ἡδονὴ μὴ ἐν πράξει). I cannot imagine reality (or Epicurus) agreeing with Aristotle on this point!
Perhaps eudaimonia requires action, but blessedness doesn't?
It seems that being alive requires having sensations of actions as well as sensations of condition.
It seems that eudaimonia isn't just a fleeting emotion of giddiness that arises when you get something that you want, but instead it is an expansive sense of fulfillment and completeness.
Yes, you must be correct. I think "well-being" has most of the same sense -- it is our deeply internal and long-enduring sense of well-being. Of course, we can easily see how well-being is closely connected with the pleasure of being alive.
Here you can find the transcription, at the very least:
Epicurus-Deperditorum librorum reliquiae
Wow! This will be very helpful -- thank you so much! I have been using a "PDF to text" version of Usener and correcting it back to match the book. This is the smooth transcription I have been looking for! I am happy to have it now at the beginning of the project, it would be unfortunate to find it towards the end!
there together with transcription, photos of the fragments, sketches and engravings.
Yes that is a great resource for the primary texts -- for P.Herc. 163 I am just looking around for a translation before I start hazarding through and trying to make one (they are not part of Eriks work).
For Usener's "Vol. Herc. 2, 10.201 fr. 44." however -- I dont know what the P.Herc. number is or have any access the primary text beyond what Usener gives.
a start...
Thank you Don, that book does have the same quotes. One issue, however, is that, given it is also an old German book, it is giving the same old version listing of the P.Herc that Usener provides. So far, I have not able to find the corresponding Digital Corpus of Literary Papyri number for the quote.
Good stuff starts on page 37.
Another win from Brigham Young! Thank you TauPhi. Erik Anderson does not provide translations for a lot of the Philodemus quotes. This paper covers P. Herc. 1570, which is Philodemus, On Wealth, Book number unknown -- and I am saving it for when we get there! But in the U40's Usener is pulling from Philodemus, On Wealth, Book 1, which corresponds to P.Herc. 163.
This was another good one -- thank you!
So many good points!
"This view, that we are a soul trapped in the body, is at the heart of so much of this wrong thinking that you see in the ancient world" Well summed-up Joshua!
Looking at U41, Usener says the author is uncertain and gives the citation "Vol. Herc. 2, 10.201 fr. 44" and the text "…καὶ ἄλ]ληι κἀν [τῶι Περὶ Ὁ]σιότηιτ[ος, κἀν τῶι] δωδεκάτωι καὶ] τρεισκα[ιδεκάτωι] Περὶ Φύσε[ως, κἀν τῶι] πρώτω[ι τῶν περὶ] Τιμοκράτους."
I am unable to find the P.Herc. for this quote. Any ideas about finding a source for the text would be much appreciated.
Also, do we have any translations of Philodemus On Wealth?
In the context of Philista, we have "ἐκ μειρακίου" ("lad, stripling") but I think that could go either way. We also have:
P.Herc. 1027 col. 15
...ὃν ὁρῶμεν εὑρηκέ-
[ναι περὶ τ]ῶν [κ]υρι̣ωτά-
των δι[αλ]όγισμα γνήσ[ι-]
ον π̣αρ̣' αὐτῆι...
Which is something like: ".…[whom] we recognize to have identified an authentic deliberation on key subjects about her..."
Also at the end we have "ΚΑΡΝΕΙΣΚΟΥ ΦΙΛΙΣΤΑ Β." So I think we have a woman "Philista" that Carneiscus is writing about.
Carneiscus address a certain "Zōpyrus" and writes about how good a person Philista was. He also touches on the topic of depression after the death of a friend and critiques Praxiphanes.
Cassius, I think what you said here in the intro and at (20:00 -- 20:20) is exactly what Epicurus wanted us to be clear about -- it is more important that we (1) get a clear view about what we are talkng about, rather than (2) use the most precise words. Of course, both are good goals to have!
Great podcast everybody!
As you said, the idea of "joy" in that sentence is coming from kairon.
"...ἀντιπαρετάττετο δὲ πᾶσι τούτοις τὸ κατὰ ψυχὴν χαῖρον ἐπὶ τῇ τῶν γεγονότων ἡμῖν διαλογισμῶν μνήμῃ."
...but over against them all I set gladness of mind at the remembrance of our past contemplations.
We can always organize our lives and our minds to better prevent pain and also "hold our ground against" existing pain. Good points, thanks again!
Epicurus doesn't say the "joy" outweighs or conquers the pain of his condition. The word used is Ἀντιπαρατάσσομαι (antiparatassomai) which conveys "holding one's ground against, and in drawing up troops in battle order, side by side, ready to do battle against an enemy."
There is NO τοῦ κακοῦ (“evil”) in the manuscript! That’s an addition…
Great points, Don, thank you! I have noticed that Perseus has been slow again lately, I wanted to recommend this site, which I just started using.
PHILISTAS of LAMPSACUS (4th – 3rd-century BCE) inspired Carneiscus to write
What do we know of Philista/ Philistas? I am just looking through Carneiscus - Philista Book 2 (P.Herc. 1027) but so far I am unsure about the final "s" and gender of Philistas! Also, it seems there is no text remaining from book 1?
Usener in his Epicurea went even further than this in calling Laertius a 'complete ass'. Which is a touch uncharitable to my taste, but there you have it.
Yes, here we have it:
(Usener, Intro, Page 22) "However many who called Laertius either a poor compiler or, as Roethius of Heidelberg kindly did, a 'true donkey' have honored him too much, who, to put it succinctly, did not even write but left the writing to his scribes."
(Illi et quotquot Laertium siue misellum conpilatorem siue ut Roethius Heidelbergensis solebat humaniter “asinum germanum” dictitarunt nimio eum honore affecerunt, qui, ut uno uerbo dicam, ne scripsit quidem sed scribenda librariis commisit.)
I memorized it in Latin, and Latin Per Diem on YouTube is a great place to start.
I don't think I have seen this before, but I've watched few now and he does a great job.
I can read this particular short section of this one text in Latin because I've worked on it, just like your average Catholic in the days before Vatican II could read the Nicene creed in Latin
I have always felt the same way.
I'll throw this in as well:
Plato, Philebus 21c: (Socrates) And likewise, if you had no memory you could not even remember that you ever did enjoy pleasure, and no recollection whatever of present pleasure could remain with you; if you had no true opinion you could not think you were enjoying pleasure at the time when you were enjoying it, and if you were without power of calculation you would not be able to calculate that you would enjoy it in the future; your life would not be that of a man, but of some mollusc (τινος πλεύμονος) or some other shell-fish like the oyster.
Note "Πλεύμων" which is the term Epicurus used for Nausiphanes.
what do you make of Erik Anderson's translation of U56 that renders ΣTOIXEIΩΣEIΣ ΔΩΔEKA as "Doctrine of the Elements (12 Books)"?
Thank you for asking this question!
Yeah, I'm not seeing this as "12 volumes" but rather as a summary of something with 12 items.
I agree. Thank you for your comments here Don. my guess is one book about 12 principles, but I have no further evidence beyond what you have already provided.
There's no way to tell what those 12 basics were (other than the 1, 2, or 3 stated there
Sad but true. Still, I cannot help but appreciate the efforts of those who try to make a list (because I am not so bold).
Placita means "pleasing things,” or “preferred things” but in a philosophical context, it means "tenets," "opinions," or "views." Τὰ Ἀρέσκοντα (Ta Areskonta) literally means "the preferred things" or "things that are pleasing." This matches the meaning of "Placita." The transition from "the pleasing things" to "tenets" or "opinions" makes sense in a philosophical context, where what pleases or satisfies intellectual criteria becomes a tenet or an accepted view. An expanded name may possibly have been (from Ps. Plutarch) Περὶ τῶν ἀρεσκόντων φιλοσόφοις φυσικῶν δογμάτων "Regarding the physical theories preferred by philosophers." The authors in the Loeb edition say, “In all probability, therefore, the lost original work had the title Περὶ τῶν ἀρεσκόντων, On the Placita (the Latin equivalent is De placitis).”
I will add some related quotes from the authors of this Loeb edition:
“The original treatise is incompletely preserved and has to be reconstructed from evidence in two main authors (with further assistance from a third). Diels had produced his reconstruction in two column and was thus unable to provide a single authoritative text. For this reason it was never translated into any modern language, with the exception of a double column Italian version (Torraca, I dossografi greci).”
“The name of the author of the compendium can be deduced from cross-references in Theodoret. Three times the bishop refers by name to the sources for the information he has on the doctrines of the philosopher, on one occasion also adding the titles of the works he used.”
“No ancient author with the name Aetius is known who can plausibly be connected with the compendium. As for the date of the work, the latest time of the composition, i.e., its tempus ante quem, is furnished by Ps. Plutarch’s Epitome, which from the evidence of the Christian apologist Athenagoras, must have been completed by about AD 150. For the earliest time of composition, i.e., its tempus post quem, we have to use the evidence of its content. The last philosopher to be mentioned is the Peripatetic philosopher Xenarchus of Seleucia, whose death occurred in the final years BC.”
“The Placita shows evidence of the beginnings of the Middle Platonist movement, which is to be dated to the period 50 BC to AD 50”
“As for the place of composition, the work itself gives no clues of any kind. Alexandria has been suggested, but this is no more than an educated guess. All that can be said is that the author must have had access to a considerable body of information on the doctrines of ancient philosophers.”
Placita (Loeb Classical Library) https://a.co/d/hibjlEJ
Aëtiana V: An Edition of the Reconstructed Text of the Placita With a Commentary and a Collection of Related Texts (Philosophia Antiqua, 153) (English, Greek and Latin Edition) https://a.co/d/767F1uL
And yes that is part of what I need on the "all sensations are true part - the sensations are always "true" but the opinions about what the sensations mean certainly are not always true.
Yes, errors in our thinking come from internal processes rather than external sources. This is despite the fact that our thoughts are triggered by external images impacting the mind. While our understanding starts with external stimuli, it is how our mind handles these stimuli internally that can lead to mistakes.
[Epicurus DL X 51b] (Yonge) "And, on the other side, error could not be possible, if we did not receive some other motion also, a sort of initiative of intelligence connected, it is true, with direct representation, but going beyond that representative. These conceptions being connected with direct perception which produces the representation, but going beyond it."
(Epicurus Book 28, Sedley trans, fr. 13, col. 6 inf.) "I also frequently reflected that if, when I raised difficulties which someone might have turned against us, he should claim that what used to be assimilated from ordinary language was the same as used to be practiced in the written work, many might well conclude that in those days false opinion was represented in that language, whether through an empirical process, an image-based process, or a theoretical process, or through a non-empirical process, not following one of our current divisions, but simply arising from an internal movement; but that now, because the means of expression is adapted to additional ends, discrimination provides a lead towards the truth. However, let no one ever try to get even with you by linking with you any trace of this suspicion; but [turn] to the entire faculty of empirical reasoning…
(Aetius 4.8.10) “Leucippus, Democritus, and Epicurus say that sensation and thought arise in the soul from images that approach from outside, for neither of these can occur to anyone without the image falling upon him.”
(Aetius 4.9.5 - 6) “Epicurus says that every sensation and every impression is true, but of the opinions some are true and some false; and sensation gives us a false picture in one respect only, namely with regard to objects of thought; but the impression does so in two respects, for there is impression of both sense objects and objects of thought. Parmenides, Empedocles, Anaxagoras, Democritus, Epicurus, and Heraclides say that the particular sensations of their own object occur in accordance with the matching sized of the pores, each of the sense objects corresponding to each sense.”
