Posts by Don

Speaking of mockery in this episode reminded me that Epicurus was not above that as well, according to Diogenes Laertius:

Quote from Diogenes Laertius

he himself in his letters says of Nausiphanes : "This so maddened him that he abused me and called me pedagogue." [8] Epicurus used to call this Nausiphanes jelly-fish,13 an illiterate, a fraud, and a trollop ; Plato's school he called "the toadies of Dionysius," their master himself the "golden" Plato,14 and Aristotle a profligate, who after devouring his patrimony took to soldiering and selling drugs ; Protagoras a pack-carrier and the scribe of Democritus and village schoolmaster ; Heraclitus a muddler15 ; Democritus Lerocritus (the nonsense-monger) ; and Antidorus Sannidorus (fawning gift-bearer) ; the Cynics foes of Greece ; the Dialecticians despoilers ; and Pyrrho an ignorant boor.

Quote from Pacatus

Epicurus pushed the edges of such circumscription within the Garden (it seems to me)

Fully agree! Letting women and slaves study philosophy??!! Clutch my pearls!

However, marriages still needed to be sanctioned by the state and the culture to be legal and to allow for inheritance and the other legal and social aspects to be legitimate.

Quote

Sexual Relationships
The wise one will not establish a sexual relationship in a way that is against the law or forbidden by custom. Epicureans generally think that the sage will never succumb to lustful desire or be overwhelmed by sexual passions. According to the school, sexual passion is not sent by any supernatural force. They say that having sex like animals never did anyone any good, and people should be content if it does no harm. Epicurus also said that the wise one will not marry nor raise a family (and talked about the pains involved with that life); however, under certain circumstances, the wise one will forsake these rules and decide to marry. (118, 119)

I'll have to look those articles up!! Thanks for the references.

One thing to remember in this discussion was that, Epicurean or not, women's lives were circumscribed within the general Greek culture. Look at his Will and talking about the daughter of Metrodorus:

Let them likewise provide for the maintenance of Metrodorus's daughter,32 so long as she is well-ordered and obedient to Hermarchus; and, when she comes of age, give her in marriage to a husband selected by Hermarchus from among the members of the School ; and out of the revenues accruing to me let Amynomachus and Timocrates in consultation with Hermarchus give to them as much as they think proper for their maintenance year by year.

That said, I don't get the impression that Epicurus was forbidding marriages but I can see men (and women! in the Garden) asking his counsel and advice on who they were thinking of marrying.

Source:

Moral letters to Lucilius/Letter 25 - Wikisource, the free online library

This is also the letter that has SIC FAC OMNIA TAMQUAM SPECTET EPICURUS:

Quote from Seneca

4. But do you yourself, as indeed you are doing, show me that you are stout-hearted; lighten your baggage for the march. None of our possessions is essential. Let us return to the law of nature; for then riches are laid up for us. The things which we actually need are free for all, or else cheap; nature craves only bread and water. No one is poor according to this standard; when a man has limited his desires within these bounds, he can challenge the happiness of Jove himself, as Epicurus says. I must insert in this letter one or two more of his sayings:[2] 5. "Do everything as if Epicurus were watching you." There is no real doubt that it is good for one to have appointed a guardian over oneself, and to have someone whom you may look up to, someone whom you may regard as a witness of your thoughts. It is, indeed, nobler by far to live as you would live under the eyes of some good man, always at your side; but nevertheless I am content if you only act, in whatever you do, as you would act if anyone at all were looking on; because solitude prompts us to all kinds of evil.

The Meaning of Life, according to Monty Python:

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"M-hmm. Well, it's nothing very special. Uh, try and be nice to people, avoid eating fat, read a good book every now and then, get some walking in, and try and live together in peace and harmony with people of all creeds and nations."

Ah!!! Like a Universally-applicable morality. Thanks for the clarification.

I couldn't get Universalism in the Christian theology sense out of my head.

Quote from DavidN

universalism

Mea culpa. I apologize for my ignorance. Could you define "universalism" here?

Quote from Bryan

"value for a person does not depend on sentience or existence" or "facts thus might be good or bad even for those who are dead and no longer exist" I feel these statements are too absurd to need a counterargument..

WTF?! "does not depend on sentience or existence."??? So, by that we can talk about the "value for" fictional, non-existent characters in books or mythology?? Absurd is one word I'd use for that position!

Serendipitous discovery this morning:

https://www.npr.org/2024/01/24/1226371734/religious-nones-are-now-the-largest-single-group-in-the-u-s

Quote from Cassius

Quote from Don

'I know this and want this and think this.'"
'τοῦτ' οιδα καὶ τοῦτο βούλομαι καὶ τοῦτ' οἴ

Don is that what you are referring to in English and Greek? Agreed that is very interesting.

Yes

This is of great benefit! Thanks for your work! I especially like:

"this is what I believe to be the work of prudence, to dispel the vain turmoil caused by dreams and signs."

"simply to remove those things which disturb without reason, which cannot be done without having examined and known that the things causing the disturbance are false"

"Always, but only to care for health; for if one is healthy, they will not be troubled by any of those things which now cause them distress. 'For indeed,' you will say, 'I know this and want this and think this.'"
'τοῦτ' οιδα καὶ τοῦτο βούλομαι καὶ τοῦτ' οἴ'

(That last line is almost as good a motto or slogan or aphorism as the Tetrapharmakos in my opinion)

"Only through correctly engaging in the study of nature about all these matters is it possible to grasp the truth. "

τὸν ἐλεύθερον βίον "a free life" ton eleutheron bion - I like that description of the Epicurean path!

And I'm only up to page 19! You've given me something to dig into! Thanks for the work and the inspiration!!

To add to DavidN 's post (not that I'm advocating one direction or another, just providing references):

"Churches" Defined | Internal Revenue Service

www.irs.gov

Religious Nonprofit Organizations and Churches

Understanding differences between the terms “churches” and “religious organizations” is important for religious groups seeking 501(c) (3) tax-exempt status.

www.score.org

So, 501(c)(3) is the broad category of tax-exempt charitable organizations. And it's relativly easy to start your own tax -exempt "church", as John Oliver demonstrated:

It's Surprisingly Easy To Start Your Own Church

If you're hoping to start your own IRS-approved religious organization, look no further than the guidelines below.

www.huffpost.com

John Oliver Exposes Televangelism, Then Forms His Own Tax-Exempt Church

Call 1-800-THIS-IS-LEGAL for a special message from a "megareverend."

www.huffpost.com

Note: I want to add that I understand that Nate and others (and myself in some ways) are not using "religion" in relation to Epicureanism in a satirical or flippant way like the Church of the Flying Spaghetti Monster or John Oliver's "church." I respect the "taking back the word idea" but these links show how broad and ill -defined the word is from a legal and secular perspective.

Quote from Nate

- Anderson: "We should welcome praise from others if it comes unsought, but we should also be engaged in improving ourselves."

Thanks for sharing those!! I like Anderson a lot (for the most part). I'd switch "accept" for "welcome." And I do like "improving ourselves" better than "healing."

I attended tonights Wednesday night VS Study Group and the VS under discussion was 64... with varying translations! It was great. Then I realized we didn't have the source text from the manuscript. So... here we are.

Saint-Andre gives the Greek as:

ἀκολουθεῖν δεῖ τὸν παρὰ τῶν ἄλλων ἔπαινον αὐτόματον, ἡμᾶς δὲ γενέσθαι περὶ τὴν ἡμῶν ἰατρείαν.

Which looks correct to me from the manuscript.

He gives the translation of: The esteem of others is outside our control; we must attend instead to healing ourselves.

Bailey gives: Praise from others must come unasked: we must concern ourselves with the healing of our own lives.

Epicurus Wiki gives: The [praise] by others [ought to follow] automatically while [we] (ought) to concern ourselves with own (own) healing.

I would paraphrase this as: One must accept the spontaneous praise from others; but we are the ones who heal ourselves. Which means to me that we should accept praise or approval from others if it is automatic. We shouldn't trust the flatterer, but if someone spontaneously tells us we did a nice thing, take the compliment! But we need not rely on that. We know ourselves better than anyone else. If we give ourselves praise, then we know we truly deserve it!

Want to see the sausage making process? Let's break this down word by word (relying somewhat on the good ol' Wiktionary)

δεῖ = It is necessary to... One must...

ἀκολουθεῖν = to follow one in a thing, let oneself be led by [+dative or rarely accusative = someone or something] ... LSJ also has metaphorically, follow, be guided by;

So, what's the accusative or dative someone or something?

τὸν παρὰ τῶν ἄλλων ἔπαινον αὐτόματον = (accusative) This has an embedded phrase...

παρὰ τῶν ἄλλων = παρα is governed by the genitive, accusative, and dative and has different meanings with each! τῶν ἄλλων is genitive, so the genitive implies "from" or "because of" LSJ gives: "WITH GEN. prop. denoting motion from the side of, from beside, from" So, παρὰ τῶν ἄλλων would be, it appears, something "from others"

ἔπαινον = acc.sing. of "approval, praise" or "an expression of praise; a speech praising someone."

αὐτόματον = unbidden, spontaneous, "without external cause."

So, ἀκολουθεῖν δεῖ τὸν παρὰ τῶν ἄλλων ἔπαινον αὐτόματον = It is necessary (It behooves one) to follow the spontaneous praise of others; ...

ἡμᾶς δὲ γενέσθαι περὶ τὴν ἡμῶν ἰατρείαν. = but we produce/bring into being the ἰατρείαν for ourselves.

ἰατρείαν = medical treatment; curing, correcting (brings in that whole medical analogy that Epicurus uses in other locations!)

Quote from Nate

We have historical evidence of doctrinal disputes between geographically isolated Gardens, and those disputes seem to be resolved by the Athenian Scholarch,

Do you have the references for that? I'd be curious to follow-up one those!

I've seen bumper stickers like "Kindness is my religion" and that sort of thing, too.

Eikadistes : I think the title sounds cool and I was unaware of the Apostolicon and the other history, but my pop culture mind went straight to Necronomicon when I saw your title the first time

That Wikipedia entry offers a better translation of superstitiō is "religiosity" as opposed to "superstition." Keeping this in mind helps.

And translation of religio is "religious scruple" instead of just "religion."

Those Latin spellings can imply meanings of English words that are not actually present, regardless of the similar spelling.

PS. On further thought, "superstition" could be an acceptable translation of religio since religio is concerned with the outward performance of the correct rituals in hope of a favorable benefit from the gods. It's akin to someone now carrying a rabbits foot for good luck or crossing your fingers or knocking on wood, etc.

Quote from Cassius

The "super" is probably very clear - I wonder what the "stitio" refers to?

It's from superstō + -tiō < super + stō

"To stand upon or over"

Quote from Nate

Where does that leave the word "Superstitio" in relation to "Pietas" and "Religio"?

And, as a further point, why did Lucretius not use "Superstitio"?

This helps...

Glossary of ancient Roman religion - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

superstitio
Superstitio was excessive devotion and enthusiasm in religious observance, in the sense of "doing or believing more than was necessary", or "irregular" religious practice that conflicted with Roman custom. ...Before the Christian era, superstitio was seen as a vice of individuals.

Lucretius' opposition to religio in favor of pietas conveys to me possibly the difference between outward "proper" performance of rituals expected of one versus the inward reason for performing those rites and rituals. Epicurus took part in the rites, festivals, and rituals of his city BUT with the proper inward piety.