Posts by Don

I attended tonights Wednesday night VS Study Group and the VS under discussion was 64... with varying translations! It was great. Then I realized we didn't have the source text from the manuscript. So... here we are.

Saint-Andre gives the Greek as:

ἀκολουθεῖν δεῖ τὸν παρὰ τῶν ἄλλων ἔπαινον αὐτόματον, ἡμᾶς δὲ γενέσθαι περὶ τὴν ἡμῶν ἰατρείαν.

Which looks correct to me from the manuscript.

He gives the translation of: The esteem of others is outside our control; we must attend instead to healing ourselves.

Bailey gives: Praise from others must come unasked: we must concern ourselves with the healing of our own lives.

Epicurus Wiki gives: The [praise] by others [ought to follow] automatically while [we] (ought) to concern ourselves with own (own) healing.

I would paraphrase this as: One must accept the spontaneous praise from others; but we are the ones who heal ourselves. Which means to me that we should accept praise or approval from others if it is automatic. We shouldn't trust the flatterer, but if someone spontaneously tells us we did a nice thing, take the compliment! But we need not rely on that. We know ourselves better than anyone else. If we give ourselves praise, then we know we truly deserve it!

Want to see the sausage making process? Let's break this down word by word (relying somewhat on the good ol' Wiktionary)

δεῖ = It is necessary to... One must...

ἀκολουθεῖν = to follow one in a thing, let oneself be led by [+dative or rarely accusative = someone or something] ... LSJ also has metaphorically, follow, be guided by;

So, what's the accusative or dative someone or something?

τὸν παρὰ τῶν ἄλλων ἔπαινον αὐτόματον = (accusative) This has an embedded phrase...

παρὰ τῶν ἄλλων = παρα is governed by the genitive, accusative, and dative and has different meanings with each! τῶν ἄλλων is genitive, so the genitive implies "from" or "because of" LSJ gives: "WITH GEN. prop. denoting motion from the side of, from beside, from" So, παρὰ τῶν ἄλλων would be, it appears, something "from others"

ἔπαινον = acc.sing. of "approval, praise" or "an expression of praise; a speech praising someone."

αὐτόματον = unbidden, spontaneous, "without external cause."

So, ἀκολουθεῖν δεῖ τὸν παρὰ τῶν ἄλλων ἔπαινον αὐτόματον = It is necessary (It behooves one) to follow the spontaneous praise of others; ...

ἡμᾶς δὲ γενέσθαι περὶ τὴν ἡμῶν ἰατρείαν. = but we produce/bring into being the ἰατρείαν for ourselves.

ἰατρείαν = medical treatment; curing, correcting (brings in that whole medical analogy that Epicurus uses in other locations!)

Quote from Nate

We have historical evidence of doctrinal disputes between geographically isolated Gardens, and those disputes seem to be resolved by the Athenian Scholarch,

Do you have the references for that? I'd be curious to follow-up one those!

I've seen bumper stickers like "Kindness is my religion" and that sort of thing, too.

Eikadistes : I think the title sounds cool and I was unaware of the Apostolicon and the other history, but my pop culture mind went straight to Necronomicon when I saw your title the first time

That Wikipedia entry offers a better translation of superstitiō is "religiosity" as opposed to "superstition." Keeping this in mind helps.

And translation of religio is "religious scruple" instead of just "religion."

Those Latin spellings can imply meanings of English words that are not actually present, regardless of the similar spelling.

PS. On further thought, "superstition" could be an acceptable translation of religio since religio is concerned with the outward performance of the correct rituals in hope of a favorable benefit from the gods. It's akin to someone now carrying a rabbits foot for good luck or crossing your fingers or knocking on wood, etc.

Quote from Cassius

The "super" is probably very clear - I wonder what the "stitio" refers to?

It's from superstō + -tiō < super + stō

"To stand upon or over"

Quote from Nate

Where does that leave the word "Superstitio" in relation to "Pietas" and "Religio"?

And, as a further point, why did Lucretius not use "Superstitio"?

This helps...

Glossary of ancient Roman religion - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

superstitio
Superstitio was excessive devotion and enthusiasm in religious observance, in the sense of "doing or believing more than was necessary", or "irregular" religious practice that conflicted with Roman custom. ...Before the Christian era, superstitio was seen as a vice of individuals.

Lucretius' opposition to religio in favor of pietas conveys to me possibly the difference between outward "proper" performance of rituals expected of one versus the inward reason for performing those rites and rituals. Epicurus took part in the rites, festivals, and rituals of his city BUT with the proper inward piety.

Thank you for all you do to keep our little virtual Garden up and running! It is sincerely appreciated.

Quote from sanantoniogarden

I suppose one of the main difficulties initially, is how we can reconcile Epicurus' physics with modern physics?

My take has been to concentrate on what Epicurus's big takeaway was in his physics: We live in a material universe, governed by natural, physical laws with no supernatural or divine intervention. The rest are details. Prescient details for the most part, but I'm not worried by the details. Plus, ancient Greek atoms (ΑΤΟΜΟΙ) are not the atoms of modern physics, the name not withstanding. But Epicurus did get the general idea of small particles coming together to make a whole different than their individual characteristics. I do not, in any way, feel an obligation to adhere to the pre-scientific physics of 2,300 years ago to think of myself as an Epicurean. That said, I do think Epicurus was on the right track at least on a lot of his physics.

I hope that helps.

Welcome aboard, sanantoniogarden !! It's good that you've perused material presented here before. That should give you a good idea of where we're coming from.

I am curious when you mentioned:

Quote from sanantoniogarden

Epicureanism, despite its difficulties...

I would be interested to hear what you see as difficulties. I would bet that some of us have had the same thoughts, and it sounds like it might be a good discussion thread

Quote from Don

Welcome aboard, aragen. Thank you for the introductry post on how you ended up here. I highly recommend Emily Austin's book Living for Pleasure as a wonderful, approachable, conversational, modern introduction to the philosophy.

I look forward to your questions and contributions to the forum.

Excellent summary of the historical context! Thanks for posting.

Welcome aboard, aragen. Thank you for the introductry post on how you ended up here. I highly recommend Emily Austin's book Living for Pleasure as a wonderful, approachable, conversational, modern introduction to the philosophy.

I like forward to your questions and contributions to the forum.

I'm not sure I'll be able to attend in person tonight, so I wanted to wish everyone a very Joyous Twentieth and a Happy Birthday to Epicurus!!

I always like to go back to Philodemus's epigram inviting Piso to the 20th celebration in Herculaneum on this day:

αὔριον εἰς λιτήν σε καλιάδα, φίλτατε Πείσων,

ἐξ ἐνάτης ἕλκει μουσοφιλὴς ἕταρος,

εἰκάδα δειπνίζων ἐνιαύσιον: εἰ δ᾽ ἀπολείψεις

οὔθατα καὶ Βρομίου χιογενῆ πρόποσιν,

ἀλλ᾽ ἑτάρους ὄψει παναληθέας, ἀλλ᾽ ἐπακούσῃ

Φαιήκων γαίης πουλὺ μελιχρότερα:

ἢν δέ ποτε στρέψῃς καὶ ἐς ἡμέας ὄμματα, Πείσων,

ἄξομεν ἐκ λιτῆς εἰκάδα πιοτέρην.

***

And, yes, it is udders οὔθατα and wine from the island of Chios Βρομίου χιογενῆ:

"During the Hellenistic period, the island also had become the largest exporter of Greek wine, which was noted for being of relatively high quality (see "Chian wine"). Chian amphoras, with a characteristic sphinx emblem and bunches of grapes, have been found in nearly every country with whom the ancient Greeks traded. These countries included Gaul, Upper Egypt, and Southern Russia" (Wikipedia)

You can find ancient recipes online for udders if y'all would like to try those.

Here's some discussion too this point:

Post

RE: Episode 175 - "Epicurus And His Philosophy" Part 27 - Chapter 12 - The New Hedonism 04

We mentioned the circumplex in today's episode. Here are some resources:

https://psu.pb.unizin.org/psych425/chapt…cumplex-models/

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2367156/



PS: From my perspective, Epicurus included *everything* to the right of the vertical axis in his definition of pleasure. The Cyrenaics, for example, only included the upper right quadrant.

Don

May 21, 2023 at 2:14 PM

See also:

Apiqoros: The Last Essays of Salomon Maimon - Hebrew Union College Press

Before the Enlightenment, before Spinoza had rejected traditional beliefs about the Bible, came the humanistic skeptics of the Renaissance. Alongside such…

press.huc.edu

https://www.jstor.org/stable/23509248

(I'll try and follow-up on that jstor paper)

Heresy and the Formation of the Rabbinic Community

books.google.com

This is all fascinating! Evidently there's maybe more to the Epicurean link to Antiochus Epiphanes than I initially expected. Do we know how far back Apiqoros goes in Hebrew? To the time of the Maccabees?

On Dune, Joshua shared this previously and it includes the additional mention of "Bicouros of Shaitan; "a lazy missionary of the devil"

Thread

A Funny Thing Happened on the Way to Arrakis

So I've been thinking of getting into some light game modding and I've been getting into the worldbuilding side of Frank Herbert's Dune, one of the greatest sci-fi worlds ever made. His stories are set in our galaxy, but in a far distant future where Earth is nothing but a faint memory and mankind has spread across the stars. Herbert's narrative texture relies for its effect on extrapolating the development of human language, religion, and folkways across this vast scale of time, and words from…

Joshua

September 18, 2022 at 10:05 PM

Quote from Cassius

does an analogy of ripples on an ocean have any different emotional impact or philosophical implication than the particles in space analogy?

For me, no difference.

I get the same sense of awe when thinking that the iron in my blood was forged in the heart of long dead stars, the oxygen I breathe is from the respiration of plants, the light that enters my eyes from Orion's Belt has been traveling for unimaginably long times before I sense it. It's only a matter of different levels of thinking about my connection to other people, other life forms, and the vast universe itself.

PS. And I need to add that that connection isn't metaphorical or mystical or supernatural, it's literal. I am literally connected to everything else in a physical, tangible, material way. From the atoms that make me up coming from dead stars, to the air I breathe coming from plants, the acquintances and friends and relatives and acestors I have that come from all over the world, I am a result of all those connections rippling and bubbling and waving through the cosmos and out into the infinite All.

We've been having some heavy discussions on the forum recently, so, as a mind/palate cleanser, I present an Instagram post I found of baby pigs. That first one seems to certainly be pursuing pleasure!

https://www.instagram.com/p/C1t7vJYpoaO/