Posts by Don
Listen to the latest Lucretius Today Podcast! Episode 226 is now available. We begin (with the help of Cicero's Epicurean spokesman) the first of a series of episodes to analyze the Epicurean view of the nature of the gods.
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I find it interesting that the phrase is often translated as "Live unknown" as if the imperative verb is "Live!". But the verb here is λάθε:
Linguistically, the phrase λαθε βιωσας uses the verb λανθανω, which I think is unique to Ancient Greek: it roughly means ‘to escape the notice of…’ takes the accusative of the person whose attention you avoid and the participle of the action you do without the person noticing. Complicated! The phrase literally means “Escape the notice [of everyone?] having lived your life”.
λαθε= inflection of λᾰνθᾰ́νω (lanthánō):
second-person singular aorist active imperative
It's also a singular imperative. It's addressed to one person.
A. (active) to escape notice
1. (transitive) escape a person's notice
2. (transitive) to do [+participle or rarely infinitive = something] without being noticed [+accusative = by someone]
So, using 2 it literally does go something like the Quora answer gives.
Henry George Liddell, Robert Scott, A Greek-English Lexicon, λανθάνω
In light of all that, is it a commentary having something to do about being concerned with what happens *after* one's death?
the aorist infinitive does not express progressive aspect. It presents the action expressed by the verb as a complete unit with a beginning and end.
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To be fair, Hedonists (albeit Cyrenaics, or Epicureans, or others) have always been accused of excess by their philosophical and religious opponents.
And it appears it wasn't even just philosophical opponents. It appears that the "Epicurean" as cook or gourmand was even a familiar trope in New Comedy. There are "contemporary or near-contemporary [to the life of Epicurus] depictions of Epicureans, considering at length the buffoonish chef, a stock character in the New Comedy often depicted as an Epicurean to lambaste sensual pleasure and lack of self-control." Source
Ancient Greek comedy - Wikipediaen.wikipedia.org -
Here's the entry from the Oxford English Dictionary with its historical citations:
Noun
A person devoted to sensual pleasure, esp. to eating and drinking; a hedonist; a glutton. In later use also: a person who cultivates a refined taste for, or takes a particular pleasure in, fine food and drink; an epicure. In early use chiefly depreciative.
a1450 (▸c1435) J. Lydgate Life SS. Edmund & Fremund (Harl.) l. 225 in C. Horstmann Altengl. Legenden (1881) 2nd Ser. 381 (MED) Fals lust..of epicuriens.
a1475 (▸?a1430) J. Lydgate tr. G. Deguileville Pilgrimage Life Man (Vitell.) l. 12786 ‘I wolde se What Epicuriens sholde be.’..‘That perfyt ffelycyte Ys, that a man lyk hys delyt, ffolwe alway hys appetyt.’
a1572 J. Knox Hist. Reformation Scotl. (1587) 188 Simon Preaston..a right Epicurian.
a1652 J. Smith Select Disc. (1660) i. iii. 21 Those poor brutish Epicureans that have nothing but the meer husks of fleshly pleasure to feed themselves with.
1728 S. Whatley tr. J. Lenfant Hist. Council of Constance I. 577 Jerome was such an Epicurean in his Prison, that he spent his whole Time in Drunkenness and Gluttony.
1825 W. Scott Talisman x, in Tales Crusaders III. 250 He was a voluptuary and an epicurean.
1855 J. L. Motley Rise Dutch Republic I. ii. i. 256 A horde of lazy epicureans, telling beads and indulging themselves in luxurious vice.
1935 Washington Post 16 Oct. 5 There are a few real epicureans of the table.
2008 National Jeweler 1 Oct. 18 It [sc. chocolate] has become a bonbon for adults, to be savored by epicureans.
Adjective:
Originally: devoted to the pursuit of pleasure; (hence) hedonistic, gluttonous. Now chiefly: designating a person who takes a particular pleasure in fine food and drink; characteristic of, or suitable for, such a person; gourmet. Cf. epicure n. 2.
1583 W. Chauncie tr. P. Viret Worlde Possessed with Deuils ii. sig. F.vi Their Epicurian life [Fr. leur vie Epicurienne], giuen ouer to al filthinesse and enormitie.
1612 C. Demetrius tr. Most True Relation Earth-quake sig. B2v All at their plenteous and Epicurean voluptuous tables, fall to drinking, swilling, and carowsing deepe healths.
a1616 W. Shakespeare Antony & Cleopatra (1623) ii. i. 24 Epicurean Cookes, Sharpen with cloylesse sawce his Appetite.
1641 J. Milton Of Reformation 84 Warming their Palace Kitchins, and from thence their unctuous, and epicurean paunches.
1656 A. Cowley Misc. 37 in Poems Voluptuous, and Wise with all, Epicuraean Animal!
1750 Student 1 No. 6. 214 I'll be temperate, and stoutly withstand all the allurements of delicious fare, and the seducements of epicurean companions.
1765 Parasite II. xvii. 204 He dined at the Twopence Halfpenny Ordinary in Newgate Street (which we cannot suppose to have been a very Epicurean Meal).
1826 Monitor (Sydney) 15 Dec. 245/3 He who has fed upon corn for six-months, can eat a ‘fat cake’, with a true epicurean relish.
1850 T. Carlyle Latter-day Pamphlets vi. 15 No longer an earnest Nation, but a light, sceptical epicurean one.
1856 H. Penciller Rural Life in Amer. viii. 222 An epicurean fare we lived on, too.
1934 G. Ross Tips on Tables 37 An entree to delight any epicurean soul.
1954 Life 1 Feb. 44/2 Fancy preparing an epicurean feast so fast!
2008 IPA Rev. (Austral.) July 11/2 Slow food is not just an epicurean delight—it is a political and ideological movement.
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Christianity.
It goes back further than that. Dr. Gordon's book documents the idea back to or shortly after Epicurus's own lifetime
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Gotta get in early with the kids before they learn any different, I suppose.
Μήτε νέος...μήτε γέρων...
"Neither must one who is young delay in loving and pursuing wisdom; nor should one who is old grow weary of loving and pursuing wisdom; because it is neither out of season nor untimely for the health of the psykhē."
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https://sites.unimi.it/zucchi/NuoviFile/Warren09.pdf
ARISTOTLE ON SPEUSIPPUS ON EUDOXUS ON PLEASURE
JAMES WARREN
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"once saved, always saved" issues in Christianity
I have my doubts. It didn't seem to take with me.
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you would think that it would be hard to guarantee that every decision is wise.
I've taken that, in part, as once you pull up your empty ideas about death, fate, etc., you won't fall back into error.
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5-Week SASA Reading Group: Atoms and Void: Lucretius' On the Nature of Things | Save Ancient Studies5-Week Text-In-Translation Reading Group Tuesdays at 1 pm Eastern Time Led by Kenneth Connally.www.saveancientstudies.org
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Additional thought on this: The word μακάριος "blessed" is regularly used to describe both the life of the god and the life of a human in Epicurean texts, so those lives have to share some similarities. The big difference, as I see it, is the "incorruptibility" of the gods. The gods don't fall from their completely blissful state... Ever. But this does have a complement in human life. Diogenes Laertius says that "once the sage has become wise, they will no longer fall back into ignorance."
That incorruptible is...
Henry George Liddell, Robert Scott, A Greek-English Lexicon, Α α, , ἀφέψ-ημα , ἄφθαρ-τος
uncorrupted, undecaying
Romans 1.23 includes the word referring to "the glory of the incorruptible God."
I Corinthians 15:52 uses it for "the dead will be raised incorruptible."
I find the description of the sage and the god intriguing. Not identical but complementary? Parallel?
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To bring this back to Twentier 's original question, I wanted to look again at that word translated as "affected"
ὥστε οὔτε ὀργαῖς οὔτε χάρισι συνέχεται:
so that it is not affected by anger or gratitude (Saint-Andre)
ὥστε with the indicative, to express the actual result with emphasis.
συνέχεται (3rd person singular middle/passive indicative < συνέχομαι can mean (as far as I can tell, anyone please correct me!) "afflicted with" but other connotations are impelled or disturbed, constrained by, trapped.
So, if ὥστε introduces a "result" of that which is blessed/incorruptible not causing trouble to itself or others... Wait, that sounds an awful lot like "neither harm nor be harmed." Hmm... Not the same words as PD31, but similar sentiment?
We'll look at συνέχομαι in a second, but I find it interesting that the negation is on the nouns and not the verb: It's not "not affected by" it's "neither anger nor gratitude" affects them (singular them btw).
συνέχομαι is the passive/middle form of συνέχω.
Henry George Liddell, Robert Scott, A Greek-English Lexicon, Σ ς, , συνευτροφέω , συνέχω
So one of the passive connotations is "to be constrained oneself, distressed, afflicted, and, generally, to be affected by anything whether in mind or body." I can see this describing Joshua 's suggested interpretation. It wouldn't preclude the god from being itself angry or grateful (for variation in its pleasure) but it's not affected or constrained by the anger or gratitude of others, including humans. Which could serve as a model for human behavior. Don't be constrained by the anger or gratitude of others but pay attention to your own anger and gratitude. Philodemus talks about natural anger and other kinds of anger. The god could feel natural anger, but isn't affected by the empty anger of others?
Anger and the Desire for RevengeAbstract. This chapter examines Philodemus' diatribe On Anger, a principal piece of On the Passions and an important contribution to the philosophical literaturacademic.oup.com -
For your convenience, a Google scholar search for Adam Krokiewicz
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FYI
Adam Krokiewicz – Wikipedia, wolna encyklopediapl.wikipedia.orgIf someone wants to run that through Google translate
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From the Hermarchus book.
The "breathing" seems to be reconstructed from:
επισπωμ(......)ευ(.)α
I'd have to see the digitized manuscript to accept πνεύμα from that fragmentary text.
Henry George Liddell, Robert Scott, A Greek-English Lexicon, πνεῦμα
That "breath, air, wind, spirit" could have multiple interpretations.
Even επισπωμ(ενους) seems to be related to aorist middle participle of ἐφέπω (ephépō); Mid. to follow, pursue.
The transliterated προιεμενους appears related to προΐημι which *can* mean "utter sounds" but that is a long way from conversation.
Henry George Liddell, Robert Scott, A Greek-English Lexicon, προΐημι
PS
Here is the rest of fragment 39...
I got called away yesterday and didn't have a chance to follow-up on this post. Just realized this morning that #39 had more to it! I'm going to work on done translation because this is going to change my perspective, I'm betting
PPS. Here's the papyri.info entry for Philodemus's On the Gods
DCLP/Trismegistos 62386 = LDAB 3551
Makes it a little easier to copy and paste text and gives a better idea of the condition of the papyri itself.
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Twentier : Came across this compilation of Hermarchus's fragments. However, it's in German, Greek, and Latin, but it's a start:
Der Epikureer Hermarchos [microform] : Krohn, Karl, 1895- : Free Download, Borrow, and Streaming : Internet ArchiveGreek texts with commentary in German and notes in Latinarchive.org -
1. Do not trouble about the gods, for the gods do not trouble about you.
I'm beginning to like @Joshua's interpretation. It also seems to correspond to the Letter of Menoikeus section:
Quote from Letter to MenoikeusSo, they (i.e, the hoi polloi, "the many") believe the greatest evils are brought to the wicked from the gods as well as the greatest aid to the good, because the hoi polloi are believing that the gods accept those who resemble themselves who are similar through all excellences and goodness; all those not of their sort are strange and alien.
But this idea that the gods bestow evils and aid is a mistaken idea about the gods, according to Epicurus. The gods are not swayed by prayer or sacrifice or ...gratitude to them.
PD01: Broken up:
Τὸ μακάριον καὶ ἄφθαρτον οὔτε αὐτὸ πράγματα ἔχει οὔτε ἄλλῳ παρέχει,
(singular) That which is blissful and immortal has no troubles itself, nor does it cause trouble for others,
ὥστε οὔτε ὀργαῖς οὔτε χάρισι συνέχεται:
so that it is not affected by anger or gratitude (Saint-Andre)
ὥστε with the indicative, to express the actual result with emphasis.
συνέχεται (3rd person singular middle/passive indicative < συνέχομαι can mean (as far as I can tell, anyone please correct me!) "afflicted with" but other connotations are impelled or disturbed, constrained by, trapped.
So, if ὥστε introduces a "result" of that which is blessed/incorruptible not causing trouble to itself or others... Wait, that sounds an awful lot like "neither harm nor be harmed." Hmm... Not the same words as PD31, but similar sentiment?
ἐν ἀσθενεῖ γὰρ πᾶν τὸ τοιοῦτον.
for all such things come about through weakness
More food for thought...
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TauPhi : You bring up some interesting points. I had a few thoughts as I was reading your post.
Epicurean gods can be viewed as immortal only when seen as collective of infinite number of blessed beings. On individual level they must be creatures that reached the state of blessedness but they are alive, created from compounds of atoms and therefore mortal and destructible.
This section I found intriguing. The idea of an individual god vs the gods as a collective made me thing of the scholia attached to PD01.
PD01. A blessed and eternal being has no trouble himself and brings no trouble upon any other being ; hence he is exempt from movements of anger and partiality, for every such movement implies weakness [Elsewhere he says that the gods are discernible by reason alone, some being numerically distinct, while others result uniformly from the continuous influx of similar images directed to the same spot and in human form.]
Scholia ("ancient commentary") section: [ἐν ἄλλοις δέ φησι τοὺς θεοὺς λόγῳ θεωρητούς, οὓς μὲν κατ᾽ ἀριθμὸν ὑφεστῶτας, οὓς δὲ καθ᾽ ὁμοείδειαν ἐκ τῆς συνεχοῦς ἐπιρρύσεως τῶν ὁμοίων εἰδώλων ἐπὶ τὸ αὐτὸ ἀποτετελεσμένωι ἀνθρωποειδῶς.]
Honestly, the "numerically distinct" and images and the rest have always befuddled me. Breaking it down, the "discernable through reason alone" here is a translation of simply λόγῳ θεωρητούς "'discernable' by/through reason, thinking, " (dative of λόγος). I don't see evidence of the word alone, but I suppose it's implied. LSJ includes the following in their definition: λόγῳ θεωρητά mentally conceived, opp. sensibly perceived. So, per that definition of that phrase, we can say that The gods are (only) mentally conceived, not sensibly perceived. Does that mean they can *never* be sensibly perceived, i.e., perceived by the physical senses and so not actually corporeal? Then the scholia talks about "others" as in "other gods"? Are there several different kinds of gods? Some can only be mentally conceived, and others are produced by continuous "similar images" *directed to* the same spot? Those images are the familiar εἰδώλων (eidolon), the films/simulacra/images being shed by bodies. The gods are an odd lot!
Oh, I didn't set out to resolve anything... just throwing more grist in the mill
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I should hate to be guilty of Norman DeWitt's unforgivable sin--amending the text!
I don't think you're amending the text at all. That's an interesting interpretation. I'll have to dig into the Greek but you may be onto something!