Posts by Don

Quote from Pacatus

(But I still think my pulley metaphor was pretty good … )

Agreed!

That's a *great* post 16, Cassius !! Well said!

My 15 post was very much an experiment in stream of consciousness writing with a little editing after the fact. I'm okay with it for what it is.

I completely agree that "pleasure" is the North Star of Epicurus's philosophy. He defined it in *all-encompassing* terms precisely because he made it the guide of life. However...

I continue to read the texts as saying Epicurus and the ancient Epicureans taught the distinction of katastematic and "kinetic" pleasure as a practical expression of that all-encompassing nature, and that we can be more confident of always having access to katastematic pleasure than kinetic pleasures. However...

The recent in-depth discussions of "absence of pain = pleasure" have given me a new perspective on the katastematic/kinetic "debate." The health of the body and the tranquillity of the mind *is* katastematic pleasure. The "normal" functioning of freedom from pain in body and mind that has been discussed *is* katastematic pleasure. "Absence of pain" in the mind is literally ataraxia which Epicurus gives as an example of *a* katastematic pleasure. No matter what else is going on in our lives, we always have access to that health of the body and tranquility of the mind IF we allow it to happen, IF we have banished those fears, anxieties, worries that Epicurus taught stand in the way of experiencing *pleasure** in its all-encompassing joyful, delightful, calm, exciting, tranquil variations.

I need to note that I personally think "alpha and omega" or "a to z" is a bad translation of ἀρχὴν καὶ τέλος (arkhē kai telos). That "alpha and omega" phrase carries way too much Biblical baggage to be useful.

That's why I translate it as "the foundation and fulfillment" (of the blessed life).

Quote from Eoghan Gardiner

"Epicurean Philosophy teaches that absence of pain is pleasure"
"Ok, but isn't the goal of Epicureanism ataraxia and not pleasure? Also isn't the absence of pain just a tranquil state?"
How would you respond to someone like this?

The goal, the fulfillment, of a life of well-being consists of both the health of the body and the tranquility of the mind. The absence of pain in the body and of disturbance in the mind IS pleasure, because there are only two feelings we can experience: pleasure and pain. Being alive is to experience sensations, to FEEL things. At the most basic level, we either feel positive nurturing feelings, which we call pleasure; or negative harmful feelings, which we call pain. Within pleasure and pain, there are numerous shades and intensities of feeling; from ecstasy to serenity, from annoyance to agony.

But when we rid ourselves of the gnawing anxiety and the dreadful worry about death, divine retribution, and the like, we can have a tranquil mind, we can have "ataraxia." If we have tranquility of mind, we can FEEL our other positive feelings more clearly, untainted by the nagging worry that it'll all fade away. Once we rid ourselves of those fears and worries, when they are uprooted and torn from the ground of our mind, they can't grow back. We can then make better choices. We can pluck the ripe fruit of each moment and REALLY savor it. That is the goal of Epicureanism. If you say a tranquil mind - ataraxia - is the only goal and don't include the health of the body, you stop short of the fulfilling life that Epicurus offers. Yes, you NEED a tranquil mind free from anxiety and worry... but you also need a healthy body attached to that tranquil mind. The mind works through the body, and the body provides the mind with its seat. We are both a mind and a body, together, inseparable. Pleasure is the path but also the fulfillment of prudent choices and rejections. Tranquility - ataraxia - makes the sea calm for sailing. When other pleasures are encountered, they are welcomed but not greedily grasped. You are already at the fullness of pleasure! The horizon beckons with a variety of pleasures to experience. Sail off. You are already filled with pleasure, secure in your own self-reliance, your mind is strong and unassailable by worry, anxiety, fears, and dread. You've drank the wormwood through the honeyed rim. The medicine is sweet. The physician was correct. This is the way to live!

Quote from Pacatus

Don:

And "the beginning and the end" has a taint of "the alpha and omega" from Revelation.

Just don't take that analogy *too* far. You could just as easily use "the A and Z" which is what it literally is: the first and last letter of the alphabet. I see Hicks use of "alpha and omega" in his translation as simply referring to the foundation (the A, the alpha) and fulfillment (the Z, the omega).

Eikadistes : I'm trying out the older Epicurus as a profile pic, but if you'd rather not have that done, I'm happy to switch back to the 20er moon. Just say the word.

Quote from Kalosyni

Is this a reference to beginning and the end... does this mirror 'alpha and omega' in letter to Menoeceus?

That's an interesting idea. I don't think so, but I'm going to have to think about that some more to be convinced one way or the other.

For ease of reference, here's my commentary on that section of the letter:

Quote

A short digression is now in order to examine that phrase ἀρχὴν καὶ τέλος "the foundation and fulfillment, the beginning and end." Often, this is simply translated as "the beginning and the end" as if there's a starting line and a finish line. This is much deeper than that, although the running of a race could be one metaphor that could used. Let's first look at the word ἀρχὴν (accusative of ἀρχή).

• ἀρχή (arkhē)
  • English archeology "study of beginnings/origins" but also the -archy in monarchy, patriarchy, etc.

ᾰ̓ρχή carries the meaning of beginning, origin, foundation, the farthest point. It even took on the meaning of "the corners of a sheet" by the time the New Testament was being written (Acts 10:11). It also had the connotation of the "beginning of power" residing in a ruler, the "most important person" in a kingdom. It carries the idea of a foundational element or first principle. The alpha (first letter of the Greek alphabet) to τέλος's omega (the last letter of the Greek alphabet) which is how Hicks translated them.

τέλος (telos) carries the meaning of endings, the goal, completion, maturity, result, fulfillment, consummation. Where αρχή is the foundation, τέλος is the highest point. The definition of τέλος in LSJ is extensive! 

Αρχή is not quite as long but gives the nuance we're working with.

Therefore, to translate ἀρχὴν καὶ τέλος as "beginning and end" (every other translation I've seen except Hicks) misses a lot of deeper meaning. This phrase is one that I highly recommend giving more attention to in one's personal translation or at least being aware of when reading. We miss so much by not examining Epicurus's words. Always go back to the texts!

Quote from Cassius

In our meeting tonight Pacatus mentioned that the Greek might be chronos which might indicate a longer length of time than a moment? That's my paraphrase and I may have it wrong.

Ὁ αὐτὸς χρόνος (ho autos khronos) is a set phrase meaning "at the same time, simultaneously; literally, 'the time (is) the same', as in the events are happening at the same time."

I would get something like...

(At) the same time, there is both a generation/creation and a releasing/letting go of the greatest good.

Quote from Cassius

enjoyment.

Aye, there's the rub.

It ALL depends on one letter.

Do you accept what the manuscript has: απολύσεως? Releasing, letting go

Or do you accept the "correction" by modern scholars: απολαύσεως? enjoyment

Quote from Bryan

Also relevant is Vatican Saying 42, recently shared by Onenski.

Ὁ αὐτὸς χρόνος καὶ γενέσεως τοῦ μεγίστου ἀγαθοῦ καὶ ἀπολύσεως <τοῦ κακοῦ>.

The same moment has both the origin of the greatest good and the release from evil.

Problem is there's no "from evil" in the manuscript.

Quote from Godfrey

Joshua , it brings me great pleasure to see that you so firmly share my distaste for Cicero.

Ditto!

By Zeus!! What a fantastic episode! Joshua , you were on fire with the Gellius find and the other references you've shared.

Welcome aboard! Or should I say "Welcome to the rabbit hole!"

Quote from Cassius

Does this means that the notes are not translated into English in the text?

It appears not. Transcribed but not translated.

Quote from Kalosyni

"wise man sayings" (from Diogenes Laertius' Lives of Eminent Philosophers Book 10) and maybe add in some of the PDs (this could take some thinking and some work to decide what to include, and also if it should be called "The Sayings of the Wise" rather than "The Wise Man Sayings").

These ones?! (for ease of reference)

Welcome aboard!!

Quote from Cassius

Charlton Griffin reading of Rolfe Humphries' edition of Lucretius.

Some examples and excerpts:

Lucretius - De Rerum Natura - On the Nature of Love (Rolfe Humphries translation)

Stream Lucretius - De Rerum Natura - On the Nature of Love (Rolfe Humphries translation) by Philosophy Monkey on desktop and mobile. Play over 320 million…

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Also has John Dryden translation with Griffin:

Lucretius - De Rerum Natura - On the Nature of Love

Your re-recorded closing was a nice summary.