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I'm curious if any of the newer members of the forum have ideas on a "symbol/logo" for Epicureanism.
I have an idea for a flag, if that counts!
A piglet, in attic-black, wreathed with laurel styled the same, on a field of goldenrod.
Piglet;
Wreathed in Laurel;
In Attic Black-Figure;
On a field of goldenrod;
The best thing the History Channel ever did, in my view, was a program that ran for one season called Engineering an Empire.
Go Here and at the 25 minute mark there is a good little bit on how the keystone arch transformed Roman architecture.
A metaphor for the relationship between the three core components of Epicurean philosophy.
The keystone arch was a Roman invention, and a gateway to the building of the palatial domes and vaulted ceilings of Imperial architecture. For us, it may stand as a symbol for the careful balance of the Epicurean system.
The keystone, or capstone, is clearly supported by the stones on either side. But just as the apex of the span is supported by the lower elements, it supports them also in its turn; the arch, though classified into parts, is in truth a single self-reinforcing whole. The Physics may stand alone, but standing alone it is weakened; and the same with the Canonics. Together they hold up the higher order function of the Ethics, and, so doing, hold each other up as well---and so without the Ethics, the system falls.
Very good! The language requirements for being a good classicist are staggering. Not only Latin and Greek, but English, French, and German are essential for getting a handle on the bulk of the commentary. Then the scripts--Roman and Greek, Linear B, Demotic--and the particular forms that were standard in inscriptions and graffiti.
Thank you, Don! I am of a kind with Shakespeare on this point; "small Latin and less Greek," or so Ben Jonson styles it.
On the Pleasure of Choice:
That is interesting.
I knew the word αἱρέσεις, "choice", because of its modern English derivative; Heresy. Your translation seems to my ear to invite the comparison, as it was precisely the pleasure of choice that would have been so anathema to later Christians.
If the Inquiry into Natural Causes (is) Useful in Regard to Moral Philosophy
This is interesting as well, and bears on our most recent and upcoming podcast episodes. We'll have a lot to talk about on this question on Sunday!
Thank you again for your efforts!
Diogenes. . .waged from the mountain fastness of Oenoanda his own war against the superstitions of his age: the base popular conceptions of the gods, oracles, dreams, and the philosophers' belief in the transmigration of the soul.
The article is worth it for this sentence alone!
Haven't finished this yet, it may give us nothing new. Eikadistes has already done quite a lot in this area.
A minor curiosity;
It appears that Galen wrote several treatise's on Epicurus (almost certainly lost).
Perhaps Don can help with these. I read it (badly) as;
XVI. On the philosophy of Epicurus [anekonta?]
On Epicurus' Eudaimonia and the Happiness of Life
two: On Epicurus [?] Pleasure: [can't make anything of this...something about making and pleasure and imperfection]
On Choosing Pleasure: [?] The usefulness of Physiology in Moral Philosophy
On the (seven books? of the) Sophists
Metrodorus: Epistle to Celsus the Epicurean: Epistle to Pudentianus the Epicurean.
It’s not my place to point out that the book conveniently disregards a key part of Epicureanism, ataraxia, that urges us to withdraw from the world and to "be indifferent to suffering and death in other people" — a disturbing apathy at odds with much of modernity, not to mention the civic ethics of the early modern period. "De rerum natura" actually proposes an apathetic, anesthetized calm that is as incompatible with empathy, compassion, affection, bodily pleasure, or joyful happiness as it is with pain. Hardly inspiring, and hardly an improvement on, well, anything.
Cassius' recent mention of Stephen Greenblatt has reminded me of one of my favorite hobby-horses---Greenblatt's detractors.
The above quote comes from an article in Vox, written by (of course) a Medievalist.
More:
I am not a classicist or a philosopher, so I won’t go into how actual philosophers point out that Epicureanism wasn’t anywhere as widespread in the classical world as Greenblatt suggests [...]
Why it should be the province of philosophers to determine this 'fact' is beyond my power to say. But I am interested in the question. How should we go about determining how widespread Epicureanism was in Antiquity?
We know that geographically we can place ancient Epicureanism on three different continents. We can place them as far north and west as Autun in France, and as far south and east as Alexandria. We know from Cicero that the oldest Latin texts in his day were written by Epicureans (Amafinius?)
We know also from Cicero that Epicureanism was popular among the hoi polloi, and from Plotina herself that an Empress of Rome was sympathetic to them. Gravestones, finger rings, busts, papyrus scrolls...is there a way to collate all this information?
Kalosyni one of the closest threads is this one started by Joshua: Is Pleasure the Only Good?
I can't even make sense of that post, and I wrote it...
You have every right to call things what you choose, Joshua. But Secular Buddhists will probably continue to identify themselves as Buddhist. In fact those who follow Stephen Batchelor's line will say the Theravada tradition is NOT true Buddhism, that it suffers from translation errors that fundamentally distorted the Buddha's message, and also that the elements you describe such as karma and rebirth and so forth were NOT part of the Buddha's message at all but rather muddied their way into the Buddha's recorded teachings over time. Batchelor suggests this happened as part of an attempt to better conform the new "religion" to the widely accepted and deeply engrained soteriology in India thought.
That is all fair enough, and I have no dog in this fight. I read Buddhism Without Beliefs sometime--oh--ten years ago perhaps. I seem to recall that his views on the prevalence of rebirth in Indian thought at the time of the Buddha were somewhat controversial. But I may be mistaken in that.
What will be really helpful is to have not one outline, but three; Theravadin, Mahayana and Secular. And I will happily yield to whomever shall take the lists (pun intended!)
Legend tells that Aphrodite, filling her pail at the streams of the Cephisus, blew down upon the land temperate [840] and sweetly blowing breezes. And ever dressing her hair with a fragrant chaplet of roses she sends the Loves to sit at Wisdom's side, [845] joint workers in every kind of excellence.
-Medea, by Euripides
Another connection between Cephisus and Aphrodite.
I have put together a rough outline of the first chapter, if that be helpful. I will certainly be in attendance this evening!
"The Good Place" is indeed a worthwhile show, Don, and your question a good one!
I can give no answer to this objection: Epicurus assures us of the existence of his gods, but for me they are symbols merely; something imagined, and imaginary--but pedagogically useful, and to be kept, as it were, "before the eyes". 
In view of the above list, you will apprehend the impossibility of removing rebirth, kamma [karma] or nibbana [nirvana] from Buddhism. They are integral. There are those in the secular community who keep the name of Buddhism for its ethics, or for its mindfulness, or for its psychology---but whatever it is that remains, it is not Buddhism.
I will attempt to take Cassius up on his request for an epitome of Buddhist teachings; assuming here that the Theravada school represents them best, and with the caveat that I have not studied these teachings for a number of years.
Let's pretend that what follows is the voice of a believer;
1. In spite of appearances, I am convinced after meditating deeply that I have no 'self'. ['No self' = anatta or no atta, Hindu atman]
2. Having no self, "I" shall not reincarnate; neither shall "I" die.
3. But something of me shall be reborn or passed on, the way the heat from one candle passes on to ignite a second candle.
4. I perceive other sentient beings; animals, and other humans, and also gods. I conclude that these also have no 'self'.
5. These, too, shall experience rebirth; even the gods are part of this cycle.
6. The condition of this cycle, from the lowliest cockroach to the wisest among gods, is the condition of suffering.
7. The way to end the cycle is to end suffering.
8. That part of me which has been reborn in this life cannot have ended suffering, else it should not have been reborn.
9. Therefore suffering leaves traces, a residue (kamma) and to end suffering I must erase the residue of suffering of my cosmic past.
10. If I can accomplish this, I will no longer be bound to the cycle: I will not be reborn, but will have achieved nibbana, a complete quenching of suffering.
11. This can only be achieved in a human rebirth; the lower animals have no ability to look beyond their immediate suffering, and as for the gods, they are too caught up in palliative pleasures to see the need to break the cycle.
12. To break the cycle is immensely difficult. It cannot be done in one life, but only by successive rebirths working toward the goal.
13. For most people it might not be possible at all---except that my master the Buddha has found the way.
14. He is not a god, nor a savior; he is only a guide. He attained nibbana, and tarried here long enough to show others the way, crying always, like a ferryman, "anyone for the other shore?"
15. I wish to end the cycle for myself; therefore, I am a Buddhist.
I take refuge in the Buddha [the awakened], the Dhamma [his teachings], and the Sangha [the body of his enlightened followers].
I will avoid the three fetters of 1. Belief in self, 2. Doubt, and 3. Attachment to rites and rituals.
I will avoid the three poisons of 1. Greed, 2. Ignorance, and 3. Hatred
I will follow the Noble Eightfold Path, of;
1. Right View
2. Right Intention
3. Right Speech
4. Right action
5. Right livelihood
6. Right effort
7. Right concentration
8. Right mindfulness
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I can easily recommend Huston Smith's book on the World's Religions to anyone who wishes to know more, and I am happy to be corrected on any of the above points.
...then all we can do is point to modern science, which for moderate and severe levels of depression uses a combination of talk therapy and medication.
Yes, Kalosyni, I think that is the best and wisest course!
Don, I was not able to read that in time for recording, but thank you for posting it! I still need to read Sedley.
Show Notes:
Thank you to Marco for supplying my deficiency last week in reference to the story about the wild horse!
Lucretius in the context of Roman Handbooks
--De Rerum Natura, On the Nature of Things, compared with;
--De Aquaeductu, on the Roman Water Supply
By Frontinus
--De Agri Cultura, on Agriculture
--De Rei Militari, on Military Matters
By Vegetius
--De Medicina, on Medicine
--De Architectura, on Architecture
By Vitruvius
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Lucian's Alexander the Oracle-Monger
Epicurus' Letter to Herodotus
Epicurus' Letter to Menoeceus
Meditations by Marcus Aurelius
---(I have searched in vain for a more even-handed [i.e. non-Epicurean] account of how Marcus Aurelius fell into Alexander's trap, and can find none. Perhap's our listeners can do better. Add to the comments!)
Letter to Herodotus
Wherefore since the method I have described is valuable to all those who are accustomed to the investigation of nature, I who urge upon others the constant occupation in the investigation of nature, and find my own peace chiefly in a life so occupied, have composed for you another epitome on these lines, summing up the first principles of the whole doctrine.
First of all, Herodotus, we must grasp the ideas attached to words, in order that we may be able to refer to them and so to judge the inferences of opinion or problems of investigation or reflection, so that we may not either leave everything uncertain and go on explaining to infinity or use words devoid of meaning.
For this purpose it is essential that the first mental image associated with each word should be regarded, and that there should be no need of explanation, if we are really to have a standard to which to refer a problem of investigation or reflection or a mental inference. (translated by Cyril Bailey)
