Posts by Eikadistes

Same here – I'd like to watch it, but Weekdays are busy.

I'm not buying the Anaximander connect, because he wasn't bald:

The Internet also seems to have gained consensus about Pythagoras, but I can't believe that any painter would have chosen to depict Pythagoras without headwear.

The figure's baldness is interesting, and also severely narrows our search.

I only know of several Greek figures that are depicted as balding.

Hippocrates:

Archimedes:

Xenocrates:

There appear to be ten bald, or balding men in the School of Athens. Three of whom are Socrates, Plato, and Diogenes, so that leaves seven unidentified bald men:

a. Screen Shot 2021-05-24 at 5.06.41 PM.png

b. Screen Shot 2021-05-24 at 5.07.56 PM.png

c. Screen Shot 2021-05-24 at 5.08.00 PM.png

d. Screen Shot 2021-05-24 at 5.06.29 PM.png

e. Screen Shot 2021-05-24 at 5.06.13 PM.png

f. Screen Shot 2021-05-24 at 5.06.25 PM.png

g. Screen Shot 2021-05-24 at 5.06.18 PM.png

Nothing jumps out at me. I think though, that we can cross-reference the bald and balding figures, because there are significantly fewer of them, both in the painting, and in the history of philosophers, who generally seem to sport a shaggy hairstyle.

Plus, miscommunication between "someone being honored" versus "someone being derided" would not have been acceptable. Raphael would have made obvious visual choices that would not have confused his audience.

Suspicious that we are so confused at something that would have been obvious.

Perhaps, so obvious that no one cared to write anything down about it.

I'm curious why no one bothered writing any of this down at any point.

Surely bishops and Popes were as curious as we are.

Ah, good point. I see it now:

That hand is grabbing the figure's shoulder.

The figure, themself, is holding each end of the book. You're right.

Quote from Don

I just realized he's not writing in the book, he's reading.

Sure about that?

Screen Shot 2021-05-24 at 3.45.40 PM.png

I think Julius fits right in.

He named himself for Julius Caesar, so between him being the Pope while this was painted, and him being an admirer of Imperial Rome, adorning him with Oak Leaves, placing a Cherub next to him, and having him carrying a book along with Plato, Aristotle, Parmenides, and Heraclitus seems to me to expression of respect or admiration, not derision.

Big picture, I'd be surprised if Julius II weren't in this. He would have been jazzed to have been included amongst the ancient philosophers whom he admired, and Raphael would have had motivation to patronize the Pope by including him among the greats.

JJ may have just solved it.

Visually, placing figures in close proximity is an easy way to demonstrate familiar or intimacy, the prime example of this being the famous teacher-student relationship between Plato and Aristotle, which is the first image to which the eye is drawn.

If this trend were consistent, and Raphael had an understanding of Epicurus' biography, then we'd expect him to be placed nearest to Democritus, followed by Aristotle (I doubt that either Praxiphanes or Nausiphanes would have made the final cut).

He may also have placed him near Pyrrho, ONLY because multiple sources mention Epicurus as having admired or been fascinated by Pyrrho and his Eastern journey, even if he completely disagreed within his findings. I think this is more of a stretch.

If proximity isn't indicating relational intimacy, it may be expressing ideological tension and conflict, in which case, Epicurus should be placed near Plato, and painted in a critical, dismissive, or challenging position, which we do observe in the figure in orange to the left. Scholarship online seems to place Heraclitus and Parmenides in close proximity downstage of Plato and Aristotle, so that further indicates an expression of tension. Though, I'm not convinced of those identities. Still, placement near Plato is appropriate.

Divine Revelation within this context matches Plato's proposition that "learning" is actually an immortal soul's recollection of the Divine Truth which the soul knew prior to being born, but simply forgot after experiencing birth and associating with a human body.

To Augustinians (this might be an over-generalization, as I'm just skimming the schools), Truth is to be remembered through revelation; to Thomists, Truth is to be discovered through observation.

[edit:] I was looking for a specific term, and I just found it: ANAMNESIS . Christian theologians gobbled up Plato's theory of anamnesis and injected it into their belief system as the faithful remembrance of Christ. The Wikipedia entries:

ANAMNESIS (PHILOSOPHY)

"In philosophy, anamnesis (/ˌænæmˈniːsɪs/; Ancient Greek: ἀνάμνησις) is a concept in Plato's epistemological and psychological theory that he develops in his dialogues Meno and Phaedo and alludes to in his Phaedrus. The idea is that humans possess innate knowledge (perhaps acquired before birth) and that learning consists of rediscovering that knowledge from within. Terms that have been used to characterize this concept include Doctrine of Recollection and Doctrine of Reminiscence."

ANAMNESIS (CHRISTIANITY)

"Anamnesis (from the Attic Greek word ἀνάμνησις meaning "reminiscence" or "memorial sacrifice"),^[1] in Christianity, is a liturgical statement in which the Church refers to the memorial character of the Eucharist or to the Passion, Resurrection and Ascension of Christ. It has its origin in Jesus' words at the Last Supper, "Do this in memory of me" (Greek: "τοῦτο ποιεῖτε εἰς τὴν ἐμὴν ἀνάμνησιν", (Luke 22:19, 1 Corinthians 11:24–25). In a wider sense, anamnesis is a key concept in the liturgical theology: in worship the faithful recall God's saving deeds.^[2] This memorial aspect is not simply a passive process but one by which the Christian can actually enter into the Paschal mystery.^[3]"

I like the idea that it is Grape leaves.

Is this figure is an Epicurean, something indicating wine would be appropriate.

It could be Oak as well, signifying the Father God, and the source of Wisdom, thus, reinforcing the divine nature of whatever truth the writer is inscribing, helped by a cherub.

I am surprised that Raphael painted an author, receiving inspiration from a cherub, and chose NOT to identify him as a poet (with Laurel leaves). That may also have been a missed opportunity, and not the best artistic choice that could have been employed.

Or it could be ambivalent. Rather than specifically identifying a "poet", or "defender or Rome", or "brave soldier", it may just indicate "a Roman to the 16th-century mind".

The subject of Divine Revelation is a good way to distinguish the medieval Christian theologies.

(I mis-wrote above: Scholasticism is also Aristotle-influenced)

I think the main thing is the Scholastics and Thomists believed that God provided humanity with practical reason that could be applied to understand God better by studying Nature. Thomas Aquinas' many portraits of him holding animals like Bob Ross expresses this.

So, we can see the influence of Aristotle over Plato, and the rejection of ideas like "knowledge without experience" or "truth without understanding".

I believe ARISTOTLE is carrying his Ethics, an interesting choice since Plato (to the left of Aristotle) is carrying his seminal text of metaphysics, the dialogue Timaeus. Raphael could have chosen to have Aristotle carry a copy of his own Metaphysics, but, instead, has shifted the association of Aristotelian philosophy away from speculative metaphysics and toward practical ethics, thus, Aristotle gesturing away from Plato's Demiurge.

As a general note, blue tones (Aristotle's fabric) tend to represent the concepts of tranquility and grounded-ness, whereas red tones (like pink and orange) indicate romance and passion. This seems like an appropriate difference to point out between Aristotle and Plato: Plato wrote in poetic dialogues versus Aristotle's dry, logical prose. The blue is also complimented by Earth tones, another way for a Renaissance-era artist to distinguish the cultural archetype of Plato's Forms versus Aristotle's Nature.

I believe PLATO is carrying a copy of his dialogue Timaeus where he establishes his theory of the cosmos. The Stanford Encyclopedia provides a helpful summary:

Quote

"In the Timaeus Plato presents an elaborately wrought account of the formation of the universe and an explanation of its impressive order and beauty. The universe, he proposes, is the product of rational, purposive, and beneficent agency. It is the handiwork of a divine Craftsman [...] who, imitating an unchanging and eternal model, imposes mathematical order on a preexistent chaos to generate the ordered universe."

The largest-scale structures of Plato's cosmos were the heavenly bodies and the various levels they inhabited, so his pointing upward no doubt reflects his metaphysics.

He's directly engaging Aristotle to his left (our right), in the middle of the painting (seen elsewhere). This reflects the centrality of Platonic and Peripatetic philosophy to Christian theology. It also reflects the Plato-influence Augustinian and Scholatic schools of theology versus Aristotle-influenced Thomist school of medieval Christian theology.

This seems absolutely characters of SOCRATES both in terms of its coherence with the geometric proportions of his actual bust, as well as the symbolic features of a challenging stare and scowl, expressing what a "gadfly" he was to Athenians.

If I didn't know better, I'd say that stoic MARCUS AURELIUS had his arm around the shoulder of ZENO OF CITIUM, the founder of Stoicism. Perhaps it's even PYRRHO?

Screen Shot 2021-05-23 at 10.50.55 PM.png

At the same time, I think those two characters are also also distant candidates for Lucretius and Epicurus. I'd guess Zeno and Marcus Aurelius, as an impulse.

Without invoking any symbolic imagery, two of this figures SCREAM as being in accordance with two busts that I recognize, immediately.

I don't know of anyone with such a characteristically long, pointed beard as ZENO OF CITIUM. This was a well known bust, and Zeno's features are strong.

Screen Shot 2021-05-23 at 10.42.41 PM.png

The same is true of the wide nose and shaggy face of ANTISTHENES.

Screen Shot 2021-05-23 at 10.43.50 PM.png

In another post, I suppose that the couple pointing to the bald, longe-bearded man in orange strike me as Crates of Thebes and his wife Hipparchia, so the inclusion of Zeno and Antisthenes would strongly indicate that these are Cynics and Stoics.

I'd like to propose that these two characters represent the Cynics CRATES OF THEBES, teacher of the Stoic Zeno of Citium, and his wife HIPPARCHIA OF MARONEIA.

The bald, bearded male in orange standing above them strikes me as being ZENO OF CITIUM, who rose in popularity above his teacher. There is further consistency if we assume the figure in the very back of the row (depicted elsewhere) to be Antisthenes. This entire side represents Cynics and Stoics, if that speculation is accurate.

Laurel wreathes tend to identify poets, so this symbolic allusion would not have been an effective way to express Epicurus: If this Renaissance artist's intention were to depict Epicurus, a symbol of poetry may not have been the first object an artist would have employed to identify an anti-superstitious proto-physicist.

For example: Danté Alighieri is almost exclusively depicted with a laurel wreath on his head. If I the context weren't Athens, I'd say that "Danté" would be a pretty safe guess to identify the figure, especially with the cherub; however, Raphael would have been very familiar with Danté's slender portrait with sharp cheekbones and a pointed chin.

It could be Lucretius: De Rerum Natura was spreading amongst educated circles; Lucretius would have been correctly identified as a "poet", and, symbolically, Raphael would have identified Lucretius as a Roman male, who, by default, are painted without beards when contrasted with Greeks (unless a bust is known like Marcus Aurelius).

It would seem that Lucretius' portrait was, perhaps, more unknown than Epicurus', so Lucretius should be a more likely candidate for the identity of the the "chubby, non-Greek-looking guy" than Epicurus, especially considering that we have a tall, bearded, Greek man with something similar to a bowl cut, painted with a strong brow in the background, who is a much better candidate in all regards for Epicurus.

Though, I'm not sure that the cherub, helping the figure hold up the book is consistent. The cherub, working with a poet to hold an epic would indicate that the poem were divinely inspired. I'm not sure that would have been the right message for a book that opens with a hymn to Venus. Then again, that's the bottom-line of the entire painting: that Greco-Roman pagans were on the right track to truth, but the wrong train.

The identity of this figure will have to cohere with the following imagery: (1) a uniquely chubby character who, (2) is not bearded, (3) is wearing a poet's laurel, (4) their work is being supported by a cherub, and (5) their shoulders are being physically massaged by dark-haired, downward-looking person behind him. The figure is well-fed and tranquil, smiling as a companion massages their shoulders, the very stereotype of a hedonist.

Given my assumption that Raphael didn't know what Lucretius looked like, I think this character, symbolically, in terms of imagery that Renaissance artists were regularly employing to convey meaning, better fits LUCRETIUS than Epicurus.

Even if he had seen the cartoon of Lucretius' profile, it would still have been appropriate to make the choice to remove his beard and add weight to his cheeks, arms, and neck to emphasize the archetype of a Roman Hedonist.