Posts by Martin

  • Presenting the Principal Doctrines in Narrative Form

    Quote

    I'm wondering if Martin is able to determine where the 44 comes from in the German translation.

    This is in reply to Don's comment #19.

    The German translation referenced in #18 has 44 numbered Principal Doctrines.

    It claims to be the first translation of Diogenes Laertius' "History of Philosophy" directly from Greek to German and acknowledges older indirect translations from tranlations into other languages.

    While browsing through the foreword, I did not find anything on the numbering but the following noteworthy statements to quote:

    P. VI (12) "Wir vergessen oft das Jahr, wo wir uns trauen liessen, ...":

    "We often forget the year in which we got married, ..."

    (in the context of the difficulty of correctly establishing the ancient chronolgy).

    P. X (16) "Denn der griechische Text des Laertios ist voll Unrichtigkeiten, und daher sehr oft nicht nur dunkel, sondern beinahe unverstaendlich, und unerklaerbar; dies gilt vorzueglich von dem Lehrsystem des Platon, der Stoiker, von dem ganzen dogmatischen Theile des zehnten Buches, wo beinahe nicht mehr fortzukommen war, und wo ich also oft vielmehr den Oedipus als den Uebersetzer machen musste.":

    "For the Greek text of Laertius is full of mistakes and therefore very often not only obscure but almost incomprehensible; this is particularly true of the doctrinal system of Plato, the Stoics, of the whole dogmatic part of the tenth book, where it was almost impossible to get any further, and where I therefore often had to do Oedipus rather than the translator."

    (I am not sure what doing Oedipus means here and wonder whether the translator rather meant Sisyphus.)

  • Does the philosophy change you?

    It seems there are worlds between religious education in America/Ireland and Germany.

    In Germany, religious education is a mandatory part of education in state schools, includes church service on one school day morning per week, and is usually done separately for Catholics and Protestants, whereby Protestants are usually lumped together in one curriculum irrespective of their variants. More recently, religious education for Muslims, too, has been added in public schools. Parents can opt their kids out of the mandatory religious education, and from age 14 onward, kids can opt out on their own. However, that opting out was rare during my time at school.

    This background would suggest that indoctrination is particularly severe in Germany but actually it is not, at least not in Cologne, which is predominantly Catholic, and nearby urban areas. Culture in Cologne is traditionally oriented toward pleasure. Carnival season lasts about 5 months, and many activists prepare for the next season during the remaining part of the year. Popular pubs are full throughout the year. Pleasure is in people's mind all the time.

    A fear-mongering religion would be ridiculous in Cologne. Therefore, religious education was made interesting and partly even fun. As a consequence, I was confident to go to heaven as a faithful kid with good grades in Catholic education and did not fear Hell. Under the influence of my protestant father, who detested the Catholic church, I stopped attending Mass on Sundays and distanced myself from the church and the bogus concept of sins early but not yet from belief in the Abrahamic god and did not even know of the possibility of atheism until religious education discussed atheist publications in my 11th year at school. Against the intention of the curriculum, I found the arguments of the teacher against Marx and Freud not convincing and turned agnostic with 3 years of struggle in the transition. I stayed with Catholic ethics as a default because I did not find a new set of explicit ethics for several decades but ditched any part of Catholic ethics which did not make sense to me or appeared to be politically conservative mind control. Therefore, getting rid of Catholic programming of my subconscience was easy.

    It was much more difficult to get rid of idealism. Whereas I am rather calm by nature, deviations from the ideal/optimum could trigger fits of anger both at work and in private. After 20 years of struggle, I got rid of that, too.

    Recognizing Epicurus' philosophy as similar to my philosophy of life in 2016 and studying where it goes beyond what I had figured out on my own before has rooted out the last remains of that idealism of my past.

    So far, my biggest change from exposure to Epicurus has been increased confidence in my choices.

  • Who to believe?

    I choose actions and avoidances such that my experience and scientific knowledge predict a high likelihood of sustainable maxed out pleasure which is worth the pain in preparations and consequences.

  • Quotes from Karl Krohn's dissertation "Der Epikureer Hermarchos"

    The text was downloaded from:

    Der Epikureer Hermarchos [microform] : Krohn, Karl, 1895- : Free Download, Borrow, and Streaming : Internet Archive
    Greek texts with commentary in German and notes in Latin
    archive.org

    I corrected numerous failures of the OCR where they were obvious. Some breaks in the text indicate that a bit of the content may have been lost in the generation of the electronic document. The dissertation appears to be short by today's customs.

    Although parts of Karl Krohn's work have probably become obsolete because of later findings, I listed everything which appeared interesting for our forum or myself. I can add surrounding text of some quotes upon request.

    Accents above Greek letters are lost in my quotes. I rendered lower German quotation marks as upper ones.


    PageQuote in German originalEnglish translation by Google corrected by MartinMartin's Comments
    9Von den fünf Schriften Hermarchs, deren Titel uns überliefert werden (Epistolika über Empedokles, Über die Wissenschaften, Gegen Plato, Gegen Aristoteles, Briefe, fr. 20), sind uns die beiden gegen Plato und Aristoteles ihrem Inhalt nach gänzlich unbekannt.
    		Of the five writings of Hermarchus whose titles have come down to us (Epistolica on Empedocles, On the Sciences, Against Plato, Against Aristotle, Letters, fr. 20), the content of the two against Plato and Aristotle is completely unknown to us.
    9Porphyr bezeichnet in seinem Werke über den Vorzug der vegetarischen Lebensweise die Ausmalung der Urzustände der Menschheit und ihrer allmählichen Entwicklung (I 7-12) allgemein als aus epikureischer Quelle stammend (...). Ein Vergleich der diesen 6 Kapiteln vorangehenden und nachfolgenden Quellenangaben, die chiastisch einander gegenübergestellt sind (...) ergibt einwandfrei den Hermarchischen Ursprung der von Porphyr geschilderten menschlichen Urgeschichte (fr. 24), wie Jacob Bernays (Theophrastos Schrift über die Frömmigkeit Berlin 1866) erwiesen hat.In his work on the preference of the vegetarian way of life, Porphyry describes the depiction of the original state of mankind and its gradual development (I 7-12) as generally coming from an Epicurean source (...). A comparison of the sources preceding and following these 6 chapters, which are chiastically juxtaposed (...) unequivocally shows the Hermarchic origin of the human prehistory described by Porphyry (fr. 24), as Jacob Bernays (Theophrastos writing about devotion Berlin 1866) has proved.
    11/12Den Zusammenhang der Menschheitsgenealogie bei Porphyr (I 7-12) mit Epikurs Κυριαι δοξαι 31-40 (Diog. L. X 150 ff.) hat schon Usener (Ep. S. 397/8) erkannt. Er und Bernays nahmen an, daß Hermarch bei Abfassung seines Werkes über Empedokles die uns vorliegenden Sentenzen des Meisters in ihrer Form etwas abänderte und sie in seinen uns wörtlich von Porphyr überlieferten Text hineinflickte. Neuerdings hat nun Diels (a. a. O. S. 50) die Behauptung aufgestellt, jene zehn Sentenzen seien Exzerpte des Originaltextes der Schrift über Empedokles. Da die wörtliche Wiedergabe der Genealogie durch Porphyr oben widerlegt ist, handelt es sich jetzt darum, zu entscheiden, ob Epikur der Verfasser jener 10 Sentenzen ist, die Hermarch dann in sein Werk aufgenommen haben müßte und über die uns Porphyr ein Referat gäbe, oder ob ein jüngerer Epikureer, der als Redakteur sämtlicher 40 Sentenzen anzusehen wäre (Us. Ep. S. XLVI) die 30 ursprünglichen "Grundansichten" durch einen Zusatz von 10 aus Hermarch entnommenen vermehrt hat. Nun zeigt sich zwar, daß die Gedanken der Sentenzen 31, 33-35 über Existenz eines natürlichen Rechts (31. 33. = Epikur Us. fr. 593. 524. 529. 597. 531. 551 - Hermarch K. 7 und 8 ) und Abschreckung als Wesen der Strafe (34. 95. = Epikur Us. fr. 531. 532. 534. 535. 582. 18. 397 - Hermarch K. 7 und 8 ) sowohl bei Epikur als auch bei Hermarch vorkommen. Aber der Inhalt der Sentenzen 32, 36-40 hat keine Parallele bei Epikur. Gedanken wie Unmöglichkeit eines friedlichen Bündnisses mit Tieren (32 = Hermarch K. 12), Unterschied von allgemein menschlichen und einzel-völkischen Rechtsprinzipien (36-38 - Hermarch K. 12), Erstarkung eines Gemeinwesens nach außen und innen durch gesetzliche Ordnung (39-40 = Hermarch K. 10) finden sich nirgends in den erhaltenen Schriften Epikurs.


    		Usener (Ep. p. 397/8) already recognized the connection between the human genealogy in Porphyry (I 7-12) and Epicurus Κυριαι δοξαι 31-40 (Diog. L. X 150 ff.). He and Bernays assumed that Hermarchus, in composing his work on Empedocles, somewhat modified the form of the sentences of the master that are available to us, and patched them into his text, which has come down to us verbatim from Porphyry. Recently, Diels (ibid., p. 50) has asserted that those ten sentences are excerpts from the original text of the writing on Empedocles. Since the literal rendering of the genealogy by Porphyry has been refuted above, the issue now is to decide whether Epicurus is the author of those 10 sentences which Hermarchus would then have to have included in his work and on which Porphyry would give us a report, or whether a younger Epicurean, who should be regarded as the editor of all 40 Sentences (Us. Ep. p. XLVI), has augmented the 30 original "fundamental doctrines" by adding 10 taken from Hermarchus. Now it turns out that the thoughts of Sentences 31, 33-35 about the existence of a natural right (31. 33. = Epicurus Us. fr. 593. 524. 529. 597. 531. 551 - Hermarchus K. 7 and 8 ) and deterrence as the essence of punishment (34. 95. = Epicurus Us. fr. 531. 532. 534. 535. 582. 18. 397 - Hermarchus K. 7 and 8 ) occur both in Epicurus and in Hermarchus. But the content of Sentences 32, 36-40 has no parallel in Epicurus. Thoughts such as the impossibility of a peaceful alliance with animals (32 = Hermarchus K. 12), difference between general human and national legal principles (36-38 - Hermarchus K. 12), strengthening of a community both externally and internally through legal order (39- 40 = Hermarchus K. 10) are found nowhere in the surviving writings of Epicurus.
    13Die Vermutung liegt nahe, daß Epikur seine Auffassung u. a. auch Protagoras entlehnt hat. Wenn anderseits nun auch Hermarch mit den beiden Vorsokratikern Berührungspunkte zeigen sollte - und man kann als solche die Verteidigung des Fleischessens und Tiertötens (Demokrit, Diels Vorsokr. fr. 251-260; Hermarch K. 10) und Erörterung des unvorsätzlichen Mordes (Protagoras, Diels A 10; Hermarch K. 9) auffassen -, so liegt durchaus nicht die Notwendigkeit vor, hier in Epikur den Vermittler zwischen Protagoras und Demokrit einerseits und Hermarch andrerseits zu sehen und daraus zu folgern, daß Hermarch etwa jene beiden Stellen Epikurs Schriften entnommen habe; nichts spricht dagegen anzunehmen, daß er beide Vorsokratiker unabhängig von Epikur hätte benutzen können. Die Selbständigkeit der Schilderung Hermarchs und ihre, wenn auch nicht allzu erhebliche Abweichung von der seines Meisters kann also auch für den Fall der Gemeinsamkeit der Gewährsmänner Protagoras und Demokrit aufrechterhalten bleiben.

    		It is reasonable to assume that Epicurus based his opinion on Protagoras among others. If, on the other hand, Hermarchus should also show points of contact with the two pre-Socratics - and one can as such see the defense of eating meat and killing animals (Democritus, Diels Vorsokr. fr. 251-260; Hermarchus K. 10) and the discussion of unintentional murder (Protagoras, Diels A 10; Hermarchus K. 9) - then there is absolutely no need to see Epicurus as the mediator between Protagoras and Democritus on the one hand and Hermarchus on the other and to conclude from this that Hermarchus took those two passages from Epicurus's writings; nothing speaks against assuming that he could have used both pre-Socratics independently of Epicurus. The independence of Hermarchus description and its, albeit not too significant, deviation from that of his master can therefore also be maintained for the case of commonality between the references Protagoras and Democritus.Murder is by definition intentional, at least for the German word used by Krohn.


    14Schon im Altertum hat es nicht an Leuten gefehlt, die einige der Grundansichten (Κυριαι δοξαι) Epikur aberkannten (vgl. fr. 28).


    		Already in antiquity there was no lack of people who rejected Epicurus' authorship of some of the Principal Doctrines (Κυριαι δοξαι) (cf. fr. 28).


    		Google translated this wrongly as: "Even in antiquity there was no lack of people who rejected some of the basic views (Κυριαι δοξαι) of Epicurus (cf. fr. 28)."
    15Man entdeckt vor allem in fr. 29 und 31 einen Kritiker, der ein Wahrzeichen rednerisch-dialektischer Vorbildung, wie sie Hermarch besaß, an sich trägt: die spitzfindige Wort- und Begriffsklauberei.One discovers above all in fr. 29 and 31 a critic who bears a mark of oratorical-dialectical training, such as Hermarchus possessed: the subtle quibble about words and concepts.
    15Nicht erst seit Kant weiß man, daß das Unsterblichkeitsproblem mit dem Gottesproblem eng verbunden ist. Und der abstrakte Gottesbegriff des Empedokles (Diels fr. 134) hat sicher des Epikureers Spott und Disputierlust herausgefordert.Not only since Kant has it been known that the problem of immortality is closely connected with the problem of God. And Empedocles' abstract concept of God (Diels fr. 134) certainly provoked ridicule and lust for debate on the part of the Epicureans.
    49Inhaltsübersicht.
    A. Bericht über Leben und Schriften.
    I. Leben.
    II. Schriften.
    a) Die Epistolika.
    b) Über die Wissenschaften.
    c) Briefe.
    B. Fragmente und Zeugnisse.
    I. Über das Leben (fr. 1-19).
    II. Über die Schriften (fr. 20-57).
    1. Epistolika (fr. 20-39).
    2. Über die Wissenschaften (fr, 40-44).
    3. Briefe (fr. 45-51).
    III. Zweifelhaftes (fr. 58).
    Nachtrag.
    Autorenverzeichnis.    		Table of Contents.
    A. Account of Life and Writings.
    I Life.
    II. Writings.
    a) The Epistolica.
    b) About the sciences.
    c) Letters.
    B. Fragments and Testimonies.
    I. About life (fr. 1-19).
    II. About the scriptures (fr. 20-57).
    1. Epistolica (fr. 20-39).
    2. About the sciences (fr, 40-44).
    3. Epistles (fr. 45-51).
    III. Doubtful (fr. 58).
    Addendum.
    Index of authors.

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