Posts by Joshua

Chapter 2 Outline (slightly out of order with the text)

I. In the house of Epicurus, Theon meets three Scholars and two Problems

A. Sofron

1. Too eager to please (or too eager to trust?)

A. First to greet Theon

B. "premature affection"

C. "I hope [Theon] will judge all things, and all people, with his own understanding, and not with that of Epicurus"

B. Metrodorus

1. Too zealous to condemn (and too hesitant to forgive?)

A. "there are vices, different from those he saved me from, which, if not more unworthy, are perhaps more unpardonable, because committed with less temptation"

B. "Are we not prone,” said the sage, “to extenuate our foibles, even while condemning them? And does it not flatter our self-love, to weigh our own vices against those of more erring neighbors?"

C. Leontion

1. Appropriate; her bearing and conduct is in harmony with philosophy

A. "But I would not particularize Theophrastus for sometimes forgetting this, as I have never known but one who always remembers it." [on arguing with care and modesty]

B. "Such grace! such majesty! More than all such intellect! And this — this was the Leontium Timocrates had called a prostitute without shame or measure!"

II. Epicurus answers the two philosophical problems

A. Problem; “I know not,” resumed Leontium, “that I should this evening have so frequently thought Theophrastus wrong, if he had not made me so continually feel that he thought himself right. Must I seek the cause of this in the writer’s or the reader’s vanity?”

1. “Perhaps,” said the master, smiling, ” you will find that it lies in both.”

2. "The mode of delivering a truth makes, for the most part, as much impression on the mind of the listener, as the truth itself."

B. Problem: “Whether the vicious were more justly objects of indignation or of contempt: Metrodorus argued for the first, and I for the latter. Let the master decide.”

1. “He will give his opinion certainly; but that is not decision.”

2. "Had I regarded the vicious with indignation, I had never gained one to virtue. Had I viewed them with contempt, I had never sought to gain one.”

III. Zeno's Virtue and the lies of Timocrates

A. Theon: "I have long owned the power of virtue, but surely till this night I never felt its persuasion.”

B. Epicurus, on Timocrates; “And so I do. I answer him in my life. The only way in which a philosopher should ever answer a fool, or, as in this case, a knave.”

C. Epicurus on Zeno; "Don’t you know that who quarrels with your doctrine, must always quarrel with your practice? Nothing is so provoking as that a man should preach viciously and act virtuously.”

Chapter 2 outline.pdf

Outlining is a good practice, I never realized before that Sofron, Metrodorus and Leontion seem to be presented in goldilocks-style contrast.

Summary of Pyrrhonism

From the Wikipedia article on Pyrrho;

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A summary of Pyrrho's philosophy was preserved by Eusebius, quoting Aristocles, quoting Timon, in what is known as the "Aristocles passage."[7] There are conflicting interpretations of the ideas presented in this passage, each of which leads to a different conclusion as to what Pyrrho meant.[7]

Whoever wants to live well (eudaimonia) must consider these three questions: First, how are pragmata (ethical matters, affairs, topics) by nature? Secondly, what attitude should we adopt towards them? Thirdly, what will be the outcome for those who have this attitude?" Pyrrho's answer is that "As for pragmata they are all adiaphora (undifferentiated by a logical differentia), astathmēta (unstable, unbalanced, not measurable), and anepikrita (unjudged, unfixed, undecidable). Therefore, neither our sense-perceptions nor our doxai (views, theories, beliefs) tell us the truth or lie; so we certainly should not rely on them. Rather, we should be adoxastoi (without views), aklineis (uninclined toward this side or that), and akradantoi (unwavering in our refusal to choose), saying about every single one that it no more is than it is not or it both is and is not or it neither is nor is not.

Why did I bring the flat earth into this?

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The 1876 Larousse dictionary, p. 1479, wrote thus:

The name of zététiques, which means seekers, indicates a rather original nuance of skepticism: it is provisional skepticism, it is close to Descartes' idea about doubt as a means, not as an end, as a preliminary procedure, not as a definitive result. If all skeptics really were zététiques and only zététiques, they would have said with Pyrrho: "We do not arrive at doubt, but at the suspension of judgement" ... skeptics literally mean examiners, people who think, reflect, study attentively; but in the long run they take a more negative than doubtful stance, and has meant that those who are under the pretext of always examining never decide. ... the word zététiques is not made to resolve the debate between the two meanings of all these terms ... Moreover, the name zététiques has remained on the ground of the school that created it; and, despite its wide expansion, which would have helped make the term general for all seekers of truth in all fields, it is exclusively applied to skeptics, and we could even say to Greek skeptics or Pyrrhonists.

That may sound well and good; but enter Zetetic Astronomy, and see where it leads.

Zetetic Astronomy

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Samuel Birley Rowbotham (/ˈroʊbɒtəm/;[1] 1816 – 23 December 1884, in London) was an English inventor, writer and socialist[2] who wrote Zetetic Astronomy: Earth Not a Globe under the pseudonym Parallax. His work was originally published as a 16-page pamphlet (1849), and later expanded into a book (1865).

Rowbotham's method, which he called zetetic astronomy, models the Earth as a flat disc centered at the North Pole and bounded along its perimeter by a wall of ice, with the Sun, Moon, planets, and stars moving only several thousand miles above the surface of Earth.

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In his lectures and writings, Samuel Birley Rowbotham, founder of the modern flat-earth movement, repeatedly emphasized the importance of sticking to the facts. He called his system “zetetic astronomy” (zetetic from the Greek verb zetetikos, meaning to seek or inquire) because he sought only facts, and left mere theories to the likes of Copernicus and Newton. Rowbotham devoted the entire first chapter of his magnum opus to praising facts at the expense of theories, concluding, “Let the practise of theorising be abandoned as one oppressive to the reasoning powers, fatal to the full development of truth, and, in every sense, inimical to the solid progress of sound philosophy.”

The sad story of Lucy Harris in the early history of Mormonism may furnish one example of this. Her husband's unfortunate credulity cost them first the farm and then their marriage.

I am persuaded by observation that St. Paul and the Catholic Church actually make a good point when it comes to marriage and relationships.

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Be ye not unequally yoked together with unbelievers: for what fellowship hath righteousness with unrighteousness? and what communion hath light with darkness?

I do not, of course, accept his definitions of "light" and "righteousness". And not everyone will be flattered by the image of yoked oxen as a metaphor for marriage.

But there is something to the idea that a compatible foundation of values and beliefs about 'the constitution of the world' is important to long-term happiness and cooperation.

I do not say that it cannot work; only that it will be very difficult to make it work. And this may partly explain the reluctance of some people to pursue marriage, for who can say what changes may develop in the space of decades?

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It is the color of paper that the Church of Scientology's Ethics Department prints its Suppressive Person Declares on, giving rise to the term "golden-rodding".

I see that goldenrod is also a badge of honor! 😅

A simpler option is this ⟐, done in the same style.

Because saffron has religious connotations in the East, and I don't know the names of very many colors!

Whatever best matches the ceramic on attic pottery would be my choice.

Edit; the range of colors that meet that criteria is of course quite broad, going from buff through yellow and into the reds.

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I'm curious if any of the newer members of the forum have ideas on a "symbol/logo" for Epicureanism.

I have an idea for a flag, if that counts!

A piglet, in attic-black, wreathed with laurel styled the same, on a field of goldenrod.

Piglet;

Wreathed in Laurel;

In Attic Black-Figure;

On a field of goldenrod;

The best thing the History Channel ever did, in my view, was a program that ran for one season called Engineering an Empire.

Go Here and at the 25 minute mark there is a good little bit on how the keystone arch transformed Roman architecture.

A metaphor for the relationship between the three core components of Epicurean philosophy.

The keystone arch was a Roman invention, and a gateway to the building of the palatial domes and vaulted ceilings of Imperial architecture. For us, it may stand as a symbol for the careful balance of the Epicurean system.

The keystone, or capstone, is clearly supported by the stones on either side. But just as the apex of the span is supported by the lower elements, it supports them also in its turn; the arch, though classified into parts, is in truth a single self-reinforcing whole. The Physics may stand alone, but standing alone it is weakened; and the same with the Canonics. Together they hold up the higher order function of the Ethics, and, so doing, hold each other up as well---and so without the Ethics, the system falls.

Very good! The language requirements for being a good classicist are staggering. Not only Latin and Greek, but English, French, and German are essential for getting a handle on the bulk of the commentary. Then the scripts--Roman and Greek, Linear B, Demotic--and the particular forms that were standard in inscriptions and graffiti.

Thank you, Don! I am of a kind with Shakespeare on this point; "small Latin and less Greek," or so Ben Jonson styles it.

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On the Pleasure of Choice:

That is interesting.

I knew the word αἱρέσεις, "choice", because of its modern English derivative; Heresy. Your translation seems to my ear to invite the comparison, as it was precisely the pleasure of choice that would have been so anathema to later Christians.

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If the Inquiry into Natural Causes (is) Useful in Regard to Moral Philosophy

This is interesting as well, and bears on our most recent and upcoming podcast episodes. We'll have a lot to talk about on this question on Sunday!

Thank you again for your efforts!

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Diogenes. . .waged from the mountain fastness of Oenoanda his own war against the superstitions of his age: the base popular conceptions of the gods, oracles, dreams, and the philosophers' belief in the transmigration of the soul.

The article is worth it for this sentence alone!

4321-15447-1-PB.pdf

Haven't finished this yet, it may give us nothing new. Eikadistes has already done quite a lot in this area.

A minor curiosity;

It appears that Galen wrote several treatise's on Epicurus (almost certainly lost).

Perhaps Don can help with these. I read it (badly) as;

XVI. On the philosophy of Epicurus [anekonta?]

On Epicurus' Eudaimonia and the Happiness of Life

two: On Epicurus [?] Pleasure: [can't make anything of this...something about making and pleasure and imperfection]

On Choosing Pleasure: [?] The usefulness of Physiology in Moral Philosophy

On the (seven books? of the) Sophists

Metrodorus: Epistle to Celsus the Epicurean: Epistle to Pudentianus the Epicurean.

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It’s not my place to point out that the book conveniently disregards a key part of Epicureanism, ataraxia, that urges us to withdraw from the world and to "be indifferent to suffering and death in other people" — a disturbing apathy at odds with much of modernity, not to mention the civic ethics of the early modern period. "De rerum natura" actually proposes an apathetic, anesthetized calm that is as incompatible with empathy, compassion, affection, bodily pleasure, or joyful happiness as it is with pain. Hardly inspiring, and hardly an improvement on, well, anything.

Cassius' recent mention of Stephen Greenblatt has reminded me of one of my favorite hobby-horses---Greenblatt's detractors.

The above quote comes from an article in Vox, written by (of course) a Medievalist.

More:

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I am not a classicist or a philosopher, so I won’t go into how actual philosophers point out that Epicureanism wasn’t anywhere as widespread in the classical world as Greenblatt suggests [...]

Why it should be the province of philosophers to determine this 'fact' is beyond my power to say. But I am interested in the question. How should we go about determining how widespread Epicureanism was in Antiquity?

We know that geographically we can place ancient Epicureanism on three different continents. We can place them as far north and west as Autun in France, and as far south and east as Alexandria. We know from Cicero that the oldest Latin texts in his day were written by Epicureans (Amafinius?)

We know also from Cicero that Epicureanism was popular among the hoi polloi, and from Plotina herself that an Empress of Rome was sympathetic to them. Gravestones, finger rings, busts, papyrus scrolls...is there a way to collate all this information?

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Kalosyni one of the closest threads is this one started by Joshua: Is Pleasure the Only Good?

I can't even make sense of that post, and I wrote it...

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You have every right to call things what you choose, Joshua. But Secular Buddhists will probably continue to identify themselves as Buddhist. In fact those who follow Stephen Batchelor's line will say the Theravada tradition is NOT true Buddhism, that it suffers from translation errors that fundamentally distorted the Buddha's message, and also that the elements you describe such as karma and rebirth and so forth were NOT part of the Buddha's message at all but rather muddied their way into the Buddha's recorded teachings over time. Batchelor suggests this happened as part of an attempt to better conform the new "religion" to the widely accepted and deeply engrained soteriology in India thought.

That is all fair enough, and I have no dog in this fight. I read Buddhism Without Beliefs sometime--oh--ten years ago perhaps. I seem to recall that his views on the prevalence of rebirth in Indian thought at the time of the Buddha were somewhat controversial. But I may be mistaken in that.

What will be really helpful is to have not one outline, but three; Theravadin, Mahayana and Secular. And I will happily yield to whomever shall take the lists (pun intended!)

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Legend tells that Aphrodite, filling her pail at the streams of the Cephisus, blew down upon the land temperate [840] and sweetly blowing breezes. And ever dressing her hair with a fragrant chaplet of roses she sends the Loves to sit at Wisdom's side, [845] joint workers in every kind of excellence.

-Medea, by Euripides

Another connection between Cephisus and Aphrodite.