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Posts by Eikadistes

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  • Using New Technology To Produce More Effective Memes

    • Eikadistes
    • November 27, 2023 at 6:23 PM
    Quote from Cassius

    In addition to the new graphics that Nate's wife has been producing, I see that Bryan has produced some new work that apparently also uses new technology.

    Just to be clear, Gen (my wife) did not use any kind of an image generator or an AI-based tool on her neo-Classical adaptions that she is selling through her Etsy store. Each of those images took her days-to-weeks of editing using professional applications for which she has acquired professional licensing. She has been working as a self-employed photographer and graphic designer for over a decade (long before AI-based web apps were hosted), and a lot of what you see in her art are adaptations from models she has shot and pictures we own using Adobe Photoshop and Illustrator. All of this art took a lot of time, and, also, investments in materials, tools, and education. One danger of using AI apps to produce art is that the users do not have any initial investment in either materials education, and every other kind of artist has a big expense at the beginning of their work just to get started in the first place.

    Quote from Don

    I am not a fan of AI generated artwork for various reasons. Using "tools" is one thing. Plugging in text and getting AI to spit out an "original" artwork is something else.

    Agreed whole-heartedly (and the recent issues brought up due to the Writer's Strike can help inform us about the dangers of infringement). In bums me out as an songwriter and instrumentalist that other performers can gain notoriety as "musicians", when they neither play an instrument (including vocals), nor write lyrical poetry, nor compose melodies, and cannot perform live music without relying on engineers to process their sounds. In that same light, it is a bummer that my wife can spend months designing a Hollywood-authentic costume, but doesn't get as much attention as some amateur model who purchases all of their pieces online and produces nothing of their own but selfies; likewise, it is even more frustrating for her as a visual artist to have her work quietly appropriated without accountability.

    I can say from experience that there are a lot of really excellent artists out there that are hungry for work, and will provide the kinds of images that we crave for a fair commission. AI can be helpful for inspiration, but there are other avenues that would actually lead to much higher quality art than what even AI can produce.

    I think that the most responsible option would be to commission artists to do this work so that the actual creator can be appropriately credited. Otherwise, we really have no idea who is personally responsible for the images from which the Generators are taking. It risks completely robbing artists of their agency and limited their reach.

    Imagine if you could just write, "Give me a 3-minute love song in 4/4 time, like the Beatles and Moody Blues" and in a few seconds, a future music generator could do what takes me months of work, months of recording, editing, balancing, re-recording ... employing the decades of practice and rehearsal and failure and marginal success, and thousands of hours of studying and rehearsal and applying trigonometric functions to balance the gain structure of multiple tracks, and quitting out of frustration with digital tools, and then returning with the constant, obsessive curiosity of an artist, and dozens of shows, and many of them were failures, and struggles with self-esteem, and personal victories in being brave enough to share your skill. All that persistence and struggle is utterly absent from AI-produced material.

    AI could completely eliminate a company's obligation to compensate their talent, so I think if anything is going to be represented as being the production of a studio, business (or a website), the actual artist needs to be credited, and AI limits our ability to do that. For example, since my wife's images are public, AI-generators will see her #Epicurus #Hashtags and pull from her art (due to the limited number of Epicurean images out there). We have absolutely no way of knowing which generators are now using her images to inform their reproductions.

  • Nate's Personal Outline

    • Eikadistes
    • November 27, 2023 at 5:04 PM

    I included my Personal Outline in the Foreword of the First Edition of The Hedonicon, but I wanted to share it here, as well:

    ETHIKON (ethics) — HEDONISM (“HΔONHN EINAI TEΛOΣ” X.11) “Pleasure is the Goal...”

    PHYSIKON (physics) — ATOMISM (“TO ΠAN EΣTI ΣΩMATA KAI KENON” X.47) “The universe is bodies and void...”

    KANONIKON (canonics) — SENSUALISM (“THΣ AΛHΘEIAΣ EINAI TAΣ AIΣΘHΣEIΣ” X.31) “The truth is the sensations...”

    Epicurus teaches that an unceasing study of nature (ΦYΣIOΛOΓIAΣ o r physiologías) is integral to achieving the ultimate goal (TEΛOΣ or télos) of sustaining an existence that is both blessed (MAKAPIOΣ or makarios) and incorruptible (AΦΘAΡTΟΣ or aphthartós). His teachings aim to dispel the universal fear (ΦOBOΣ or phóbos) of death (ΘANATOΣ or thanatos) by empowering each of us to secure a pleasant life (BIOΣ orbíos) without the troubles (ΠPAΓMATA or pragmata) of excessive anger (ΟΡΓH or orgḗ), confusion (TAPAXH or tarakhḗ), sickness ( or ), and sadness (ΛYΠOYMENON or lypoúmenon); he hopes for joy (XAPA or khara) and good cheer (EYΦPOΣYNH or eùphrosúnē). The Patron of Pleasure prescribes a practice for maximizing the serenity (AΠONIA or aponía) of the flesh (ΣAPΞ or sarx) and for magnifying the tranquility (ATAPAΞIA or ataraxía) of the mind (ΔIANOIAΣ or dianoias).

    Epicurus teaches that “Truth” (AΛHΘEIA or Alḗtheia) is a true belief (ΔOΞA or dóxa) about the nature (ΦYΣIΣ or phúsis) of “The All” (TO ΠAN or to pan) or “the universe”. He rationalizes that we live in an infinite void (KENOΣ or kenós) containing a boundless (AΠEIPOΣ or âpeiros) plethora of imperishable particles (ATOMOI or atomoí) that forever fall through the eternal heavens (OYPANOY or oúranoû) endlessly enlacing to form innumerable worlds (KOΣMOI or kósmoi) and countless creatures (ZῼΩN or zṓiōn). He recognizes a universal standard (KANΩN or kanṓn) of truth that includes [1] Sensations (AIΣΘHΣIΣ or aísthēsis), [2] Impressions (ΠPOΛEΠΣIΣ or prólēpsis), and the criterion of [3] Feeling (ΠAΘH or pathē) that discerns The Good (TAΓAΘΩN or Tagathōn) of pleasure from the evil (KAKΩN or kakôn) of pain (AΛΓOS or algos).

    Epicurus teaches a philosophy (ΦIΛOΣOΦIA o r philosophíā) that exercises frank criticism (ΠAPPHΣIA or parrhesía) and prioritizes natural (ΦYΣIKAI or phusikai) and necessary (ANAΓKAIAI o r anankaîai) desires (EΠIΘYMIΩN or epithymiôn) above vain beliefs (ΚEΝΗΝ ΔΟΞAΝ or kenḕn dóxas) based upon comparative analysis (ΣYMMETPHΣIΣ or symmétrēsis). He contends that the virtues (APETAI or aretaí), including self-sufficiency (AYTAPKEIA or aûtarkeia), security (AΣΦAΛEIA or asphaleia), honor (KAΛΩΣ or kalôs), courage (ΘAPPEIN or tharreîn), and prudence (ΦPONHΣIΣ or phrónēsis) are instrumental to a life of happiness (EYΔAIMONIA or eudaimoníā), for without virtue, there can be no pleasure. Tranquility is the greatest product of justice (ΔIKAIOΣ or díkaios) and security is the greatest product of friendship (ΦIΛIA or philía, the greatest pleasure).

    Epicurus teaches that the spiritual practices of gratitude (EYXAPIΣTIA or eukharistía), faith (ΠIΣTIΣ or pístis), and piety (OΣIOTHTOΣ or hosiótētos) provide psychological value to the mortal soul (ΨYXH or psykhḗ). He insists upon the remembrance (MNHMH or mnḗmē) that the soul dies with the body; we only live once; no one is given life to own; we all hold but a lease. The future is neither ours, nor is it wholly not ours, thus, we should neither count on it with despotic certainty, nor abandon hope for it out of spite. Epicurus encourages us to embrace the belief that a god (ΘEOΣ or theós) has better things to do than stage the petty human drama. The divine nature (ΘEIA ΦYΣIΣ or theía phúsis), being sublime (YΨHΛON or hypsēlon), marvelous (AΦPAΣTON or aphraston), dignified (ΣEMNOTATON or semnótaton), and blameless (IΛEΩN o r hīĺ eōn) would never be burdened with the responsibilities of reviewing prayers (EYXAI or eukhaí) and distributing pain, nor trouble itself to supervise the wind, nor bother to regulate the rain, nor suffer the sting of an endless string of cries and complaints.

    No deity is needed to know the nature of things, only the subtle science that observes the stirrings of the swerving (ΠΑΡΕΓΚΛΙTIKEN or parenklitikên) firstlings, the primal seeds of substance, the basic, begetting bodies, those smallest, oldest, fastest, strongest motes of matter.

  • THE HEDONICON (or The Holy Book of Epicurus)

    • Eikadistes
    • November 23, 2023 at 9:29 AM
    Quote from Cassius

    That looks great Nate! I don't see a button where a printed version can be purchased but I presume that you are working on that?

    I am, indeed! There was an additional issue with the printing after I received it, so I unpublished the paperback and am working with Amazon to fix the formatting issues. I am hoping to resolve it today, if not by this weekend.

  • THE HEDONICON (or The Holy Book of Epicurus)

    • Eikadistes
    • November 20, 2023 at 12:44 AM

    I’ve thought this for a long time now (and I know I’m not alone, as this was recently, yet again, serendipitously discussed in another thread) that we need “our own ‘Bible’” … well, had to start somewhere. So I've been building this, and, here's a start:

    https://www.amazon.com/dp/B0CNJ1ST4B

    THE HEDONICON (Twentiers’ Version)

    It includes my personal translation of the KD, free translations (from the old, British boys of the 19th-century) of the Epistles and Sayings, as well as Munro's version of De Rerum Natura, an old translation of Philodemus' Epigrams., along with a brief foreword, pages of notes formatted as annotations, all of Gen's portraits, and some of the other, supplemental material I've been developing, including the timeline, map, and some other graphics that reinforce the theme of being a Holy Book, something that aims to mimic an Illustrated Version of the Bible.

    I made it available through Amazon Kindle, and I am having paperback copies made, mostly for myself, and I want to give one to my Mum, but I also have a few friends that are interested, so it's up there for the moment. I am investigating other ways to share it, as most platforms don't support files as large as the Hedonicon (due to the pictures and graphics), and editing brings up additional questions as well.

    Why ‘Hedonicon’?

    The early Christians had an Evangelikon (book of Gospels) and Apostolikon (book of Epistles) that comprised the early New Testament. I believe that our equivalent would be a Hedonikon (book of pleasure) … or perhaps even Hedonomikon (book of the law of pleasure … but that’s a little more aimed at pop culture). I would think it to include works of, at least, Epicurus, and, hopefully, Lucretius, Philodemus, and, with luck, the two Diogenes’, among others. I imagine that every Epicurean Garden would have their own Version of the Hedonicon (or some fascimile thereof), and that congregations of Epicurean Gardens may publish universal Hedonicons per groups arranged according to recognition of coherent texts.

    Why ‘Twentiers' Version'?

    I liked that moon thing I made. It's a nice logo for something on which I wanted to make a mark. (Totally, keep using it, and play with it and do what you like it. It's just an idea; and an icon, like a cross nor a Jesus fish, so, it's not an official registered trademark, just an informal identifier.)

    Anyway, I mention in the foreword of my ‘Twentiers’ Version’ that I hope to inspire future Hedoniconae in the same way that the early Christian heretic Marcion created the first ‘New Testament’ that become the standard upon which future versions of the Bible were built, each one, expanding upon the core collection of Marcion’s texts (Christian heresy fascinates me, and Philodemus seems to mention an Epicurean analogue against Rhodians).

    There is a long to-do list that includes creating translations for Diogenes of Oinoanda and the bulk of Philodemus, both of which are currently beyond my means, and it would be great to compile a complete, unique, coherent translation (like the New Revised Standard Version of the Bible).

    I imagine further polishing the Twentiers’ Version into a Second Edition that would include other contributors who might care to share their translations to the aesthetic presentation of the Twentiers' Version. Don, I welcome future developments if you would be interested in contributing any parts of your translations of the Epistle To Menoikeus, Sayings of the Sage, or Vatican Sayings to a Second Edition of the ‘Twentiers’ Version’, or, for that matter, working with me to produce collaborations. This is all for the sake of making something interesting, and your scholarship has always inspired me. I meant to put together a more local project initially, but with my wife's images and some advancements in formatting as well as some old work that finally came together, some new possibilities emerged, and I started playing around with publishing.

    That equally goes for everyone (if my format so inspires you) including those of you who lean toward Latin overe Greek. Again, there is a long to-do list, dominated by Philodemus, that I cannot hope to accomplish without assistance from many others.

    EQUALLY so, as I try to mention as often as possible elsewhere, I think it would be quite excellent if this inspired others to create their Version(s) of ‘a Hedonicon’. So, if, Cassius , if any members might be interested in developing an EpicureanFriends.com Version (for example), I am happy to lend whichever parts of my own format and structure and commentary works for someone else, and some of the artistic contributions therein.

    I will unfortunately be inordinately busy in the next few weeks, (I’m sure I’m not alone, there), but I wanted to get the snowball rolling, just to share my intentions and see if these anyone would like to contribute to and/or develop these projects. I do not know when I will revisit the polishing and expansion of the Twentiers' Version into a Second Edition, and it is not currently a top-priority for me.

    Until, then, Happy Eikas! <3

  • So You Want To Learn Ancient Greek Or Latin?

    • Eikadistes
    • November 19, 2023 at 9:28 AM
    Quote from Don

    Many are the same or at least similar. It just takes practice. Here's one to decipher:

    Ι ΚΑΝ ΡΕΑΔ ΓΡΕΕΚ ΛΕΤΤΕΡΣ. ΛΟΟΚ ΑΤ ΘΑΤ!

    A fun side-effect I experienced learning the ancient Greek alphabet is that I suddenly became capable of reading all of the road signs I see on TV when they're covering anything happening in Russia or Ukraine. :thumbup:

    ... don't have a clue what they mean, but I can at least sound them out!

  • Renderings of Epicurean Philosophers by Genevra Catalano (2022-2023)

    • Eikadistes
    • November 16, 2023 at 5:58 PM
    Quote from Don

    Eikadistes : I'm trying out the older Epicurus as a profile pic, but if you'd rather not have that done, I'm happy to switch back to the 20er moon. Just say the word.

    I didn't actually answer your question: PLEASE represent the rendered Epicurus as my wife has shared with me. Personally, I have spent some time staring at these images over a few beers and our notes, and wondered what our guy, here, would have told me in my times of troubles. Maybe "Let it be". He, at least, would have liked 'Abbey Road'. :P

  • Renderings of Epicurean Philosophers by Genevra Catalano (2022-2023)

    • Eikadistes
    • November 16, 2023 at 5:57 PM
    Quote from Don

    Eikadistes : I'm trying out the older Epicurus as a profile pic, but if you'd rather not have that done, I'm happy to switch back to the 20er moon. Just say the word.

    As always Don I am particularly encouraged by the confidence you have shown in me and my flippant contributions, and, very soon, I mean to have a conversation with you about either (a) contributing to the "Twentiers' Version' of the Second Edition of the soon-to-be-released Hedonicon, or (b) helping with what I am sure Cassius will consider as being the the First Version of the Hedonicon (which will require dedicated translators) for EpicureanFriends.com, and/or (c) seeding an entirely unique publication from which we can all benefit. I mean to be a "Marcion" for our cause.

  • Renderings of Epicurean Philosophers by Genevra Catalano (2022-2023)

    • Eikadistes
    • November 16, 2023 at 5:50 PM
    Quote from Cassius

    Do I detect that that Lucretius looks a little like Nate? :)

    Amazon needed a recent image, and I know I'm a tad anti-social, despite my background, explicitly, in performance art, and shameless self-promotion, and I'm a bizarre bit of juxtaposition between being a studio musician and public performer and a reclusive and predictably confrontational manic-depressive, but, for now, I'm proud to submit the First Edition of the HEDONICON .... I'll share very soon, perhaps November Eikas, if Amazon works, with extensive commentary to which I will contribute to the post that justifies what I've been up to ... but anyway, Cheers, friends.

  • Renderings of Epicurean Philosophers by Genevra Catalano (2022-2023)

    • Eikadistes
    • November 16, 2023 at 2:10 PM

    I also invoke the name of Elli with a request for a frank critique of my wife's insistence (who is predominately Italian, Sicilian, and Lebanese in her background) on giving the men brow, beard, and hair structures (geographic phenotypes) that are meant to compliment of Greek friends and the physical affectations of Mediterranean peoples, as opposed to the heavily stylized, and somewhat, technologically limited expressions of hair as depicted by Romans.

    (I made my own rendering of Epicurus, and he looked a bit like Saint Nick, blue eyes and all, per Gen 8o ).

  • Renderings of Epicurean Philosophers by Genevra Catalano (2022-2023)

    • Eikadistes
    • November 16, 2023 at 2:07 PM

    So, I'm just saying, my wife is a Queen and an enigma and I love everything she does.

    In *particular*, the portraits of Epicurus really fill me with a unique, personal emotion.

  • Renderings of Epicurean Philosophers by Genevra Catalano (2022-2023)

    • Eikadistes
    • November 16, 2023 at 2:06 PM

    I appreciate that, tremendously, and will happily forward those accolades to Gen. Thanks, Pacatus.

    I feel like she fills the gap of a good image of Lucretius we have all been lacking.

    In particular, I stare in the eyes of Epicurus (rendered from *my personal photograph of a Vatican bust of Epicurus* when I was there in 2010, totally prior to my acceptance of Epicurus as my guide and Hegemon) and find a sense of confidence and comfort and peace and inspiration, which I imagine my friends of Christ see in their Savior.

  • Renderings of Epicurean Philosophers by Genevra Catalano (2022-2023)

    • Eikadistes
    • November 16, 2023 at 11:54 AM
    Quote from Cassius

    Do I detect that that Lucretius looks a little like Nate? :)

    :love: :saint:

    I'll take that as a holy compliment! (but I don't think so) :P ... I can't grow a beard like that ;(

    Lucretius rendering comes from the following bust around the Villa Borghese in Roma:

  • Renderings of Epicurean Philosophers by Genevra Catalano (2022-2023)

    • Eikadistes
    • November 16, 2023 at 10:42 AM
    Quote from Nate

    I'll upload these to the gallery, too.

    They're a little too big for the gallery, but let me know if you cannot access them here.

  • Renderings of Epicurean Philosophers by Genevra Catalano (2022-2023)

    • Eikadistes
    • November 16, 2023 at 10:30 AM

         

    Epicurus Middle-Aged Epicurus Elderly

        

    Metrodorus Hermarchus

        

    Philodemus Lucretius

    I'll upload these to the gallery, too. These are my wife's interpretations of the characters about which I have been telling her. Among other points, she maintains that all of the Greek men would have had much less manicured hair than depicted in statues, and the same for their beards, except Philodemus, in particular, whom she demands was a particularly attractive man, being a foreigner who made friends with Roman aristocrats. She also made some slight alterations based on common features found in those families that have traditionally inhabited Mytilene, versus Northern Turkey, versus ancient Syria, versus ancient Roman, and then cross-referenced with the available busts that we have. She made a lot of artistic choices to try to incorporate their personalities or dispositions, so I hope you find them to be entertaining and provocative. Cheers!

    Images

    • LucretiusRenderedGC.jpg
      • 237.23 kB
      • 900 × 1,200
      • 6
  • "The Inheritance" by Genevra Catalano (2023)

    • Eikadistes
    • November 11, 2023 at 4:08 PM

    https://www.etsy.com/listing/1608715339/the-inheritance-2022-print?click_key=224dbb09a3284d47f07030633e12556a38d62cf1%3A1608715339&click_sum=ece368bd&ref=shop_home_active_1&fbclid=IwAR3Lh9Qxn5s5JMggfrfkOtIyMb3qEVvU24YlJEcRY8DCfmreicmXVZR-czY

    Many of you know that I have spent a fair part of the last 8 years or so making memes and images as a product of my Epicurean study. To be frank, the only reason I had (as a musician and writer) the ability to make cheap, visual designs was because of the professional subscriptions my wife had to the digital tools she required to perform her job as a graphic designer, photo editor, photographer proper, and costume designer.

    For many years now, her visual art has evolved toward the genre of neo-Classicism, and she has contributed to our artistic community through portraits of friends, family, and commissioned acquaintances, as a development from her productions as a seamstress and editor. Her approach is eclectic and relies of a variety of material sources, including her own photographic library as a photographer and, as well as her imagination and mouse.

    And she nearly died in April.

    After years of parallel projects, and collaboration with my musical creations, she has found inspiration in the stories I have shared with her of Epicurus, and my project of providing an Epicurean alternative to Christian and Platonic expressions of art, some of the seeds of our tribe have come to fruition in her mind, and lead to the budding of Epicurean art, in the imaginative, dramatic style of oil-based neo-Classicism, through an analogue hand.

    The other two project I shared were quiet experiments she explored, unbeknownst to me. This one is a proper creation in her preferred style. She has been recently inspired by my manic rants about the Epicurean rock against the Deluge of mystical confusion, and based on my recent study, I have contributed some names and narratives to her designs of our Hegemon and the historical events to which her comported.

    We imagine, as Epicurus dies, bravely, willfully, boldly, having already lost hist oldest friends, Polyainos and Metrodoros, having lost his parents, and his deeply devoted brothers, and those members of his generation (who would have, proverbially, been enjoying Beatles and the Stones), while they rest were left with the generation of Leonteus' and Themistas, and Leontion, the widow of Metrodoros (who would all have been listening to Pink Floyd and Zeppelin in the name of the classical jams), and the children of his non-Epicurean friends, among his devoted disciples, and slaves (whose lives deserve greater light), including the future publisher and philosopher proper, Mys, a philosopher, teaching, and publishing in his own Right, and, as we imagine, Demetria, the alleged partner of Hermarchus, who is, otherwise, unattested in Epicurus' final two writings, thus, leading to this unique scene where Mys documents the official transition of the Garden from Epicurus' ownership, as documented by his beloved, trusty, philosophical companion, to Amynomachus, who stares, uncomfortably, not an Epicurean, but a grandson of the tradition that raised him beneath the wing of natural confidence and friendship and kindness and forgiving and empowerment, in overwhelming, youthful contemplation, as the wise Demetria, having loved Epicurus, having known him for years, living in the Garden with Hermarchus, though his attention is temporarily elsewhere, having inherited the duties of the Scholarch as the Hegemon ... we witness the Savior suffering from explicit endocrine failure (most likely, days before reaching sepsis and organ failure), an excruciating, untreatable condition that leads to certain death, which was met, fearlessly, with intention and purpose ... we notice Demetria, who looks onward, remembering the Second Kuria Doxa, that her wise friend has only ever guided her to light, herself, making peace with the shadows of the painting: death sucks. She is fighting the tears of losing a healthy part of her life that deserves immortal glory. Perhaps Timocrates sits in the perspective of the viewer of this work. Perhaps Timocrates, as was the case with the inheritors of Epicurus property, were economically bound to their daily jobs as non-Epicureans, yet devoted to the natural friendship that inspires them to honor Hermarkhos and the future ... the Garden of Epicurus is a collection of seeds, planted by faithful compatriates, who will never see them bloom, struggling through the arresting melancholy of the death of friends, fighting, spiritually, to remember of older brother's teachings, that we deserve joy, and that The Dead might bet upon memorial joy. We commemorate The Inheritance as might the Christians' "Annunciation" and "Adoration" and "Ascension".

  • Augustine of Hippo, The City of God, XI.5; & Theophilus of Antioch, To Autolycus, III.6

    • Eikadistes
    • November 10, 2023 at 10:06 AM
    Quote from Don

    https://ccel.org/ccel/schaff/npnf102/npnf102.iv.XI.5.html

    Quote

    Next, we must see what reply can be made to those who agree that God is the Creator of the world, but have difficulties about the time of its creation, and what reply, also, they can make to difficulties we might raise about the place of its creation. For, as they demand why the world was created then and no sooner, we may ask why it was created just here where it is, and not elsewhere. For if they imagine infinite spaces of time before the world, during which God could not have been idle, in like manner they may conceive outside the world infinite realms of space, in which, if any one says that the Omnipotent cannot hold His hand from working, will it not follow that they must adopt Epicurus’ dream of innumerable worlds? with this difference only, that he asserts that they are formed and destroyed by the fortuitous movements of atoms, while they will hold that they are made by God’s hand, if they maintain that, throughout the boundless immensity of space, stretching interminably in every direction round the world, God cannot rest, and that the worlds which they suppose Him to make cannot be destroyed...

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_City_of_God

    It still surprises me that we can talk about (and scholars talk about, and the ancients talk about) the demise of the Epicurean school... and yet Augustine of Hippo (354-430 CE), writing in the 400s CE, can *still* be railing against Epicurus and his philosophy. As Joshua has pointed out, Augustine wrote that the ashes of Stoicism and Epicureanism are so cold that not a single spark can be struck from them against Christianity (Ep. 118.12). And yet, he feels compelled to include a dig against them in his City of God. Was he trying to convince others or himself that the Epicurean "ashes" were so cold?

    Earlier, Theophilus of Antioch (115~183/5 CE) includes slanders against both the Stoics and Epicureans in his letter To Autolycus (Ad Autolycum 3.6):

    Quote

    And Epicurus himself, too, as well as teaching atheism, teaches along with it incest with mothers and sisters, and this in transgression of the laws which forbid it; for Solon distinctly legislated regarding this, in order that from a married parent children might lawfully spring, that they might not be born of adultery, so that no one should honour as his father him who was not his father, or dishonour him who was really his father, through ignorance that he was so. And these things the other laws of the Romans and Greeks also prohibit. Why, then, do Epicurus and the Stoics teach incest and sodomy, with which doctrines they have filled libraries, so that from boyhood this lawless intercourse is learned? And why should I further spend time on them, since even of those they call gods they relate similar things?

    It seems the early Christians were SO threatened by the Epicureans (and Stoics) that they just railed and railed against them endlessly. From that alone, it appears that Epicurus's school continued to have great significance and impact well into the "Christian" era.

    Display More

    From everything I've read, I have gotten a few impressions:

    (1) We overestimate the amount of people in the Roman Empire who actually identified as "Christian" by 400 CE. Just because the Emperor passed an edict, and just because a State passed a declaration does not necessarily mean that all of those living within the jurisdiction of that system had mentally converted to that tradition. (The government of China versus the religious practices of the majority of its population serves as a good example.)

    (2) We underestimate the popularity of Neoplatonism during the same time period that Christianity was rising in numbers. This was particularly problematic (much more so than any threat of Epicureanism) because a number of the early Christian Church Fathers (who are still accepted in Christian culture as Saints and guides) were Middle Platonists, (first) and Christians (second). Neoplatonism was a mystical, providential competitor with Nicene Christianity.

    (3) We overlook the influence of the Christian heretics. Well into the Middle Ages, Nicene Christians were still fighting the heresies of Arianism and Nestorianism. Many of these heretics were influenced by the notion that some element of Jesus was flesh-and-blood, thus, in the same way that Fascists tend to call everyone remotely left of them Communists (or vis-a-versa), everyone who doesn't agree with Nicene Christians were "Epicureans", or some other slur.

    (4) We also overlook the influence of Gnosticism throughout the Empire. During this same time period, Mandaeism and Manichaeism developed and began claiming thousands of converts, particularly among the Persian community which contributed Zoroastrian themes to their practice. Like the heretics, they believed in some divinity of Jesus of Nazareth and/or John the Baptist, and yet, still, they were not considered "Christian" by the Church Fathers.

    (5) Along that same line of Persian influence, we also overlook the influence of the Cult of Mithra. This seems to have been (at least, at the beginning of the Roman Empire) the dominant spiritual tradition of Roman soldiers, and had a particular presence among men who previously practiced mystery rites. This cult was a competitor with Nicene Christianity, heretical Christian sects, Gnostics, Middle Platonists, and Neoplatonists.

    So, it may not necessarily have been the case that the spark of Epicureanism was extinguished by the deluge of Christianity, but rather, was both (a) being appropriated as a slur for the opponents of any forms of Idealism, and (b) was competing in a plural world where no one ideology claimed over 50% of the population.

  • Emily Austin Seems To Think That Sex Is An Extravagant Pleasure aka natural but unnecessary. Do you agree?

    • Eikadistes
    • November 9, 2023 at 3:14 PM

    I think that sex cannot be necessary, because many people are not healthy enough to have sex, and Epicurus reminds us that one is never too young, nor too old, nor too impotent to tend to the health of one's soul.

    (We also might be thinking about this in terms of celibate adults, but let's keep in mind that most children are not having sex, and they can still enjoy the natural pleasure of wisdom; and even then, the natural pleasure that is sex does not become available until a certain point in a person's life, so we might even say it is unnatural below a certain age).

    Also, not that anyone was making this point, but just to share this perspective: we have no obligation to the species to reproduce. It is no one person's duty to perpetuate the genes of ancient creatures just because one shares their DNA.

  • Updated TimeTable of the Epicurean World

    • Eikadistes
    • November 6, 2023 at 8:11 PM
    Quote from Joshua

    It is definitely useful to see these things in their context. For example;

    In a letter scholars have dated to c. 355, Julian the Apostate was commenting on the political inaction of the Epicureans;


    https://en.m.wikisource.org/wiki/Letter_to…the_philosopher

    Another letter from the same advocates the Suppression of Epicurean texts;

    https://en.m.wikisource.org/wiki/Fragment_…ter_to_a_priest

    Quote

    Let us not admit discourses by Epicurus or Pyrrho; but indeed the gods have already in their wisdom destroyed their works, so that most of their books have ceased to be. Nevertheless there is no reason why I should not, by way of example, mention these works too, to show what sort of discourses priests must especially avoid; and if such discourses, then much more must they avoid such thoughts. For an error of speech is, in my opinion, by no means the same as an error of the mind, but we ought to give heed to the mind first of all, since the tongue sins in company with it.

    By edict of a pagan emperor in a letter to one of his priests, Epicureanism becomes thought crime. It is actually worse in his view to think about than to speak about it, because speech is vulnerable to correction and purgation while thought is not.

    The 15th century Florentine iconoclast priest Savonarolo would be proud.

    Quote

    “Listen women,” he preached to the crowd, “They say that this world was made of atoms, that is, those tiniest of particles that fly through the air.” No doubt savoring the absurdity, he encouraged his listeners to express their derision out loud: “Now laugh, women, at the studies of these learned men.”

    A few decades after the reign of Julian came St. Augustine's survey of the situation -- "The ashes of Epicureanism are so cold that not a single spark can be struck from them."

    Within two centuries of Diogenes Laertius, there was almost nothing left.

    Display More

    Julian is an interesting figure (as I've recently found), in being a refreshing, polytheistic alternative to the growing, mystical Christian cult, who was equally Platonic, and therein anti-Epicurean in his education. This is particularly interesting, in that at least four early Church Fathers, as recognized by the Catholic and Orthodox churches, were admitted Platonists who not only rode the wave of Plutarch's Middle Platonism, but positively inhaled the Neoplatonism of Saccas, Plotinus, Porphyry, and Iamblichus, who derived their adaptations based off explicitly Indian forms of super-natural, supra-mental, or ascetic expressions of religious devotion. It's an interesting period.

  • Updated TimeTable of the Epicurean World

    • Eikadistes
    • November 6, 2023 at 2:49 PM
    Quote from Joshua

    Thank You!

    Quote from Cassius

    Also for future reference, you indicated this morning that you found a better "keyword" to use in searching for something like this better than "timeline." Do you recall what that was?

    Well, that's the trouble; there is the Gantt Chart which is infuriatingly close to what we need, and may actually be helpful in feeding a growing table of data into a chart maker. But it has it's downsides. For one thing, the resulting chart will almost always be longer vertically than horizontally, which means a pretty massive file for the amount of data presented.

    Also, every one I've seen has the labels in a column on the left rather in the chart itself.

    I just don't know how to search for this;

    https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Time…ian_history.jpg

    without finding a lot of this:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economy_o…States_GDP.webp

    Display More

    Josh, thank you for sharing this map. I think that this interdisciplinary approach is integral to a genuine interface with these ancient ideas, on their own terms. You'll see soon (as I think you also intend) to demonstrate those ideologies that functionally replaced the popularity of atomism (I'm fascinated by Gnosticism and Christian Heretics [heterodoxy} in particular) and I believe that incorporating a visual estimation of the popularity of mysticism, albeit is Gnosticism [The narrative of John the Baptist (x) Middle Platonism] or Pauline Christianity [Judaism (x) Mithraism (x) Imperial Worship (x) honestly, IDK, Saul of Tarsus' weird, personal affectations], we are looking at literal "Magic" that become more digestible to Greco-Roman peoples in terms of safety and security than Roman tolerance of *material* Polytheism.

  • Updated TimeTable of the Epicurean World

    • Eikadistes
    • November 6, 2023 at 8:25 AM
    Quote from Don

    Wasn't there a scholarch with a Roman name? Source amnesia on that one.

    I'm thinking you mean Popilius Theotimus. He's the only listed Scholarach with a Latin familiar name.

    There also seems to be some suggestion that after somewhere between Apollodorus the "Tryant" and Zeno of Sidon there was a fracture of inheritance that lead to some level of involvement from characters like Diogenes of Tarsus, the Ptolemys of Alexandria, and perhaps Orion the otherwise unattested Epicurean. I believe that is speculative.

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