Posts by Eikadistes

Yes, yes, yes, yes, yes!

I am not sure if he would identified as "Epicurean", but I am absolutely convinced that Shakespeare was very familiar with Lucretius De Rerum Natura, and, given the time period, he must have owned one of a privileged number of copies that would have been available at the time.

You nailed the quote from King Lear (I include it in the Hedonicon). He contradicts Christian creation ex nihilo a few times.

In Romeo and Juliet, there are more than a few references to "atomi".

Shakespeare explicitly steals a few lines of Lucretius in Othello, when describing the Pontick Sea.

Those are just a few references, off of the top of my head. I include more in the Hedonicon because, parallel to my interest in philosophy, I spent the better part of a decade as a theatrical performer, and part of my education is in Shakespeare, so having done a number of shows, I am particularly attuned to recognize Shakespearean references, and, as I read Lucretius, I realized that Shakespeare must have been more than a passing fan.

Awesome find, Cyrano !

(Also, in another thread, we should explore the Lucretian influences on Cyrano de Bergerac, whom I think qualifies as an Epicurean).

Quote from BrainToBeing

[legend='Admin Edit','#ad1d28'

So, the question: How does this devotion lead you to life perspectives for today that you could not derive from similar effort to examining the world today?

[...] it is a question about how the philosophical frameworks of two millennia ago are the same or different from today.

For me, the answer is theology.

Regarding physics, we are all (in my not so humble opinion) already Epicureans, whether we realize it or not. As long as we carry universal miniature computers in our pockets that triangulate our positions with respect to the curvature of spacetime, and as long as we are relying on technologies like MRIs to diagnose brain disease, then, without question, we have, as a culture, adopted Indeterministic Atomism.

Regarding epistemology, I make an argument in a paper published by the Society of Friends of Epicurus that suggests that (with our without Epicurus), we would still be navigating the waters of reality with raw sensations, with sensual impressions, and with a sense of feeling. Our scientific enterprise is fundamentally grounded in Empiricism: https://epicureandatabase.wordpress.com/2020/01/17/on-…leasure-wisdom/

Regarding ethics, we might (culturally) sway between uncompromising declarations of moral purity and fleeting devotion to popular virtues, but, at the end of the day, whether it's national defense or just a consumer trying to live on a budget, we are pursuing the pleasant life. We might be influenced by Puritans, but even the Puritans had to submit to the natural will of Winter that required an ethics of Consequentialism.

Theology, however, was a chasm for me, and the teachings of Epicurus provided me with the tools I needed to cross that chasm (if you'll excuse the clunky metaphor). For most of my life, I was, first and foremost, a critic of Christianity; by extension, Abrahamic religion; and, specifically (as I came to find) a critic of the very unique proposition of an immanent, benevolent, omnipotent, omniscient creator. Overall, I identified as an atheist.

Through a study of Epicurean Philosophy, I came to acknowledge that the human impulse to practice piety is natural, and that the idealization of role models as deities is an equally natural practice that we observe in disconnected human societies. As a result, my position of atheism only really addresses the Judeo-Christian-Islamic god, but failed to engage the idea of non-Immanent, non-Creator (and other conceptions).

So, without Epicurus, I would still be a critical atheist that reduced anyone's expression of religiosity to a delusion of the mind, or an uneducated misunderstanding of psychology. Now, I accept that theism (when grounded in atomism) is a perfectly coherent and useful position.

Quote from Eggplant Wizard

I'd be interested to see the evidence for a direct link from Vedanta to neoplatonism. I am skeptical but all ears.

Plotinus studied under Ammonius Saccas, whose name possibly suggests that he originated from the Shakya clan (from which Siddhartha Guatama originated seven centuries earlier). If he was not literally a member of the Shakya clan (modern-day Nepal), his biography indicates that he was subject to the philosophies of the Classical Period of India, between the Maurya and Gupta Empires (elsewhere called the "Golden Age of Hinduism"). According to Porphyry, "From [his twenty-eight year] that day [Plotinus] stayed continually with Ammonius and acquired so complete a training in philosophy that he became eager to make acquaintance with the Persian philosophical discipline and that prevailing among the Indians." From this, I expect that he would have at least some familiarity with the Upanishads and some exposure to either orthodox or heterodox Indian philosophies.

It is still somewhat speculative, but he was at the right place at the right time. The attestation might be fragmentary, but the consistency of the ideas, and the coherence between concepts like the The One (seemingly Brahman), Henosis (seemingly Moksha), the framing of evil as ignorance, the goal as liberation over ignorance and enlightenment over darkness through the light vis-a-vis truth vis-a-vis goodness ... it sounds alarmingly similar to the extent that I think that Ammonius Saccas and his followers did the same thing that Pyrrho did to earlier "gymnosophists". (As it seems to me, Pryhho adopted the philosophy of Ajñāna (or his understanding and/or adaptation of Ajñāna and others) and re-branded it at Pyrrhonian Skepticism.)

One thing that left an impression on me in recent research was the similarity (and coherence) between Pythagoreanism and neo-Pythagoreanism, Platonism and neo-Platonism, Gnosticism, Heterodox Christianity, Orthodox Christianity, and the emerging schools of Hindu Vedanta. The similarities are not simply parallels between compatible traditions. Rather, there are direct historical links between each tradition that lead me to believe that it is educationally helpful to group these Idealisms into a single branch that considers numbers and logic to be more real than food and water. For example, the first neo-Platonists were either Indian "gymnosophists" themselves, or they were the direct students of Indian gurus. It seems to me that Vedanta is directly responsible for the resurgence of Platonism as a competitor against Christianity and Mithraism in the 2nd-4th-centuries.

Quote from BrainToBeing

What happens if you interpret "Live Unnoticed" within the framework of life experience of Epicurus? Is it to live like the wild flower of the meadow that strives to grow gracefully, a source of pollen for a visiting bee? Is it to live like a tree of the forest that gathers sun, gives shade to its neighbors, and nurtures a place for growth? Is it to live like the quiet craftsman who builds a home for a family? We can imagine many ways where being unnoticed was quiet strength. Could he have meant that?

One story about Epicurus that contextualizes his warnings against participating in government is tempered by his treatment of Mithres. After the move to Lampsacus, Epicurus befriended (correct me if any of these details are inaccurate, this is a ball-park reflection and I might be missing up some of my facts, but...) a man named Mithres, who served on a royal court in modern-day Turkey. Fast-foward to Epicurus' Garden in Athens. Mithres becomes relegated to a political refugee. Notes are exchanged, and Mithres is set to flee to Athens and seek asylum in the Garden. However, as soon as he arrived, he was arrested as a fugitive. Epicurus discovers this, and immediately sends Metrodorus to the jail to post his bail. Mithres briefly lives in the the garden, until he could preserve an independent life for himself without fear of being re-arrested as a fugitive of a State.

I think that recommendation to lathē biosas is occasionally misinterpreted as being a complete withdrawal from all forms of human society so completely that they are unwilling to take a stand when an existential threat arises due to politics. Contrary to that, Epicurus invited slaves to learn in his Garden, he went out of his way to personally pay for the freedom of political refugees, and he offered amnesty to international fugitives. When moving to Lampsacus, he immediately tried to befriend members of government to ease scrutiny on his tradition, and it worked. I think lathē biosas might be better seen to us in the modern era as something like ... "keep your head low and your mouth shut", which follows Epicurus' proposition that the Sage may occasionally break the law, but only if doing so improves their circumstances and they cannot be convicted.

To wrap this back around to the main topic, one-way-or-the-other, lathē biosas is a good, and, in particular, an instrumental good, but not, itself, the goal, which is resolutely pleasure.

Quote from Peter Konstans

Would you consider authoring an essay or maybe a literary letter for inclusion in future editions?

I added a 3,000-word foreword at the beginning (it's part of the free preview on Amazon and I also included the preview on Academia.edu), but I would definitely like to expand.

Quote from Peter Konstans

What would a 'holy book' of Epicureanism look like and what would it contain other than the letters of Epicurus and the poem of Lucretius?

I believe it would look something like this:

https://www.amazon.com/Hedonicon-Holy…s/dp/B0CNTN6KH6

I aim to include Philodemus' prose and Diogenes of Oinoanda's etching in future editions.

Quote from Cassius

I now have my printed copy of Nate's new book and I want to second the praise in the posts above. The images included with the book (Nate's wife art plus the timeline and map) are a great bonus. It's well organized and has a very good introductory essay. This is quality work and it's great to see Nate take the initiative to do this!

Thank you for the praise! I appreciate all of your support. There are certainly places I would like further develop, but I am pleased with the First Edition and I hope others find it to be a useful reference book.

Thanks also, Bryan for the Amazon review. They always help!

Quote from Pacatus

Eikadistes

I also really like Genevra's portrait of "Epicurus in the Garden" on page 114 of your book (paperback version arrived today! ). Any chance you could add that one to the thread here? Many thanks!

Welcome @UFO and I dig the name. I invite you to some of our threads about the gods and extra-terrestrials.

Quote from Pacatus

Eikadistes

Just for curiosity, is the red fruit in "Epicurus Dines" pomegranate (perhaps) or tomatoes or ... ?

Tomatoes would be anachronistic, but -- as a poet of sorts -- I completely affirm anachronisms as a valid and vital part of artistic license! What is important is what the images (and, in poetry, also rhythms and word-sounds) evoke.

I recall Gen mentioning to me that she leaves it up to the observer. It is definitely not tomatoes, and I'm glad you brought that up, because I only learned as an adult that tomatoes were not introduced to Europe until 1521.

Quote from Nate

Quote from Cassius

That looks great Nate! I don't see a button where a printed version can be purchased but I presume that you are working on that?

I am, indeed! There was an additional issue with the printing after I received it, so I unpublished the paperback and am working with Amazon to fix the formatting issues. I am hoping to resolve it today, if not by this weekend.

I am pleased to announce that the paperback version of The Hedonicon is now available:

https://www.amazon.com/dp/B0CNTN6KH6

Epicurus by YouriAlden (2013)

Epicurus Coloring Book (?)

Epicurus from Ward and Lock's Illustrated History of the World (1882)

Epicurus Greek Philosopher Date by Mary Evans (2018)

Epicurus Laughing by SimoneDebuvua

Epicurus New Yorker Caricature

Epicurus NFT by Greek Philosophers Club

Epicurus Vector Sketch Portrait by Ivona17

Epicurus, Pemikir Kebahagiaan yang Tak Bisa Dibiarkan (indonesian)

Thinker Epicurus in Tamil

Epicure in Charcoal by splatteredvenue (2007)

Epicure Part 2 by splatteredvenue (2007)

Epicurus (wrongly titled Plato) by Rubens in 1638 (BM Asset 876575001)

Epicurus & Seneca by Guia do Estudante

Epicurus by Evi Sarantea (2012)

Epicurus by fogbird

Epicurus by Gijs Kast Huijgen

Epicurus By Granger

Epicurus by Lucy Calder

Epicurus by Martin Rowson

I have to defer to the recommendation of Diogenes of Oinoanda who wrote that "the statues of the gods should be made genial and smiling, so that we may smile back at them, rather than be afraid of them."

Quote from Kalosyni

I often wish that the imagery of Epicurus had more "warmth"

We felt the same way.

Quote from Don

Quote from Pacatus

NOTE: I had a philosopher friend, who did his dissertation on the Nicomachean Ethics, who insisted the best rendering of eudaimonia was "flourishing" -- but that strikes me as even more problematic than "happy."

Fully agree. "Flourishing" seems ... wrong? Merriam-Webster defines "flourishing" as

"marked by vigorous and healthy growth; very active and successful."

Your "happy well-being" is better, for sure. I lean more in the direction of "satisfied well-being" or "contented well-being." To be even more literal, I might suggest "to be in good spirits," but that might be taking the linguistic pun too far.

It was impressed upon me (by Peripatetics) in college that "flourishing" was the only acceptable definition of εὐδαιμονία. One of the professors of the department described Aristotle as "the smartest person who ever lived." The department head was particularly found of Alasdair MacIntyre and assigned us his writings.

I tend to take the word as meaning "good-spirited-ness", in which case, "happiness" is a reasonable translation.

Quote from Bryan

Quote from Don

Is the script of Tengwar actually printed in the books and legible?

It sure is! The first half of an old book I self-published is a collection lyrical poetry from three albums I wrote:

The Book of SH∆ZD∆R

The Book of Shazdar is a mythopoetic manifesto of lyrical poetry, supplemented with an extended reflection of art, music, and philosophy. It is organized into…

www.academia.edu

Those lyrics are in the English language that uses a modified version of Tolkien's Tengwar script for English instead of the Roman characters (that, for example, limits our ability to express phonemes like "th", "sh", and "ch"). There's a whole rabbit hole down which to fall ... I'm a big fan, and Tengwar got me into linguistics in the first place. I'm a BIG fan.

Quote from Bryan

This is great. I see that for classical Attic he is recommending light aspirated stops, which is excellent. This chart shows clearly what I think is one of the more complicated parts of pronunciation.

One thing about ancient Greek are the aspirations. I took Phi or "ph" for granted as /f/ like "philosophy" when it would have been pronounced more like the /pʰ/ in "pot" or "pond". The same is true of Theta or "th" which we sometimes pronounce like "thorn" and "thistle", but would have been pronounced more like the /tʰ/ in "top".

Bryan I'm not sure if you're interested, but I published a little Tolkien project a while ago and this chart was one of the key things that came out of it. It helped me to understand phonology better with a visual map.

We're dressing up for the occasion.