Posts by Don

I'm some ways, Epicurus's position on choice and free will and determinism is δογματικός (dogmatikos), not being afraid to declare a position.

In light of Sapolsky and Dennett and the rest, a big part of me wants more than to simply declare a position. That's why Mitchell is intriguing to me. I'm planning on exploring his stuff before weighing back in (too much, that is).

I continue to find pleasure in this discussion and appreciate everyone's willingness to share their views. In light of that, let me share some of my own thoughts on this:

The word Metaphysical

Several of you have used this word, and I will admit I find it ill-defined. To me, the word smacks of "woo" as in "mystical, supernatural, or unscientific." Merriam-Webster has one definition that tells me "a division of philosophy that is concerned with the fundamental nature of reality and being and that includes ontology, cosmology, and often epistemology." If I remember correctly, Aristotle used it in his works to simply refer to the topics that weren't Physics... Oh, I don't remember correctly. It dates to 70 BCE and ordering of books covering "the science of what is beyond the physical." In any case, I find it unhelpful when it can be so vague and can be imbued with hazy meanings.

Quote from Bryan

I experience having free will and I am not sympathetic to arguments that are counter to repeated experience. It is not a matter of logic but simple immediate proof.

Quote from Godfrey

determinism is counter to lived experience.

I know where you're coming from, but we also experience the oar as being bent when we see it in the water. IF we investigate further, we do find the oar isn't bent (or the tower isn't round to use the classical example). So, I don't see anything inherently incorrect about examining free will and digging deeper more additional experience and investigation. And, yes, I agree that we have "repeated experience" of free will, but we also experience the oar as bent and the tower as round repeatedly and have to catch ourselves to remember other past repeated experiences. The "feeling" of free will is one sensation that could be backed up - or some say refuted - by examining it from other perspectives and experiences. I'm still inclined to free will, but these recent books and this discussion are helpful in making me defend my experience and making me question *why* I might maintain that free will exists.

Quote from Onenski

Some philosophers (like Saul Smilansky), however, have concluded that effectively free will skepticism leads to immoral behavior or meaningless lives. In their opinion, we should maintain free will illusion.

This seems to be similar to Dennet's compatibilism: the free will "illusion" has practical benefit so we should continue to live "as if" "free will" is a real thing... even though they don't believe there is such as a thing. Additionally, I find the whole "absence of free will" (just another way, to my thinking, as saying "there is no god") leading to immoral behavior or meaningless lives a fallacy. Which fallacy, I couldn't say (sorry.. .that's an area of study I need to explore!) Dennett tells a similar fable of the "nefarious neurosurgeon" to illustrate the point. I see the point of the story, but it smacks of the "people can't be good without God" argument.

Quote from Onenski

For them, we can't feel resentment when someone hurts us, or gratitude when someone benefits us.

Sapolsky goes down that road, too, but admits he can't maintain it for more than (something like, in his words) 30 seconds at a time every few months. We naturally feel resentment and gratitude naturally arises unbidden (for the "average" human). Other non-human primates appear to express "gratitude," they groom each other, they appear to comfort each other. Emotions, to me, appear to be on a spectrum from rudimentary in less complex animals to chimpanzees, bonobos, and humans. Even if there is "no free will" and actions are determined, nature/evolution has endowed life with the capacity to feel there is and to express and feel emotions.

Quote from Onenski

Finally, how do an epicurean find eudaimonia?: recognizing his place in the universe, studying nature, moderating desires, looking for pleasures, avoiding pain/suffering, feeling satisfied, enjoying time with friends. Is that contradictory with free will skepticism?

I would fully agree that that's how an epicurean finds eudaimonia "well-being." Trying to answer the second part is harder for me. As I understand "free will skepticism" isn't necessarily "determinism" per se. One source simply says "“Free will skepticism” refers to a family of views that all take seriously the possibility that human beings lack the control in action – i.e. the free will – required for an agent to be truly deserving of blame and praise, punishment and reward. " If that's the case, I would say "free will skepticism" (which implies to me "hard determinism") would be incompatible with Epicurean philosophy. At the root of Epicurean philosophy is that humans have the agency to choose the direction they take their life - to make "choices and rejections" - and praise and blame can be affixed to the choices people take. I see Epicurean philosophy as a philosophy of personal responsibility - we are responsible for the choices we take. Free will skepticism is the exact opposite of that.

That said, the things that Onenski lists (recognizing his place in the universe, studying nature, moderating desires, looking for pleasures, avoiding pain/suffering, feeling satisfied, enjoying time with friends) are all aspects of an Epicurean eudaimonic life. The questions are: How are those things pursued? Why do we pursue those things? Do we make choices to pursue avenues that will lead to this kind of life? Or are we, as Sapolsky and the free will skeptics say, simply the kind of person that would "choose" these things based soley on our genetics, environment, childhood, pre-wired neural activity, etc., and that we cannot in any way be credited with pursuing "good" decisions anymore than we can be blamed for "bad" decisions? There is no personal responsibility for the free will skeptic. If you're leading a eudaimonic life, that's just the life you *had* to lead. If you've done things that hurt others, you have no real responsibilty for those actions, but we need to sequester you from the rest of society for other people to get on with their pre-determined lives.

I'm going to have to explore Mitchell more, and this whole topic. But I don't think these are necessarily "metaphysical" questions. I think we can explore, study, scan, etc., etc., and at some point come up with answers. Maybe we don't have "free will" - we certainly have constrained choices! I "freely" admit that. But I don't think we can state definitely - a la Sapolsky and others - that we've determined there is no free will.. at least at this point in time.

Remember... Happiness = ευδαιμονία (eudaimonia) in Epicurus. Eidaimonia does not carry the same semantic connotations that "happiness" does in English. I truly dislike that translation

What Latin word does Cicero use?

Quote from Cassius

the swerve of the atom giving rise to "choice"

I'll have to read your Sedley and Long papers again, but I don't see how the "swerve" - by definition a random event if I understand - can lead to a macro level volitional "choice" exercised by an free agent on the individual level.

I'm reading Mitchell's blog.

Undetermined - a response to Robert Sapolsky. Part 1 - a tale of two neuroscientists

Free will is in the air. Among neuroscientists at least, the question of whether we are in control of our actions has been attracting renewe...

www.wiringthebrain.com

I was originally attracted to Dennett's compatibilism stance, because I wanted to keep my free will but was enamored of the scientific (read: deterministic) arguments. However, that stance seems less tenable now to me. It's still a deterministic wolf in free will clothes.

Mitchell, on the other hand, seems just as hard-nosed scientifically as Sapolsky and Dennett but appears at first blush to provide a mechanism for free will, or more accurately maybe free agency. That line, which I am still very much exploring, seems more "compatible" with Epicurus' position.

Quote from Cassius

Quote from Don

I've prattled on long enough for now... Satisfied, Cassius

Yes, very satisfied, thank you!

I do hope my good-natured invocation of your name in my post came across that way Thanks for the nudge!

I've been looking around about Kevin J Mitchell and found this review of his book with links to blog posts of his reacting to Sapolsky:

Book review – Free Agents: How Evolution Gave Us Free Will

A tightly argued and compelling case in favour of free will, Free Agents provides thought-provoking ideas that are relevant far beyond this debate.

inquisitivebiologist.com

Mitchell's position seems very interesting and possibly fruitful. Nothing more from me at the moment, but posting here to share.

I noticed waay back on post #34, Cassius called me out for re-initiating this thread and then stepping back, grabbing popcorn, and watching it all unfold. In deference to him, I feel I should weigh in BUT I have greatly enjoyed the erudite and in-depth discussion taking place!! You all have *obviously* given this topic a great deal of thought. And I *fully* concur and applaud Cassius's "administrative note" to keep everything in context. My nudge just.. yesterday?...way back on post @20 has generated...I'd even say "caused" ... some wonderful and thought-provoking posts and far exceeded what I had anticipated. Thank you all!

And, thank you to Kalosyni for posting the info about Kevin J. Mitchell. I was completely unaware of him, but I'll have to put his book Free Agents on my list now!

I'm afraid my contribution is going to be woefully inadequate to this conversation, but I'll lay my cards on the table...first general, then specifically Epicurean...

There is nothing that doesn't have a cause. There is no uncaused caused or an effect that comes into being sui generis with no antecedent cause. That just seems simple physical reality to me. However, everything has numerous - if not infinite - causes. All those lines of causation collide and contribute to any physical, material phenomenon... from the toppling of a particular tree in a particular forest to the decisions I make. I like the words used earlier (by Pacatus ?) that the "choices" (and I'll use "scare quotes" for now) we make are constrained choices. Theoretically, I have an infinite or at least innumerable options to choose from at any given moment. As I write this, I could decide:

• just to randomly punch the keys and produce gibberish
• or to stop typing and to not hit send
• or to throw my laptop across the room
• or to attempt to chew the corner off my screen or...

but I feel I am a rational being with something to relate to my Epicurean friends on the forum, and so I continue to type and relay my thoughts. My choices are, in practice, not infinite or innumerable but constrained to a finite selection of realistic choices I could be predicted to take. Does that make them "determined"? Can they be predicted? Maybe, within a statistical margin of error...but does that mean they're determined? I guess it depends on your definition of "determined."

I feel there was discussion on the difference between deterministic and fatalistic. I think that remains significant. Even Sapolsky allows for change...although I admit I'm not sure I followed his argument. Change seems to go against his other parts of his argument. If by determined, we mean causes with effects, that's true to some extent. If by fated, we mean the outcome could have been no other than it was... that one I have problems with... but I can't necessarily articulate (at this point) why.

Take the view from the other end of my choices or the effects... looking back over my own life and those of my relatives and ancestors, I can see the effects of individual choices on the future lives of myself and those others. But those past decisions, even now, don't feel determined. Some feel random. But others feel like there was a "decision" that was weighed and made. Again, causes leading to effects becoming causes of future events leading to... you get the idea.

So... that all didn't get us anywhere... "Thanks, Don."

But I also promised some Epicurean thoughts...

We've seen Epicurus's message to Menoikeus: "Remember that what will be is not completely within our control nor completely outside our control, so that we will not completely expect it to happen nor be completely disappointed if it does not happen." (127, Saint-Andre) This, to me, recognizes the element of indeterminacy of our lives. Somethings are going to happen to us that we have no control over; and somethings will not happen for us regardless of whether want it or not.

We also read in verses 134-135 about Fate not being a god because Fate does things haphazardly and randomly. Epicurus also clearly states that we can assign praise and blame to people's actions, directly opposite of the direction Sapolsky wants to go. BUT Sapolsky and Epicurus both agree that bad actors - people who do things against the social contract - need to be removed from society for the good of the other members of society. Sapolsky just thinks there shouldn't be blame assigned to the actions.

The character of Torquatus in On Ends also has a pertinent quote (emphasis added): "In a free hour, when our power of choice is untrammelled and when nothing prevents our being able to do what we like best, every pleasure is to be welcomed and every pain avoided. But in certain emergencies and owing to the claims of duty or the obligations of business it will frequently occur that pleasures have to be repudiated and annoyances accepted. The wise man therefore always holds in these matters to this principle of selection: he rejects pleasures to secure other greater pleasures, or else he endures (i.e., chooses) pains to avoid worse pains." The Epicurean position is clearly that we are not constrained in our ability to make choices... but it seems to me that those choices are predicated on the character of the individual, the taking into account the future effects of those choices which will, in turn, be the *causes* of those future pleasures or pains. The choices we make are *still* constrained by taking into account what we desire weighed against the future states those choices will engender.

I've prattled on long enough for now... Satisfied, Cassius

Quote from Cassius

Quote from Don

Kalosyni I have not read Harris's book. On my list but not yet.

Hey Don - You started this latest iteration of the Determinism saga and then you never weighed in yourself!!!

Sorry. Things came up. It's turned into a little of "Let the games begin!" It's on my agenda for this evening.

Kalosyni I have not read Harris's book. On my list but not yet.

Here's a debate between Dennett and Sapolsky. Skimmed thru but applicable.

I'm going to resurrect this thread since I think there are some good, thought-provoking points, and it mentions Sapolsky who recently came out with an even more provocative book than Behave:

Determined
A SCIENCE OF LIFE WITHOUT FREE WILL

Determined by Robert M. Sapolsky: 9780525560975 | PenguinRandomHouse.com: Books

The instant New York Times bestseller “Excellent…Outstanding for its breadth of research, the liveliness of the writing, and the depth of humanity it…

www.penguinrandomhouse.com

There's also a recent Clear and Vivid episode:

Robert Sapolsky: You Have No Choice - Clear+Vivid with Alan Alda

Learn to connect better with others in every area of your life. Immerse yourself in spirited conversations with people who know how hard it is, and yet how…

pca.st

The points earlier in the thread of determinism vs fatalism are very pertinent to this discussion. So, here we go again.... Discuss.... More later from me.

If they could proide Greek transcripts, run them through Google Translate at least.

Right. We have access to digitized papyri and other resources, but they're not all going to be translated (unfortunately).

BUT we can still verify scholars' readings and, with the help of people like Bryan and Eikadistes , get translations literally right from the source. This is another incentive for *everyone* having at least a rudimentary understanding of the ancient Greek, at least the alphabet (and paleography... And grammar... And... And... And ).

That second question is a good one, and would have to be answered on a case by case basis. Hopefully, books and papers and websites cite what translation they're using or if it's original.

LOL. None of this is easy. And taking translations at face value and without question is fraught with pitfalls!

Quote from Titus

The idea of fulfilling natural and necessary needs while sitting in a cave by drinking water and eating bread is a state of idealized sanctification. While it focuses on the relatively low hardware requirements concerning human material needs, it ignores all the other variables to our lives in our ever-changing material conditions.

Quote from Cassius

While there are definitely times and places in world history where sitting in a cave and subsisting on bread and water would be exactly the right course of conduct, doing as some do and setting up such states of existence as not only desirable, but the highest life desirable for a human being, would be better described in my view as "supremely stupid."

I feel the urge to address the "cave and bread" metaphor as it raises its head yet again. This is a favorite metaphor of Cassius's to illustrate the popular but misguided conception of Epicurean philosophy as ONLY satisfying the "natural and necessary" desires. As I understand it, the "cave" signifies the idea that Epicurus walled himself off from the world in the Garden, like some kind of medieval anchorite:

Anchorites: Medieval Women And Men Walled Up Alive

During the Middle Ages, thousands of women and men chose to be walled up alive. Read on to discover why anchorites were willingly immured.

www.thecollector.com

The popular "cave" isolation idea is simply wrong. The Garden, as I hope I've shown in my impromptu presentation and longer article available on the forum, wasn't isolated from Athenian society. The primary reason Epicurus taught in the Garden is that, as I understand, it was private property and he could do what he wanted there. The gymnasiarchs and others had no control or authority over what he taught there. It was what we would call "a safe space." What happens in the Garden stays in the Garden, to riff on a Vegas ad campaign. But that doesn't mean it was "cut off" or walled off from society (insert disgruntled frustrated noise here)... but I digress.

The "bread" is taken as literal instructions on how to live from the Letter to Menoikeus and other snippets taken out of context. I addressed the "maza (barley bread or porridge) and spring water" in my Menoikeus commentary to my satisfaction at least... but I am but a lone voice crying in the wilderness... (insert disgruntled frustrated noise here)

To take one random example of this conception, here's one of the first results in a web search on [Epicurus live on bread]

https://classicalwisdom.com/people/philosophers/epicurus-proto-scientist-secular-saint-and-sophisticated-hedonist/

Quote

Just as important to the Epicurean ethic is a reduction of desires. If we want less, we will be happy with less. The Epicurean path to happiness is not a result of an excess of external pleasures or material goods. Live simply, and without an excess of wealth or luxury, says Epicurus, and with that proclamation he very well may lay claim to the title of “first western minimalist!” Moderation, temperance, and cheerfulness are Epicurean virtues; unbridled luxury and feverish desire Epicurean vices.

From my readings, Epicurus does want us to look at our desires practically and with discretion. This website's "If we want less, we will be happy with less" is *almost* right, in my opinion. I would expand that to say "In times of want, we will be happy with less because we understand that we don't require - it is not a necessity - to have luxuries or even variety in all circumstances if we recognize the pleasure right in front of us. However, if we have the opportunity to partake of luxuries and variety with a minimum of stress, enjoy them! But don't think you *need* them to have a sense of well-being in your life." But that's a little wordy for a breezy podcast website!

I realize the "cave and bread and water" metaphor is a convenient shorthand for this on-going, perpetual, bang-one's-head-against-the-wall frustration with most/many popular and academic takes on Epicurus and his school and philosophy. That is exactly one of the reasons I like and recommend Dr. Emily Austin's Living for Pleasure so highly! I think she got it exactly right...but again... voice, Wilderness, (insert disgruntled frustrated noise here).

Quote

Nonetheless, numerous editions of Philodemus’ works, especially early ones, are unreliable.

I believe she's referring to one's from the 1800's and early 1900's. There's quite a few on Internet Archive.

Quote

Many were not based on a reading of the papyri themselves, but rather on the disegni, which are frequently wrong, and this led editors to be bolder about changing the texts presented in these copies, filling in gaps, and interpreting the results than they might have been had they read the papyri instead.

And this is exactly why those digitized papyri online are SO valuable. We all have access unimagined by earlier authors/scholars right at our fingertips.

Quote from Cassius

As we mentioned tonight in our Wednesday discussion, Diogenes Laertius says that according to Epicurus or the Epicureans:

[118] And even if the wise man be put on the rack, he is happy.

So next week as we continue to discuss these issues we will want to revisit whether we agree with Cicero's expecting that happiness for an Epicurean is something that is always under our control.

Hicks: Even on the rack the wise man is happy.

Yonge: That even if the wise man were to be put to the torture, he would still be happy.

It's important to remember that the original says εὐδαίμονα not "happy." There's a different connotation! It's not "Happy, ha ha" to my understanding. It's more content, well-being, "I did what I can do" satisfaction with life so to speak.

Trivia: στρεβλωθῇ means "stretch on the wheel or rack, to rack, torture, applied to slaves for the purpose of extracting evidence"

Hicks: When on the rack, however, he will give vent to cries and groans.

Yonge: Nor will he groan and howl when he is put to the torture.

So. will the σοφός groan or not?

The original text runs:

[118] κἂν στρεβλωθῇ δ᾽ ὁ σοφός, εἶναι αὐτὸν εὐδαίμονα, [μόνον τε χάριν ἕξειν τὸν σοφόν, καὶ ἐπὶ φίλοις καὶ παροῦσι καὶ ἀποῦσιν ὁμοίως διά τε λόγου184 <καὶ διὰ πράξεως>. ὅτε μέντοι στρεβλοῦται, ἔνθα καὶ μύζει καὶ οἰμώζει.

ὅτε μέντοι στρεβλοῦται, ἔνθα καὶ μύζει καὶ οἰμώζει. There doesn't appear to be a "nor" here:

ὅτε when

μέντοι indeed, however, to be sure

ἔνθα when

μύζει I. (he) murmurs with closed lips, mutters, moans.

(και) οἰμώζει (and) wails aloud, laments

So, Hicks seems to have the upper hand here. This also makes sense in the light of the sage being more affected by the emotions but also "having a sense of well-being" under torture.

Those two Vatican Sayings take on an interesting context with today being Valentine's Day

Thanks, Nate. I was completely unaware of this link. Just found online:

Quote from Cassius

Of course it's easy for anyone to post their own articles at substack

Which brings up an interesting question: Should more of us be posting to substack to increase the epicurean content "outside our Garden"? Or should we use Cassius' new outlet to simply expand the outlet of voices?

Some Substackers post daily! That amazes me. Cassius committing to a regular bi-weekly level of content is daunting!! Cassius has been doing weekly podcast releases for years. His posting a lengthy Substack article biweekly deserves ΚΥΔΟΣ (kudos)! I barely get a quarterly newsletter out at work!!

I read the new article, too. ΚΥΔΟΣ for that as well! Very impressive and highly referenced with quotes. Well done!!

I still really want to break down my Menoikeus material into an actual "study guide" format with maybe less language-specific and more topical "lessons"... but that will, of course, include delving into the actual meanings of key words.