Posts by Martin

Welcome Philliped1!

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I understand that in this sense Epicurus' warns us that investigation of nature is only acceptable to the the point that it augments pleasure, or that ""scientific investigation"" is only a help for ethics, not a goal on its own.

This statement exaggerates what Epicurus wrote.

According to Epicurus, there is no need to investigate nature further than to remove our fears of god, supernatural threats and a painful afterlife. Removing such fears augments pleasure. He does not warn against further investigation. The augmentation of pleasure is for the individual, not the society.

Replacing a tentative belief with knowledge is a pleasure. For scientists like me and R&D engineers, the result of the hedonic calculus regarding our studies is usually to continue, which then is in line with Epicurus' philosophy.

At this point, it is still not clear to me how free will in the sense of agency arises. Further development of AI and comparing the results with living beings may improve the understanding.

Godfrey's comment #16 appears to be somewhat off or misleading.

That the act of measuring affects the thing being measured is related to the uncertainty principle of quantum theory.

We do not know the size of photons and electrons. The smallest feature we can measure is given by the wavelength of the photons, electrons or whatever other probes we use multiplied by a factor. By increasing their energy, the wavelength becomes smaller, and correspondingly, smaller features can be resolved. That is why physicists who work with accelerators keep pushing for higher energies.

Within Epicurean physics, atoms are hard bodies. If they were large and not emitting anything, they would at least be visible as shadows.

Epicurus' concept of bodies emitting films appears to be an inconsistency within his physics and does not match modern physics. I see no convincing analogy there.

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"I wonder if it is possible to figure out that, for example, the sum of an infinite series can be finite purely a priori."

In mathematics, series means the sum of a sequence. Therefore, I assume you mean ".. the sum of an infinite sequence can be finite purely a priori."

There is an easy proof that the infinite geometric series 1 + r + r*r + r*r*r + ... is 1/(1 - r) for r<1. This is finite for all cases r<1. (With r as the ratio of the speed of the tortoise to the speed of Achilles and multiplied by the head start, 1/(1 - r) solves Zeno's paradox. Zeno formulates the paradox such that he arbitrarily limits the consideration to the interval before Achilles reaches the tortoise.)

For r equal to or greater than 1, the sum of the infinite geometric sequence 1, r, r*r, r*r*r + ... is infinite.

Welcome Beasain!

Lucretius must have done extensive studies of Epicurus' philosophy before or while writing the poem to provide so many details and repeatedly addresses Memmius directly to persuade him of Epicurus' philosophy. Therefore, a statement that Lucretius had no links with Epicureanism is not convincing.

Welcome DavidN!

Welcome Root304!

I should still be on the way to Germany on this 18th.

Welcome Onenski!

Welcome reneliza!

Welcome DailyEpicurus!

Ivan Sergeyevich Turgenev was a writer, not a philosopher. He popularized Nihilism with his novel Fathers and Sons, published in 1862.

Welcome lulucarpet!

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Observable universe is a good modern analogy.

Solar system or galaxy seem to be a better modern analogy for cosmos. That would leave enough space for gods between solar systems or galaxies und would not put them completely out of reach to the point that we should rather tear off completely what Epicurus wrote about them.

Thanks for the compilation.

I agree with about half of them as more or less strong analogies but the others are too much of a stretch:

1. Momentum does not fit in here because its law of conservation is independent from that for energy.

1. and 2. are only weak analogies because elementary particles can be created from kinetic energy and destroyed into other forms of energy (but not from nothing / into nothing as correctly stated by Epicurus in that context).

8. No (or I just do not see that one).

9. Farfetched because what Epicurus claims here is quite different from Newton's laws. Instead, the analogy with molecular and lattice vibrations is much stronger and really impressive/prophetic.

10, Brownian motion fits less well than the uncertainty principle.

11. OK with Nate's disclaimer.

12. Innumerable seems not to fit as of now.

Welcome BeberH!

I guess that "the solar plexus having an association with sight and the throat having an association with listening" is rather a part of the woo-woo. Although the ancients did get quite some things right, most of those connections seem to be arbitrary and based on superstition.

I keep using the term "hedonic calculus" because I do not know a better currently used term although I fully agree with Godfrey's comment #6.

The listed considerations in other comments of this thread are all useful. My description is meant to complement them:

We use our knowledge and experience to estimate whether it is likely that the considered action produces the desired outcome and that this outcome actually produces the expected pleasure. A severely adverse outcome needs to be expected to be very unlikely to take the risk.

We consider this for all feasible options we would consider and choose the one which appears to be the most efficient or which we simply like the most among several good options.

We should not worry too much about actually hitting the maximum pleasure. It is enough if the result provides considerable net pleasure which is worth the pain in preparations or consequences.

Here are some examples:

I occasionally go for a zipline adventure because before the first time I knew from other experiences that viewing nature from an elevated but close perspective and gravitational and inertial sliding are pleasurable, and I have only moderate fear of height, and I know from the first time that a zipline flight is indeed extremely pleasurable and because I expect the probability of a serious accident to be very low based on that I read about only 2 serious accidents (one high impact with bone fractures under circumstances which do not apply to me, one fatal impact which could have been mitigated by appropriate action of the victim, no falls from snapped lines or harness failures so far) and because the way the lines, break systems, harnesses and procedures are set up appears to be safe.

Already as a kid, I felt great pleasure from knowing stuff and noticed that learning was mostly pleasure but manual work was mostly unpleasant. I figured out that a university degree would facilitate finding a job which I mostly enjoy and which would pay enough to get me out of the somewhat adverse working-class environment in which I grew up. So I put in a lot of effort in studying the subjects which I liked the most to a high degree for maximum choice although the long study would keep me poor for an extended period.

A case where math can actually contribute to the hedonic calculus is the consideration to buy a car: The total cost of acceptable alternatives for my transport needs is much lower than cost of ownership of a car. Other reasons against a car are the displeasure about its carbon foot print, feeling guilty if I cause an accident, the risk of injury from an accident, the worry about deterioration, theft and sabotage. For me, the greater flexibility in transport and the maybe only imagined facilitation of getting a girl-friend do not weigh up all these disadvantages. Therefore, I never owned a car and currently, I have no plan to ever buy one. Only unexpected changes in circumstances might change that.

I chose based on hedonic calculus to have no fridge, no TV, no washing-machine, no dish washer and no other expensive status symbols in the apartments where I stay alone. However, I am not a minimalist because my rooms are full of stuff which I bought or collected mostly for pleasure.

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Whether or not the Sun consists of hydrogen or not, we cannot prove (yet).

Cecilia Payne proved already around 1925 that the sun and other stars analyzed by then consist predominantly of hydrogen (with helium as other major constituent and traces of heavier elements). Her discovery made by analyzing atomic spectra was so revolutionary that she had to apply the trick to "prove" why her result cannot be correct to get her thesis accepted. Those who initially disagreed with her finding "because it could not be" quickly found out she was right. What is still not yet known with the desirable accuracy is the concentration of heavier elements than helium.

Welcome Jake cu!