Posts by Don

Against Cicero

Why Cicero's Critique of Epicureanism Misses the Mark (And Why Modern Stoics Should Know Better)

open.substack.com

An interesting take on Cicero's criticism a regards virtue

Consider a light house.

The lighthouse is always there. We steer our little boat towards the lighthouse. We steer away from the rocks and shoals by the beacon of the lighthouse. We choose to keep going through storms and rocks to get to safety. We don't sit out the storm, unless we're too far out to see when we have to heave to.

That's a draft metaphor. Thoughts welcomed.

Ancient fidget spinners?

Quote from Kalosyni

I am motivated by the removal of pain.

Or you are motivated by the need to move toward pleasure.

PS. I'm thinking some of this is a matter of perspective and not just linguistic trickery.

Quote from Don

I have thoughts on the word "goal" for τέλος ... But that'll have to wait until this evening.

Okay, so what was I alluding to?

ΤΕΛΟΣ (telos) is often - predominantly - translated into the English as "goal," sometimes "end." This implies what comes at the finish of a race or end of a game or "winning if you reach the goal." That's an unfortunate side effect of working with the English word "goal." Think of a football/soccer match and the announcer yelling "GOOOOOAAAAL!"

My thought is that ΤΕΛΟΣ (and I'm purposefully using the Greek spelling to remove it from contamination of English semantics) should NOT be taken as a "goal" to be achieved but rather as a fact to be acknowledged. Let me provide a link to the dictionary here to start:

https://logeion.uchicago.edu/%CF%84%CE%AD%CE%BB%CE%BF%CF%82

While ΤΕΛΟΣ does have, within its dictionary definitions, English words like "achievement, attainment; winning-post, goal"; the connotation I want to focus on is "Philos., full realization, highest point. ideal; ... the end or purpose of action: hence, the final cause: hence simply = τὸ ἀγαθόν, the chief good."

When Epikouros writes to Menoikeus to say "καὶ διὰ τοῦτο τὴν ἡδονὴν ἀρχὴν καὶ τέλος λέγομεν εἶναι τοῦ μακαρίως ζῆν" I maintain it is NOT something like "pleasure is the start ἀρχὴν and finish τέλος of the blessed life." The blessed life is enveloped by pleasure, it is the foundation and the fulfillment of the blessed life but we need to acknowledge that and live our life that way. The blessed life - a life akin to the gods - is a life where all one's actions are pointing toward pleasure. When we ask the question "Why do I do that?" the answer is always "for pleasure". If I undergo a painful trial to have a better life on the other side, the reason I went through that pain is pleasure. Pleasure imbues EVERYTHING we do. If we try to substitute another answer to "Why do I do that?" we are fooling ourselves. Pleasure is not a "winning-post" to be reached, something we have to strive for or agonize about not having or something to swim against the tide to achieve. Pleasure is present - sometimes slightly, sometimes intensely - in every moment of the day in everything we do. If we see Pleasure as something "out there" that we have to achieve, we're missing out.

"Goal" is an insufficient way to express the omnipresence of Pleasure. "Pleasure is the goal" is a pale way of saying - as I consider it more - "Pleasure is the reason I do everything." Pleasure is the final cause for all my actions. That kind of "final goal" is what is meant by "Pleasure is the goal." It's NOT "Pleasure is the GOAL" it is rather "Pleasure IS the goal."

We ONLY experience two feelings: Pleasure or Pain. If Cicero wants to go all apoplectic on what he considers an idiosyncratic use of "voluptas" or ηδονη, boohoo Cicero. It seems to me to be Epicurus calling reality as he sees it.

Pleasure exists as the omnipresent end-point of all our actions. We don't have to run the race to achieve pleasure. It is here, now, in every decision, every action, IF we're willing to admit that that is - in every moment - the final cause of all our actions.

That's what I'm beginning to understand "Pleasure is the goal" to mean.

I have thoughts on the word "goal" for τέλος ... But that'll have to wait until this evening.

Just finishing lunch at work. For later reference...

DCLP/Trismegistos 865216 = LDAB 865216

Quote from Cassius

Thanks Don --- the second link worked fine but not the first -- looks like there's maybe an error in "entry=a)reth" in that link?

Try it now. Thanks!

ΑΡΕΤΗ (my misspelling previously)

Henry George Liddell, Robert Scott, A Greek-English Lexicon, ἀρετή

Virtus

Charlton T. Lewis, Charles Short, A Latin Dictionary, virtūs

I think you have to start even more basic.

What is virtue?

Αρήτη (arete) means something wider than what we tend to think of as "virtue."

And Latin virtus is bound up with being "manly" being a vir.

While I certainly see where Cassius is coming from in his posts above and I don't think he's saying what I'm adding next, I want to add that Epicureans are not going to go looking for or initiating "conflict/confrontation and danger."

Would an Epicurean defend herself against attack? Of course! To protect one's life is of paramount importance.

Would an Epicurean confront an injustice and support means to alleviate that injustice? Yes, most likely, but they would seek to understand the context.

Would an Epicurean willingly risk danger for a friend? Absolutely!

But I'm highly skeptical of the Epicurean putting themselves in harm's way needlessly or recklessly. I don't see the Epicurean "picking a fight." Will they fight if the alternative is more pain? Yes. That's the difference I want to emphasize in this thread from my perspective.

Quote from Cassius

It may be observed in passing that St. Paul quoted the words Peace and Safety as catchwords of the Epicureans, to whom he refused the honor of mention by name.69

For the record: Footnote 69 is merely a citation to 1 Thessalonians 5:3. Nothing to support Dewitt's contention it was an Epicurean "catchword" is contained in that footnote.

Quote from Cassius

Regretfully I am going to have to announce another one week postponement of this episode.

You're just building anticipation

Quote from Cassius

It sure would but Don that link doesn't work for me.

Let's try again...

Plato, Timaeus, section 17a

Would Perseus' Lamb translation be helpful?

https://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?do…80%3atext%3dTim.

411 sounds more like the Biblical and Gilgamesh floods... Or just floods in general.

Again, from all I've seen, there's nothing to show Atlantis was a real place.

The MEGA hats, honestly, give me pause even though I get the tongue in cheek aspect.

Is it possible or even desirable to get the piglet or SFOTSE or even a graphic Epicurus on a hat?

Quote from JamesPConnolly

Well well, I was reading one of the four letters a few days ago, the one to Pythocles

The podcast team did a great job in going through that letter. There's a lot more going on in there than I realized:

Lucretius Today Episode Guide - Epicureanfriends.com

www.epicureanfriends.com

All evidence points to Plato making Atlantis up for rhetorical purposes. Everybody points back to him. The podcast series I posted does a good job of debunking the myth, and also goes into the nasty white supremacist uses of the myth as well.

CASSIUS ADMIN NOTE: I am splitting this off from another thread (link here)so as not to divert that one. My main interest at the moment is to trace back in outline form the question of what the Epicureans and/or other ancients might have thought about this question, given the importance of the Timaeus in Greek ideas about world history and the nature of the world as a whole. Don's links may answer that question already but I think the topic is worthy of being clear so we can relate that aspect to the rest of Plato's discussion of creation and world history.

Was the entire story of Atlantis, and/or the rest of his creation story, understood by the ancients to be allegorical?

Quote from Cassius

This is the source (or part of the source) of the story of Atlantis, so it's interesting for lots of reasons.

Just for the record, there was no physical place called Atlantis. It is entirely a literary invention of Plato to make a philosophical point.

Atlantis - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

While some leave open the idea that Plato may have been *inspired* by accounts of the eruption of Thera or other events, the "myth of Atlantis" is just that - a myth.

The podcast Let's Talk About Myths, Baby! did an excellent series on Atlantis:

Atlantis — Let's Talk About Myths, Baby!

www.mythsbaby.com