Posts by Elli

And as Diogenis of Oinoanda also said : "The important point to take from the study of physics is that the universe did not arise at random from chaos, nor was it created, or is it controlled, by any gods. But do not take from this that we Epicureans are impious, or that we fail to have sympathy for those who have false opinions about the gods. Men who experience false visions, but who are unable to understand how they are produced, are understandably apprehensive, and they convince themselves that these visions were created by the gods. Such men vehemently denounce even the most pious men as atheists. As we proceed, it will become evident to you that it is not the Epicureans, who deny the true gods, but those who hold false opinions about the gods. For we Epicureans are not like those philosophers who categorically assert that the gods do not exist, and who attack those who hold otherwise. Nor are we like Protagoras of Abdera, who said that he did not know whether gods exist, for that is the same as saying that he knew that they do not exist. Nor do we agree with Homer, who portrayed the gods as adulterers, and as angry with those who are prosperous. In contrast, we hold that the statues of the gods should be made genial and smiling, so that we may smile back at them, rather than be afraid of them.

Let us reverence the gods, and observe the customs of our fathers, but let us not impute to the gods any concepts that are not worthy of divinity. For example, it is false to believe that the gods, who are perfect, created this world because they had need of a city, or needed fellow-citizens. Nor did the gods create the world because they needed a place to live. To those who say such naive things, we ask in turn: “Where were the gods living beforehand?”

Those men who hold that this world was created uniquely by the gods, as a place for the gods to live, of course have no answer to this question. By their view, the gods were destitute and roaming about at random for an infinite time before the creation of this world, like an unfortunate man, without a country, who had neither city nor fellow citizens! It is absurd to argue that a divine nature created the world for the sake of the world itself, and it is even more absurd to argue that the gods created men for the gods’ own sake. There are too many things wrong, with both the world and with men, for them to have been created by gods!

Let us now turn our attention from gods to men.

Many men pursue philosophy for the sake of wealth and power, with the aim of procuring these either from private individuals, or from kings, who deem philosophy to be a great and precious possession.

Well, it is not in order to gain wealth or power that we Epicureans pursue philosophy! We pursue philosophy so that we may enjoy happiness through attainment of the goal craved by Nature".

You're welcome Cassius.

First causes :

Fear of God

Fear of Death

“Tantum religio potuit suadere malorum” ." From Lucretius' De Rerum Natura, Book I, 101.

And that means : "To such heights of evil has religion been able to drive men”.

The Akathist Hymn and Small Compline to virgin Mary are two services which are sung in orthodox churches around the world on the first five Fridays during Great Lent.

Here is a small excerpt of the Akathist Hymn (that includes insults against Greeks) in the parenthesis are some of my notes. The worse thing is that this hymn is heard and sung by the people in Greece who they called themselves as GREEKS !! Interesting eh?!

Here it is :

Priest : All Angels were quite amazed by the great deed of Your incarnation. For they beheld the once inaccessible God accessible to all as- a man living among us, while hearing from everyone: Alleluia.

People : Alleluia.

Priest : Eloquent rhetors we see mute as fish before you O Theotokos (this means "Birth-giver to a god named as Jesus Christ). For they are at a loss to explain how you had the power to give birth and yet remained a virgin. But we the faithful marveling at the mystery cry out with faith:

Rejoice, you who has redeemed us from the pagan religion. (Here they mean the ancient greek religion)

Rejoice, you who has rescued us from the works of mire. (They call the works of greeks as mire).

Rejoice, you who ceased the worship of fire. (Fire worship in Graeco-Roman tradition had two separate forms: fire of the hearth and fire of the forge. Hearth worship was maintained in Rome by the Vestal Virgins, who served the goddess Vesta, protector of the home, who had a sacred flame as the symbol of her presence in the city. The Greek equivalent of the goddess was Hestia, whose worship took place more commonly within the household. The fire of the forge was associated with the Greek god Hephaestus and the Roman equivalent Vulcan. These two seem to have served both as craft-guild patrons and as protectors against accidental fires in cities. Also associated with fire is the titanic god Prometheus, who stole fire for humans from the gods).

And they continue the insults for the purpose to transvaluate all the values and any healthy social system :

Rejoice, you who saves us from the flames of passions. (Here are against the main two emotions that Epicurus called them as “Πάθη-Passions”, and that means they are against the hedonic calculation and the positive result that is the goal of pleasure)

Rejoice, vessel of God's wisdom; (No comment!)

Rejoice, storehouse of God's providence. (Here are against Epicurus and all the epicureans who do not believe in god’s providence).

Rejoice, revealer of philosophers as fools; (Here are against to ALL the greek philosophers characterizing them as FOOL).

Rejoice, exposer of the technologists as irrational. (Here are against all the sciences and the scientists/technologists characterizing them as irrational).

Rejoice, for the fierce debaters are made foolish; (Here are against the debaters on philosophy, as the virgin Mary made them all to look like foolish).

Rejoice, for the creators of the myths have wilted. (Here are against Homer, Hesiod etc).

Rejoice, breaker of the webs of the Athenians' logic; (Here are against ancient Athenian philosophers and whatever they said are webs= fairytales)

Rejoice, filler of the nets of the fishermen. (virgin Mary fills with fish the nets of fishermen. Fishermen are doing anything at all, this is the same with the manna-food that dropped from heavens. Please see and the following text by Dimitris Liantinis).

Rejoice, drawer of many from the abyss of ignorance; (they mean drawer of many of knowledge).

Rejoice, enlightener of many with knowledge. (they mean enlightener of many with ignorance).

Rejoice, ship for those wishing salvation; (salvation ? See the following text by Liantinis)

Rejoice, harbor for life's navigators. (navigators ? No way, they mean andrapoda = slaves)

People (i.e. the andrapoda=slaves) : Rejoice, O Bride unwedded.

“The transvaluation of the system” (from Liantinis’ book TA HELLINIKA)

Christians in life's gifts they proposed death and sacrifice. In the world of senses and tangible things, their counter-proposal was the chaos of imagination and hypothetical assumptions.

In health, they proposed weak and illness. In the events of the Gospels, protagonists are the blind and the deaf, the lunar and the paralytic, the lepers, the damn and the mummies of dead.

The blind receive sight, the lame walk, those who have leprosy are cleansed, the deafs are hear, the dead are raised, and the good news is proclaimed to the poor. Wealth struck poverty. The sister and the nymph of Saint Francis. The desert camel does not pass through the needle's hole, they said.

In honor and glory, they responded with obscurity and humility. The end will be the first, they said. And the servants' purses of purple and crown. Hail the king of the Jews.In pride and the love of honor, they showed humiliation and shame. Blessed are you when you insult you and persecute you, they said.

In the grace of mouth and in the delicious food they answered with fasting and Lents.

In the care and welfare of the wise, in the responsibility of the state for tomorrow's demands, and in the wise commission of Prometheus, they responded with the voices of the birds and the signals of the trees. See the fallen from the sky, they said. They neither sow nor reap. And nighttime they sing.

In the beauty of sentiments and in the pleasure of life they responded with the remorse of the flesh, and the dying of bodily expression. They sheltered the flower of youth. They have born from virginity and purity the neurosis. And the tender feelings of the bodies thundered to the devils' banquets and to the windbreak of the second cycle of Hell.

In strength they responded by resignation. The "thank you" of the weak made it a pouch as a sword of the mighty savage. When they slap you on your cheek, they said, kiss their hand. Blessed are the good ones.

In the joy and shine of the world, in the mist of the spring and the heroic white of snow, they replied with the gloom and blackness of the widow. Blessed are the mourners, they said.

The virtue and the catalysts of the power of knowledge responded with ignorance and darkness. They declared a general strike of the mind for all. Blessed are the poor in spirit, they said. And they brought the Middle Ages, which for many brought people back to the cave-man of Tanzania and Java. And the worst came the Sacred Examination, and a barrage of fire and a haze of darkness was set up against the humanity and light of George Brenos and the Galileans.

Finally, hunger and thirst they baptized them as the longing for an unwise justice, and the hunger of the hungry with fog and dream. Blessed are the hungry and thirsty for justice, they said. i.e. cunning and skirmishes. Because hunger and thirst first mean stomach and mouth. And then everything else. No one ever saw men without heads speaking in the Greek Agora and judging in the Roman Pretoria.

Just two greek words that have the same root and these are the "farmako" which means the <<pill>> and the "farmaki" which means the <<poison>>.

"Frugalix" the newly invented medicine that a doctor gives to all of his patients without to examine the first causes and the details of the causes i.e. the symptoms of each one of his patient's illnesses. And then this doctor thinks that he gave the right farmako=pill that for many will be transformed into farmaki=poison. Sorry, but this one is not a doctor, he is a charlatan.

The letter to Meneoceus has such a strong structure that can't be unstructured by any charlatan because it is in accordance with the right study of Nature and the methodology of the Canon.

First thing first is that when someone has the desire to speak in public for EP, he has to examine what are the first causes that make the people for being greed, unfriendly and consumers without prudence. First, we examine the General Picture that is Nature, then we examine the causes, the details of the causes, the things akin to them and then we speak about the consequences. (see the ending paragraph to Pythocles)

The main causes

Fear of god

Fear of death

some details of the causes

Fear of pain

Fear to accept and withstand the reality

Fear to be responsible

Fear to be free

Fear to give and get on the basis of the common benefit that is the basis of friendship.

Fear or embarrassment to accept finally that pleasure is the goal in life as Nature has set for us.

And the tool/methodology

Ignorance of what is the tool/methodology and how Epicurus uses it for making the hedonic calculation that lead to the liberation of those fears.

The main causes and some details of the causes that make someone to be greed, unfriendly, lonely, harsh, arrogant, depressed and a consumer without prudence and that means also that the selling and buying of useless things is the placebo pill to cover the fear of death that is the most important fear that leads to the vicious circle of the mentioned as above fears that are decoded with behaviors that lead to the incoherence of a society and finally its decadence.

Epicurus in his letter to Meneoceus says to us for what purpose and how we can philosophize. He brings and is connecting all the concepts in real life for being experiences and for not being as abstractions and words without meaning. Then he examines the main causes i.e. the fears, some details of the causes and then he examines the consequences for giving his proposals e.g. the algorithm on the desires that lead the people to the : self-sufficiency that is connected with the right study of Nature that is connected with the generosity that is connected with freedom that is connected with prudence and all these that spring from the inner self that possesses eudaemonia which means that when someone possess eudaemonia he possesses himself i.e. he is FREE and that means also that he is not compromised and subordinated to his masters for living like andrapodo=slave.

And all these according to the circumstances of the experiences in the reality that measured rightly and prudently through the hedonic calculation for leading to the natural goal that is pure pleasure.

ES 49. It is impossible for someone to dispel his fears about the most important matters if he does not know the Nature of the universe but still gives some credence to myths. So without the study of Nature there is no enjoyment of pure pleasure. (see Principle Doctrine 12).

The Greeks were not teachers with the narrow sense of the meticulous and the poor-speaker. They never advised as the grumble old women do. Neither did they come down to the people as the agents of the Law and austere rulers, to play it as panaceas and the leading experts of the Earth.

Artists cautiously disheveled, night-time hearers and observers of stars, bright speakers, improvised debaters on the sacred road to Eleusis, ephemeral athletes, life-long lovers and lovers of eros. These were the Greeks at their base. They sacrificed in beauty, as flowers are sacrificing in the sun. I mean they stun the air with their colors and smells, and the next day they wilt.

The Greeks were generous in their poorness, cruel in their persistence, and happy in their melancholy. We find them to prefer today's waste of time than to save for an ulterior motive of tomorrow. And here they are different from the Jews and other Orientalists of religions and dogmas.

A banquet rich of philosophical discussions, with drinks and players of pipes, the Greek did not exchange it for even nine months more time of his life."

("Polychronion – Stoa and Rome" by Dimitris Liantinis).

Nice speech indeed. I would like to repeat these phrases of the speech :

"Only five years ago man learned to write and use a cart with wheels"...................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................... [Kennedy's speech maker forgot to mention something important between the centuries/years].........."Christianity began less than two years ago".

And the author mr Mike says : "So Spinoza defined good as what we perceive as pleasure and bad as that which brings pain. Like Epicurus he recognised that people do experience pleasure in the pleasure of others and ultimately in the well-being of all nature".

Epicurus recognized that people do experience pleasure in the pleasure of others ....yes, but WHO ARE THOSE OTHERS ?!

That means that when Plato wrote all of his nonsense and he was pleased, Epicurus had had to be pleased too saying : Wow, Plato is pleased, so I feel pleased too. Plato said it all... and since ataraxia and aponia is my goal, I rest my case.

<<kinetic pleasures are not only physical but also include, for example, holding discussions with friends, and solving problems>>.

The distinction of pleasures as kinetic and static and as lower and higher is a totally false idea that comes from the methodology of dialectics and particularly is an invention by Aristotle. The only distinction that Epicurus makes on pleasures is only in the duration of time and the variety, but Epicurus did not mention anywhere the pleasures as higher or lower. For Epicurus all pleasures are good. And when Epicurus says that prudence is higher than philosophy he connects and the prudence which teaches us how to live a pleasant life "ηδέως ζην" [hedeos zin].

Example how misleading is the distinction on pleasures : I have a meal with my friends, and I discuss with them during the time of that meal...what the heck of pleasure is that ? a lower kinetic pleasure or a higher static pleasure or something third ?

As the author remarks kinetic pleasures are not only physical i.e. "holding discussions with friends are not physical pleasures" and that means that when you discuss with your friends this happens without your bodies like to be ghosts (see photo) . HA

Who is that caricature on the left Dalai Lama ?

Quote from Cassius

It is hard to overstate the importance of this observation on the Epicurean view of "truth," from the same source:

This is the greek phrase as has been said by Epicurus in his letter Herodotus : <<Τα υποτεταγμένα τοις φθόγγοις>> [pron. ta ypotetagmena tis fthogis].

First of all, Herodotus, we must grasp the concepts that are submitted to words. The word that Epicurus used is not “attached” actually, it is “submitted". And submission means you have already conquered something. And the most important is that when you have conquered in your life the pleasure and eudaemonia.

The concepts are the images that the brain from our childhood accumulates along with senses and feelings and these images are submitted to words. The brain works photographically, actually. The image of a word in our brain is as a whole and not separated into parts. When we say human our mind has already the General Picture of the human. And for giving definition to the words is unnecessary/redundant, because we will lead to funny situations.

Look how funny was the whole situation with the word "human" when Plato tried to give the definition of human as an animal, biped and featherless. Thus, Diogenes the Cynic plucked a rooster and brought it into the lecture-room of Plato’s academy saying : "Behold Plato's man !".

I imagine, in front of this scene, all Platos’ pupils to laugh out loud, and Plato to be angry and saying to them loudly:

- Why are you laughing you little roosters?

And a young epicurean responding to Plato :

- Because your methodology of dialectics is tragelafos [tragelafos is a situation for laughing and crying at the same time].

Thus, Plato angrily and loudly saying to that young epicurean :

- You are kicked out of my Academy !

And the young epicurean responding to Plato:

- At last, I'll breathe free the clean air, and I'm going to Epicurus' Garden to learn his methodology of the Canon, connected with Physics and Ethics. Indeed, my parents would be happy to not giving such a lot of money for your classes in your academy for the purpose to learn foolish things that do not bring me pleasure and eudaemonia.

You do imagine that that young epicurean provoked anarchy and revolution in the academy of Plato. HA

Since all Platos' pupils were singing also :

We don't need no education

We don't need no thought control

No dark sarcasm in the classroom

Hey! Teacher! Leave them kids alone!

All in all, it's just another brick in the wall

All in all, you're just another brick in the wall.

Bravissimo mio amico italiano Michelle, tu sei un autentico discendente di Lucrezio.

"Christians and Epicureans talk about friendship and love. But Epicureans must think about it".

Christians and their cousins i.e. the Abrahamic monotheistic religions may speak for "friendship" and "love" but their "friendship" and "love" has a virus that is capable enough for leading to the disease and the collapse of any healthy body inside any society. Christians speak for "friendship" and "love" hypocritically since, inside them is a hidden egoism, and a huge selfishness which is due to their fears of god and death. These fears make them thinking and acting, like the reptilian brains, and in two ways: either to attack to their opponents and destroy them, or to be hidden for acting with cunning as their double spy Saul of Tarsus acted. This hidden huge selfishness, in psychological terms, is their depression and it is against the goal of pleasure, and the enjoyment of life that leads the majority of them to apathy and anesthesia (waiting for their salvation by their saviors/leaders that with their laws and their symbols had exterminate day by day through the idealism, the greek scientific/materialistic spirit of Epicurus, inside the schools, universities, academies, courts, ministries, etc etc), and the worse consequence of these fears, it is the commitment of suicide and of themselves and any of the society they live. This is the general picture of the society the christians build and its suicide is the break of its coherence, through their movement from a fantastic world to another fantastic world, the asceticism of the numerous of monks and priests inside the monasteries, and churches, and in the end when the reality comes for showing its harsh face, they are the same that lead the societies to the decadence and the destruction.

"Christians have just to have faith. And this is probably the cause Christians won".

For their faith, and its consequences, I explained as above, that is on fears. As for the victory and the won... I wonder what they really won ? Pride, respect, dignity, eudaemonia, pure pleasure, freedom, bravery, isonomia, isigoria, isigonia, isokratia, isopsyfia, and isotimia ? Someone has to be blind to not see to where they lead our western societies: to a caricature of Democracy for which they're boasting about and around, for spreading and this motto as the coldman sucks said it :"we do God's work", for leading the societies to the worse that are the endless debts that give birth to the ideologies of fascism and its barbarism.

"Think about everything, be ready to explain our reasons is far harder than saying: "God said that". And people are lazy and sometimes stupid too".

Yes, laziness, lethargy, anesthesia, and stupidity these were the main issues that Epicurus fought against in his era that the phenomena were similar like today, but not so damaging than today due to the monotheistic religions and the motto "we are doing God's work". No, the greeks did not say "gods says this and that". They said we say this and that and we are doing this and that. Man is the measure of all things - Protagoras. For this reason, Epicurus won the day, and every brave spirit was an epicurean and in Greece and in Rome. There were numerous of Epicureans and Gardens all over the ecumene. But christians' and Judaistic religions' battle was not Man to Man, but was a battle with cunning that lead to the destruction of all the ancient temples and those symbols that led the humans to lose their identity and pride of what they really were and what was their real goal in their one and unique life.

On friendship and love, we the epicureans we do not think about anything more or less, since we grasp the concept of the words directly and without mistake along with its first principle that is the common benefit and the common goal of pleasure that sprung from inner self-sufficient man spontaneously and automatically, like the swerve that is our freedom and bravery to choose with cleverness among many options. The opportunity is here and now, and it has to not be lost again. The opportunity is for a transvaluation to all the fake values, because without Epicurus and his greek spirit, we will be lost again in the darkness of the abyss as it has been lost in the medieval ages.

P.S. Dear Michelle, many thanks for your efforts to spread the right message of epicurean philosophy, and I hope in the festival there would be a reference to some of my above thoughts, by honest men and women as speakers.

A notice by me to the author of the book. Dear Michelle, I read in the synopsis of your book this sentence: "un incontro impossibile fra due grandi spiriti, quello greco, ancora pagano, e quello cristiano".

I totally agree with you that the "incontro" (encounter) and the mixture between them is impossible.

Grande spirito christiano, that means : The great spirit of christianism. I have a question : Which were these ideas that came by christianism to be considered from epicureans as great ?

quello greco, ancora pagano that means : That greek one, still pagan. This characterization for the greek cosmotheasis as paganism and the people as pagans, as well as, idolatres show how disrespectful were the people who tried to keep their customs. All these characterizations came by christianism and the christians.

But anyway, according to "the encounter between them is impossible", me, as a greek epicurean, addressed to them, I would like to say: What those gypsies and shepherds of the dessert are able to teach me, on how to milk goats and sheep? Who were those that were searching for 40 years a land that was so near by to them, and they called it "EDEN" ? They say that this word "EDEN" derived from the word "HEDONE" and means "delight/pleasure". They were searching for pleasure for 40 years, and it was in front of them, but still they give me the impression that are searching pleasure till our days.

Here is an interesting article on the webpage of YSEE, by a historian Chris Aldridge https://www.ysee.gr/aldridge.html

What a great news. Does this event hold/happen for the first time ? Michelle you made me really happy and wishing to all of you to have for this event such a success for becoming also an institution that will be followed by the people every year.

As for my presence at this event, sorry it is not possible, since this period of time my son will be married, and a lot of supportive issues for that day have to be done by me too.

Cassius the museums protection laws did not expire. They are still nowadays, as they also forbid the visitors taking pictures of the finds inside the museums. I think it is the same in the museums of the USA. We are in their disposal, maybe in their research on the marketing, if they will have sufficient income of the reproducing of copies of the finds, for the purpose to buy them as individuals. Museum's goal is the profit and the income, what else could be ? Since, the expenses for the excavations, for paying salaries of workers, archeologists, safe-guards, the sculptors for making copies of the finds, as well as, for all the expenses of the buildings of the museums are enormous.

The only we have to do is to make through emails for sending many requests to the managers of the museums (usually the managers are archeologists that working for the state), asking for the reproduction of our epicurean finds and to declare them that we are many buyers, from all over the world, that have a willing to buy them through internet and an eshop.

The graphic is a gif that is moving. https://data.photofunky.net/output/image/0…/photofunky.gif

Elayne, frankly this is outstanding. Eύγε/Bravo and that is because you also give many examples which show how much rightly you have grasped and the concepts of greek words as ataraxia, aponia, autarkea, and eudaemonia that describe only the pleasure that is a feeling which springs from the inner self and can be preserved and feed back with the presence and the safety that we share with our friends. The first principle of friendship is the common benefit and through the empathy we are able to understand and to help/benefit each other in life.

I promise that when I 'll have free time I translate it into greek language to become known among the greek epicurean friends. It is like to hear some of them saying : hooray, we found an epicurean lady who lives abroad and without knowing the language of gods, she understood perfectly what Epicurus had said. Yes, we found such an artist who knows the most important art that is: " to live like a goddess among men". And that's all folks http://pf.gy/0b9c5f

AND HERE IS THE WHOLE ISSUE : We have to understand what were the issues that Epicurus had confronted, in his era, - and not only in his era, but what issues we have to confront in our era too - and we have to realize also that the following is only a small excerpt of what Epicurus had heard and read about philosophical issues.

Here is a small excerpt by Aristotle's Eudemia that is taught by theologians and philologists inside the greek schools, till today (sick).

"It is said that the virtue of temperance concerns pleasures and sorrows, but it is actually limited to the first (pleasures). Initially, the pleasures of the intellect are excluded, for the people who become slaves of them they are never characterized as profligates/punishable (my note : WOW and thrice WOW). Also, the pleasures of vision, hearing, and smell are excluded. The virtue of temperance concerns only those sensations that provide direct enjoyment to both inferior animals and humans, namely touch and taste. Besides, not all the pleasures of touch and taste are included, but only the purely of inferior animal ones (my note: oh, my goodness, here Aristotle separates the senses of touch and taste in lower and upper level !!!), and those are the pleasures from food, drink and aphrodisiacs (my note lower are the pleasures for food, drink and aphrodisiacs, so you are going straight to asceticism).

The only sorrows that are concerned with the temperance are those due to the unfulfilled desire for these pleasures. The ideal life, according to Aristotle, lies in the action that corresponds to the virtue of wisdom: ":«ὡστ' εἴη ἀν ἡ εὐδαιμονία θεωρία τις» and that means : that the goal of eudeamonia is for theorizing on the view (contemplation) of the Absolute Truth about the eternal being (THE GOD). (My note : ABSOLUTE TRUTH, JUSTICE, and GOD only in their stupid head had existed, exists and will exist).

After the reference in the above, the teacher inside the schools makes the parallelism with the following excerpt by saint Maximos. And here we the epicureans understand the root of the decadence that is followed by the stoicism and its evolution the christianism.

Saint Maximos ("his holly grace"), he directly inspired by the Socratic-Platonic and Aristotelian philosophy, argues that: in

order to succeed the knowledge of God and virtue, there are many that are demanded, such as discharge from passions/emotions, patience in temptations, virtues logoi (my note : virtues logoi are the mere opinions, empty beliefs to which are due to the greatest disturbance of our mind/soul), realization of modes of salvation, disconnection of the mood of the soul from the flesh, alienation of feeling from its relation to the senses, perfect departure of the mind from all creations and generally all that contribute to abstaining from evil and ignorance, since without the synergy of Grace of God, the virtues lose their true meaning, but without the consent of the believer, the grace of God remains fruitless.

(My note : I have anything more to say, I remain shocking and speechless !!!)

Elayne, please if you would like make the statement that [aponia] and [ataraxia] are words that give the description of the magnitude of the limits of pleasure, and for making more clear the description, make a reference of the PD3, as it was translated in my above text.

PD 3 on the limits of pleasure serves as the cornerstone for all further elaborations on the Epicurean understanding of pleasure and pain: the limit of the various, particular pleasures is the relief of the respective, corresponding "pains". For this, epicureans do not speak about "moderation" and "golden rule", but they always speak about limits, that are personal.

For the epicurean understanding of both, what is meant here is neither the ecstasy of delight nor the agony of torture, but the natural everyday activities of our personal experiences. For example, once one has eaten enough, one is no longer hungry. Logically, for as long as one continues to feel full, one is not hungry; nor, of course, can one feel both sated and hungry all at once. Since there is a graduation for this of our bodily procedure. Epicurus closes the argument snugly with a glaring reduction ad absurdum.

As well as, he goes on a crucial tangent, saying that this very same principle applies not only to pain in the strictly physical sense, but also to "that which causes sadness", or mental/emotional distress. This analogy between e.g. the "pain" of hunger and the "pain-trouble" of anxiety, or stress, or grief, has momentous ramifications in Epicurean ethics. Since, for Epicurus, the body/mind/soul is one and the same thing.

Epicurus' says that pleasure is as easily attainable as satiety in the course of attending to our everyday, natural needs: we can "fill" ourselves with ongoing emotional wellness just as easily as (and provided that) we can satisfy our hunger, thirst, and need of shelter and safety on a daily basis. The main core of this doctrine is that - through our sober reasoning - when we banish mere opinions and empty beliefs to which are due to the greatest disturbance of our mind/soul, so then, it's easy to understand consciously what makes us feel pleased and bliss.

Our epicurean friend Elayne wrote : They can have what is clinically termed "alexithymia", inability to describe a feeling.

WOW ! "alexithymia"... that's a greek word of that clinical situation that can also give the "apathy" of the stoics and stoicism. HA

Alexithymia :

"Alex" means "I repel" or "I push back". That's how we have and that name "Alex+ander" that means I repel, or I push back "men".

and "thymos-thymia" which means [ the emotion] or [the passion]. "Alexithymia" means I repel my emotions, and that's the same with APATHY which means I uproot, I push back my emotions. And why I am in the clinical situation of apathy or alexthymia? Because "ex apalon onychon" i.e. from childhood, something enforced me to not make properly the measurement among pleasure and pain, something did not make me clear where are my limits among pleasure and pain, and of others limits too. Something enforced me to do my "duty", and accepting my "fate" or "necessity". And that "something" is an authenticity i.e. my parents and then people - as leaders - of my social environment, and this is NOT for purpose to lead myself and others in pleasure and happiness, but for being a virtuous guy.

And now for a+taraxia that goes along with a+ponia.

this (a) means [without]

ataraxia means without agitation.

aponia means without pain.

ataraxia and aponia are words that describe the limits of magnitude of pleasures i.e. the situation that consciously I understand/feel with my body/mind/soul as the feeling of pleasure.

Again the PD 3 : The limit of magnitude of the pleasures is the removal of everything painful, wherever there is pleasure, however long it may present there no pain or sadness of both together.

Or

Pleasure reaches its maximum limit at the removal of all sources of pain. When such pleasure is present, for as long it lasts, there is no cause of physical nor mental pain present – nor of both together.

Or with the fg 423 Epicurus addressed to peripatetics : "What brings unsurpassed joy is the removal of a great evil; and this is the nature of the good, if you apply your mind rightly and then stand firm, and do not stroll about chattering emptily" .

Like the words "aponia" and "ataraxia", in greek language, we have the word "a+lithea". This "a" means [without] , and "lithe" which means [oblivion]. "Alithea" means the situation that is without oblivion. And in english is given with the word "truth". For the word "lithe" [oblivion] in english and greek languages the synonym words are "unconsciousness", "insensibility", "a stupor" "stupefaction", "senselessness", "a coma", "a blackout". That's why we call senses and feelings the criteria of "alithea" [truth] inside the methodology of the epicurean Canon.