1. Home
    1. Start Here: Study Guide
    2. Community Standards And Posting Policies
    3. Terms of Use
    4. Moderator Team
    5. Site Map
    6. Quizzes
    7. Articles
      1. Featured Articles
    8. All Blog Posts
      1. Elli's Blog / Articles
  2. Wiki
    1. Wiki Home
    2. FAQ
    3. Classical Epicureanism
    4. Physics Wiki
    5. Canonics Wiki
    6. Ethics Wiki
    7. Search Assistance
    8. Not NeoEpicurean
    9. Foundations
    10. Navigation Outlines
    11. Key Pages
  3. Forum
    1. Full Forum List
    2. Welcome Threads
    3. Physics
    4. Canonics
    5. Ethics
    6. Uncategorized Forum
    7. Study Resources Forum
    8. Ancient Texts Forum
    9. Shortcuts
    10. Featured
  4. Latest
    1. New Activity
    2. Latest Threads
    3. Dashboard
  5. Podcast
    1. Lucretius Today Podcast
    2. Episode Guide
    3. Lucretius Today At Youtube
    4. EpicureanFriends Youtube Page
  6. Texts
    1. Overview
    2. Diogenes Laertius
    3. Principal Doctrines
    4. Vatican Sayings
    5. Lucretius
    6. Herodotus
    7. Pythocles
    8. Menoeceus
    9. Fragments - Usener Collection
    10. Torquatus On Ethics
    11. Velleius On Gods
    12. Greek/Latin Help
  7. Gallery
    1. Featured images
    2. Albums
    3. Latest Images
    4. Latest Comments
  8. Calendar
    1. Upcoming Events List
    2. Zoom Meetings
    3. This Month
    4. Sunday Zoom Meetings
    5. First Monday Zoom Meetings
    6. Wednesday Zoom Meeting
    7. Twentieth Zoom Meetings
    8. Zoom Meetings
  9. Other
    1. Featured Content
    2. Blog Posts
    3. Files
    4. Logbook
    5. EF ToDo List
    6. Link-Database
  • Login
  • Register
  • Search
Everywhere
  • Everywhere
  • Forum
  • Articles
  • Blog Articles
  • Files
  • Gallery
  • Events
  • Pages
  • Wiki
  • Help
  • FAQ
  • More Options

Welcome To EpicureanFriends.com!

"Remember that you are mortal, and you have a limited time to live, and in devoting yourself to discussion of the nature of time and eternity you have seen things that have been, are now, and are to come."

Sign In Now
or
Register a new account
  1. Home
    1. Start Here: Study Guide
    2. Community Standards And Posting Policies
    3. Terms of Use
    4. Moderator Team
    5. Site Map
    6. Quizzes
    7. Articles
      1. Featured Articles
    8. All Blog Posts
      1. Elli's Blog / Articles
  2. Wiki
    1. Wiki Home
    2. FAQ
    3. Classical Epicureanism
    4. Physics Wiki
    5. Canonics Wiki
    6. Ethics Wiki
    7. Search Assistance
    8. Not NeoEpicurean
    9. Foundations
    10. Navigation Outlines
    11. Key Pages
  3. Forum
    1. Full Forum List
    2. Welcome Threads
    3. Physics
    4. Canonics
    5. Ethics
    6. Uncategorized Forum
    7. Study Resources Forum
    8. Ancient Texts Forum
    9. Shortcuts
    10. Featured
  4. Latest
    1. New Activity
    2. Latest Threads
    3. Dashboard
  5. Podcast
    1. Lucretius Today Podcast
    2. Episode Guide
    3. Lucretius Today At Youtube
    4. EpicureanFriends Youtube Page
  6. Texts
    1. Overview
    2. Diogenes Laertius
    3. Principal Doctrines
    4. Vatican Sayings
    5. Lucretius
    6. Herodotus
    7. Pythocles
    8. Menoeceus
    9. Fragments - Usener Collection
    10. Torquatus On Ethics
    11. Velleius On Gods
    12. Greek/Latin Help
  7. Gallery
    1. Featured images
    2. Albums
    3. Latest Images
    4. Latest Comments
  8. Calendar
    1. Upcoming Events List
    2. Zoom Meetings
    3. This Month
    4. Sunday Zoom Meetings
    5. First Monday Zoom Meetings
    6. Wednesday Zoom Meeting
    7. Twentieth Zoom Meetings
    8. Zoom Meetings
  9. Other
    1. Featured Content
    2. Blog Posts
    3. Files
    4. Logbook
    5. EF ToDo List
    6. Link-Database
  1. Home
    1. Start Here: Study Guide
    2. Community Standards And Posting Policies
    3. Terms of Use
    4. Moderator Team
    5. Site Map
    6. Quizzes
    7. Articles
      1. Featured Articles
    8. All Blog Posts
      1. Elli's Blog / Articles
  2. Wiki
    1. Wiki Home
    2. FAQ
    3. Classical Epicureanism
    4. Physics Wiki
    5. Canonics Wiki
    6. Ethics Wiki
    7. Search Assistance
    8. Not NeoEpicurean
    9. Foundations
    10. Navigation Outlines
    11. Key Pages
  3. Forum
    1. Full Forum List
    2. Welcome Threads
    3. Physics
    4. Canonics
    5. Ethics
    6. Uncategorized Forum
    7. Study Resources Forum
    8. Ancient Texts Forum
    9. Shortcuts
    10. Featured
  4. Latest
    1. New Activity
    2. Latest Threads
    3. Dashboard
  5. Podcast
    1. Lucretius Today Podcast
    2. Episode Guide
    3. Lucretius Today At Youtube
    4. EpicureanFriends Youtube Page
  6. Texts
    1. Overview
    2. Diogenes Laertius
    3. Principal Doctrines
    4. Vatican Sayings
    5. Lucretius
    6. Herodotus
    7. Pythocles
    8. Menoeceus
    9. Fragments - Usener Collection
    10. Torquatus On Ethics
    11. Velleius On Gods
    12. Greek/Latin Help
  7. Gallery
    1. Featured images
    2. Albums
    3. Latest Images
    4. Latest Comments
  8. Calendar
    1. Upcoming Events List
    2. Zoom Meetings
    3. This Month
    4. Sunday Zoom Meetings
    5. First Monday Zoom Meetings
    6. Wednesday Zoom Meeting
    7. Twentieth Zoom Meetings
    8. Zoom Meetings
  9. Other
    1. Featured Content
    2. Blog Posts
    3. Files
    4. Logbook
    5. EF ToDo List
    6. Link-Database
  1. EpicureanFriends - Home of Classical Epicurean Philosophy
  2. Don
  • Sidebar
  • Sidebar

Posts by Don

Regularly Checking In On A Small Screen Device? Bookmark THIS page!
  • Possible new method for reading Herculaneum scrolls

    • Don
    • May 27, 2024 at 9:40 AM

    Well said, Julia.

  • VS14 - My Take on VS14

    • Don
    • May 27, 2024 at 9:06 AM

    So, I found the Stobaeus citation:

    On Hathi Trust: https://hdl.handle.net/2027/njp.32101…97768772423-302

    But κύριος is not in the same spot as the other transcription. Curious. So if it's not in the manuscript, and Usener and Stobaeus (5th c CE) put it in different spots... What is the original source?? It *probably* should be in there, but it then continues to call into question the reliability of the Vatican manuscript itself! Having corroboration from that manuscript and other sources is best... But those instances are few and far between.

  • Possible new method for reading Herculaneum scrolls

    • Don
    • May 27, 2024 at 7:16 AM

    It doesn't appear to be a rumor. Unfortunately, it sounds like preservation of the scrolls* would be the least of the worries if the volcano erupted! The last time it happened, it created a new shape to the bay! Yikes.

    Naples sits on volcanic monsters - and one of them threatens to consume the city
    Beneath one of Italy's most densely populated cities, there is danger brewing.
    www.bbc.com

    Seismic storm hits Italy’s Campi Flegrei super volcano with strongest earthquake in 40 years

    Seismic storm hits Italy’s Campi Flegrei super volcano with strongest earthquake in 40 years | CNN
    www.cnn.com

    For those who want too much information on the Campi Flegrei caldera...

    Potential for rupture before eruption at Campi Flegrei caldera, Southern Italy - Communications Earth & Environment
    Unrest at the Campi Flegrei caldera, Italy, is consistent with the start of rupturing below the surface and a possible return to volcanic activity, according…
    www.nature.com

    *Don't get me wrong. Losing the scrolls, now on the verge of being readable, would be a tragedy!! But the scale of the potential eruption could be devastating for the entire region and possibly the world it sounds like. Yikes!!

  • VS14 - My Take on VS14

    • Don
    • May 26, 2024 at 11:21 PM
    Quote from Bryan

    "We have been born once – twice it is not possible to be born: it is necessary to no longer exist for eternity. But you, not being master of tomorrow, you delay joy! Life is lost by this delay – and each of us, while occupied, dies."


    Γεγόναμεν ἅπαξ – δὶς δὲ οὐκ ἔστι γενέσθαι: δεῖ δὲ τὸν αἰῶνα μηκέτι εἶναι. σὺ δὲ, οὐκ ὢν τῆς αὔριον κύριος, ἀναβάλλῃ τὸ χαῖρον! ὁ δὲ βίος μελλησμῷ παραπόλλυται – καὶ εἷς ἕκαστος ἡμῶν, ἀσχολούμενος, ἀποθνῄσκει.

    Hey, Bryan . I was looking over this thread and realized I had previously posted this:

    Post

    RE: VS14 - Thoughts on VS14 and source in Vatican manuscript

    The Vat.gr.1950 manuscript text reads:

    epicureanfriends.com/wcf/attachment/3901/

    https://digi.vatlib.it/view/MSS_Vat.gr.1950.pt.2/0255

    402r

    The typical transcription reads:

    γεγόναμεν ἅπαξ, δὶς δὲ οὐκ ἔστι γενέσθαι· δεῖ δὲ τὸν αἰῶνα μηκέτι εἶναι· σὺ δὲ οὐκ ὢν τῆς αὔριον κύριος ἀναβάλλῃ τὸ χαῖρον· ὁ δὲ βίος μελλησμῷ παραπόλλυται καὶ εἷς ἕκαστος ἡμῶν ἀσχολούμενος ἀποθνῄσκει.

    However, look at the VERY beginning of the saying. There is a large red capital epsilon: Ε' γεγοναμεν αμαξ... that…
    Don
    July 7, 2023 at 10:46 PM

    It appears that Vat.gr1950 actually has the first word in the pluperfect:

    'Εγεγοναμεν 'απαξ...

    which makes sense, as I understand, since the pluperfect is "more complete" than complete. It seems to me that it also hammers home that unique occurence when we are born. "We had been born once." It's clumsy in English, but I can understand why it might be there.

    Also, I'm not seeing any κυριος in "ὢν τῆς αὔριον κύριος". It looks to me like αυριον goes right into αναβαλλη...

    So, I'm getting something closer to...

    Εγεγόναμεν ἅπαξ - δὶς δὲ οὐκ ἔστι γενέσθαι - δεῖ δὲ τὸν αἰῶνα μηκέτι εἶναι - σὺ δὲ οὐκ ὢν - τῆς αὔριον ἀναβάλλῃ τὸ χαῖρον - ὁ δὲ βίος μελλησμῷ παραπόλλυται – καὶ εἷς ἕκαστος ἡμῶν ἀσχολούμενος ἀποθνῄσκει.

    The traditional transcription runs (including some different punctuation/breaks in the lines)...

    Γεγόναμεν ἅπαξ – δὶς δὲ οὐκ ἔστι γενέσθαι: δεῖ δὲ τὸν αἰῶνα μηκέτι εἶναι. σὺ δὲ, οὐκ ὢν τῆς αὔριον κύριος, ἀναβάλλῃ τὸ χαῖρον! ὁ δὲ βίος μελλησμῷ παραπόλλυται – καὶ εἷς ἕκαστος ἡμῶν, ἀσχολούμενος, ἀποθνῄσκει.

    Without kyrios, that middle line seems to me to be something more akin to σὺ δὲ οὐκ ὢν τῆς αὔριον ἀναβάλλῃ τὸ χαῖρον "Therefore, you are not the one who delays joy until tomorrow"???

  • Being content in your situation or taking a risk for greater pleasure.

    • Don
    • May 26, 2024 at 6:54 PM

    "Closer to Fine" by the Indigo Girls :)

  • Episode 230 - Cicero's OTNOTG - 05 - Velleius Attacks Misplaced Ideas of Divinity

    • Don
    • May 26, 2024 at 6:51 PM
    Quote from Godfrey

    We do have interoception, an awareness of our internal sensations.

    Agreed. Good point. Even there, there still has to be a sensation of something.

    I should say I didn't want to go down the rabbit hole of some sensor apart from the sensation. The sensation of the stimuli is sensation. No Cartesian duality or anything.

  • Episode 230 - Cicero's OTNOTG - 05 - Velleius Attacks Misplaced Ideas of Divinity

    • Don
    • May 26, 2024 at 4:20 PM
    Quote from Cassius
    Quote from Don

    If there's only one infinite being, by definition there would be nothing exterior to itself with which to interact with it

    I agree that sounds reasonable. Does that leave the question of whether it could be aware of itself? Does it leave additional questions anyone can think of about why an infinite being could not be aware of itself. Does "infinity" contradict the idea of being "a being"?

    I don't think we can be aware of ourselves without something external to us. There has to be a me and a you, this and that, for there to be awareness. You might counter with dreams or being in a coma. I think the only way awareness is possible in those circumstances is precisely because we've experienced ourselves in relation to an external world previously. We have never ever had the experience of being a completely autonomous being and never can have that experience.*

    *PS: Some might bring up sensory deprivation tanks. But people in those experience weird sensations and mental images because they're coming into the tank with those external experiences. Even cut off from sensory stimulation (while still alive!), our minds use prior experience to hallucinate or imagine or visualize.

  • Episode 230 - Cicero's OTNOTG - 05 - Velleius Attacks Misplaced Ideas of Divinity

    • Don
    • May 26, 2024 at 3:58 PM

    Here's my take:

    An infinite being would have nothing outside of itself *to* sense! If there's only one infinite being, by definition there would be nothing exterior to itself with which to interact with it. Same with motion. If there was only one infinite being encompassing everything, there would be no void into which it could move.

  • Being content in your situation or taking a risk for greater pleasure.

    • Don
    • May 26, 2024 at 3:53 PM
    Quote from Little Rocker

    Fret not, Don , my sad emoji was in jest. I'm just over here humming my favorite triumph-song, "Eye of the Tiger.'

    I need to stop taking things so literally! :D

    And :thumbup::thumbup:on your choice of "triumph-song"!

  • VS14 - My Take on VS14

    • Don
    • May 26, 2024 at 2:29 PM
    Quote from Bryan

    ἅπαξ

    I like that this is the same word used in the phrase hapax legomenon - a word that only occurs once in an existing corpus of texts. That connotation of a unique and singular existence seems appropriate.

    αὔριονκύριος "Master of Tomorrow" is a great word, too!

    PS... And ΓΕΓΟΝΑΜΕΝ ΑΠΑΞ is the next Epicurean T-shirt we need ^^

  • 2024 Discussion Of Current Books On Epicurus

    • Don
    • May 26, 2024 at 9:46 AM

    By Zeus, this thread along with the thread on VS47 makes me think a systematic review of Usener's "fragments" would turn up multiple problematic Epicurean attributions. It seems to me he and his colleagues may have been playing fast and loose. I have no doubts about Usener's scholarship and erudition (just as I respect DeWitt's qualities), but it seems to me he may have got a little full of himself that led to some hubris.

    (PS: Some may say that I have hubris to even question Usener or Bailey or even DeWitt, and maybe that's true. I would defend myself by saying that I'm not questioning Usener, Bailey, etc al. on a whim. I find a troubling number of their citations lacking in relevance to their assertions. I find their "corrections" and "reconstrctions" to be more flights of fancy in some places than reasoned well-founded scholarship. All this might mean that we have less extant Epicurean texts than we're led to believe, but maybe we need to concentrate on what we clearly have than what we like to have. )

  • Welcome Josh!

    • Don
    • May 25, 2024 at 9:32 PM
    Quote from Josh

    One question is there right now. Is “Tending the Epicurean Garden” worth to read? It was written by Hiram Crespo.

    I would enthusiastically endorse Emily Austin's "Living for Pleasure." It is, in my opinion, the best, most approachable, and conversational introduction to Epicurean philosophy and putting it into practice.

  • VS47 - Source in Vat.gr.1950 and elsewhere

    • Don
    • May 25, 2024 at 7:51 PM

    That's great, Bryan ! You da man!! :)

    I just found that quote in that saying is from the Iliad, I.70:

    Homer, Iliad, Book 1, line 68

    Quote from Iliad, I.69/70

    When he had thus spoken he sat down, and among them arose Calchas son of Thestor, far the best of bird-diviners, who knew the things that were, and that were to be, and that had been before,

  • Being content in your situation or taking a risk for greater pleasure.

    • Don
    • May 25, 2024 at 2:29 PM
    Quote from Cassius

    even if the line *didn't* end that way, it *could* have ended that way

    And I'm more than fine with that! It's a nice use of classical themes and allusions. Coming up with new metaphors and sayings would be a fine exercise!

    I just think it's disingenuous to pass off one's "brilliant emendation" as the actual ancient text.

    Usener's "correction" appears to have really stuck in my craw.

  • Being content in your situation or taking a risk for greater pleasure.

    • Don
    • May 25, 2024 at 9:28 AM
    Quote from Don

    Always the killjoy here at the forum ^^... I just made a post on the VS47 thread that the word "triumph-song" is not in the original manuscript... that's a "correction" by Usener. Feel free to continue the conversation over there:

    Thread

    VS47 - Source in Vat.gr.1950 and elsewhere

    This saying is attributed to Metrodorus.

    Here is the manuscript of VS47

    epicureanfriends.com/wcf/attachment/4774/

    (Source: Vat.gr.1950, part 2, 403verso)

    And here is the text in Metrodori Epicurei Fragmenta collegit scriptoris incerti Epicurei Commentarium moralem, subiecit Alfredus Koerte (p.561)

    epicureanfriends.com/wcf/attachment/4775/

    That famous word "triumph-song" does not appear in the manuscript! It is a "correction" by Usener, clearly shown in the manuscript itself and in Note (5) in…
    Don
    May 23, 2024 at 6:46 AM

    I'll admit I feel bad I made Little Rocker sad (see emoticons). In the end, I agree with Cassius about the need for accuracy. When we have access to the manuscripts themselves - the same ones examined by scholars of the past and present - we don't have to just accept the "brilliant emendations" they give. Trying to get to an accurate transcription and reconstruction of texts is one thing. Being clever and trying to outsmart or "correct" an ancient scribe is another, in my opinion.

  • VS47 - Source in Vat.gr.1950 and elsewhere

    • Don
    • May 24, 2024 at 4:08 PM
    Quote from Cassius

    If so, then that helps further to understand Usener's point.

    I think Usener was being clever and trying to show off. Occam's Razor tells me that if πλειονος is viable and that's what the manuscript shows with no other conflicting manuscript evidence to the contrary, I'm not impressed by Usener's "brilliant emendation."

  • VS47 - Source in Vat.gr.1950 and elsewhere

    • Don
    • May 24, 2024 at 3:20 PM

    Yeah, Aristophanes ended his plays like that a lot.

  • VS47 - Source in Vat.gr.1950 and elsewhere

    • Don
    • May 24, 2024 at 1:44 PM
    Quote from Bryan

    .ἄπιμεν ἐκ τοῦ ζῆν μετὰ καλοῦ πλείονος ἐπιφωνοῦντες ὡς εὖ ἡμῖν βεβίωται.

    ...we shall depart from life with more [of] good, proclaiming that we have lived well.

    Yes. With the "more nobly" going with the departing?

  • VS47 - Source in Vat.gr.1950 and elsewhere

    • Don
    • May 24, 2024 at 11:58 AM
    Quote from Cassius

    Anyone familiar with the reference to Aristophanes?

    Assuming it's referring to the cast of the play singing and dancing their way off the stage at the end of his plays.

    But επιφωνουντες doesn't imply singing or dancing, just "call out, proclaim, exclaim"

  • VS47 - Source in Vat.gr.1950 and elsewhere

    • Don
    • May 24, 2024 at 11:57 AM

    I did a Google search for "μετά πλειονος" alone and came up with numerous examples from numerous texts. For example, "μετὰ πλείονος ἡδονῆς, μετὰ πλείονος εὐφροσύνης" "More happily and comfortably" just with the other genitive after and not before, but Greek word order was flexible to a degree.

    πλειονος is a neuter singular genitive of πλειον (Attic form of πλειων). As such, it looks like it usually means something like "more"

    καλού is neuter singular of καλος with all its various connotations: beauty, nobility, good, etc.

    So, I guess I'm leaning toward something like "more nobly; more beautifully; more honorably, etc" with the "more than those who don't follow pleasure as their guide" implied.

Unread Threads

    1. Title
    2. Replies
    3. Last Reply
    1. Philodemus' "On Anger" - General - Texts and Resources 20

      • Like 1
      • Cassius
      • April 1, 2022 at 5:36 PM
      • Philodemus On Anger
      • Cassius
      • July 8, 2025 at 7:33 AM
    2. Replies
      20
      Views
      6.8k
      20
    3. Kalosyni

      July 8, 2025 at 7:33 AM
    1. Mocking Epithets 3

      • Like 3
      • Bryan
      • July 4, 2025 at 3:01 PM
      • Comparing Epicurus With Other Philosophers - General Discussion
      • Bryan
      • July 6, 2025 at 9:47 PM
    2. Replies
      3
      Views
      348
      3
    3. Bryan

      July 6, 2025 at 9:47 PM
    1. Best Lucretius translation? 12

      • Like 1
      • Rolf
      • June 19, 2025 at 8:40 AM
      • General Discussion of "On The Nature of Things"
      • Rolf
      • July 1, 2025 at 1:59 PM
    2. Replies
      12
      Views
      954
      12
    3. Eikadistes

      July 1, 2025 at 1:59 PM
    1. The Religion of Nature - as supported by Lucretius' De Rerum Natura 4

      • Thanks 1
      • Kalosyni
      • June 12, 2025 at 12:03 PM
      • General Discussion of "On The Nature of Things"
      • Kalosyni
      • June 23, 2025 at 12:36 AM
    2. Replies
      4
      Views
      887
      4
    3. Godfrey

      June 23, 2025 at 12:36 AM
    1. New Blog Post From Elli - " Fanaticism and the Danger of Dogmatism in Political and Religious Thought: An Epicurean Reading"

      • Like 3
      • Cassius
      • June 20, 2025 at 4:31 PM
      • Epicurus vs Abraham (Judaism, Christianity, Islam)
      • Cassius
      • June 20, 2025 at 4:31 PM
    2. Replies
      0
      Views
      2.1k

Latest Posts

  • Epicurus' Prolepsis vs Heraclitus' Flux

    Cassius July 10, 2025 at 3:41 PM
  • Lucretius Today Episode 289 Posted - "Epicureans Are Not Spocks!"

    Cassius July 10, 2025 at 12:09 PM
  • Episode 289 - TD19 - "Epicureans Are Not Spocks!"

    Cassius July 10, 2025 at 12:03 PM
  • Happy Birthday General Thread

    Patrikios July 9, 2025 at 7:33 PM
  • Epicurus and the Pleasure of the Stomach

    Kalosyni July 9, 2025 at 9:59 AM
  • Welcome Dlippman!

    dlippman July 9, 2025 at 9:18 AM
  • Epicurus And The Dylan Thomas Poem - "Do Not Go Gentle Into That Good Night"

    Adrastus July 9, 2025 at 3:42 AM
  • Philodemus' "On Anger" - General - Texts and Resources

    Kalosyni July 8, 2025 at 7:33 AM
  • July 7, 2025 First Monday Zoom Discussion 8pm ET - Agenda & Topic of discussion

    Don July 7, 2025 at 5:57 PM
  • News And Announcements Box Added To Front Page

    Cassius July 7, 2025 at 10:32 AM

EpicureanFriends - Classical Epicurean Philosophy

  1. Home
    1. About Us
    2. Classical Epicurean Philosophy
  2. Wiki
    1. Getting Started
  3. Frequently Asked Questions
    1. Site Map
  4. Forum
    1. Latest Threads
    2. Featured Threads
    3. Unread Posts
  5. Texts
    1. Core Texts
    2. Biography of Epicurus
    3. Lucretius
  6. Articles
    1. Latest Articles
  7. Gallery
    1. Featured Images
  8. Calendar
    1. This Month At EpicureanFriends
Powered by WoltLab Suite™ 6.0.22
Style: Inspire by cls-design
Stylename
Inspire
Manufacturer
cls-design
Licence
Commercial styles
Help
Supportforum
Visit cls-design