Posts by Cassius

I've not attempted to read much into Horace's background; probably it would be good somewhere to list some links to good references to his life beyond just wikipedia. Surely there will be some articles too which explore specifically his Epicurean aspects. I believe I remember reading that Horace had perhaps been a soldier on the Republican side at Philippi? OK:

"Rome's troubles following the assassination of Julius Caesar were soon to catch up with him. Marcus Junius Brutus came to Athens seeking support for the republican cause. Brutus was fêted around town in grand receptions and he made a point of attending academic lectures, all the while recruiting supporters among the young men studying there, including Horace. An educated young Roman could begin military service high in the ranks and Horace was made tribunus militum (one of six senior officers of a typical legion), a post usually reserved for men of senatorial or equestrian rank and which seems to have inspired jealousy among his well-born confederates. He learned the basics of military life while on the march, particularly in the wilds of northern Greece, whose rugged scenery became a backdrop to some of his later poems. It was there in 42 BC that Octavian (later Augustus) and his associate Mark Antony crushed the republican forces at the Battle of Philippi. Horace later recorded it as a day of embarrassment for himself, when he fled without his shield, but allowance should be made for his self-deprecating humour. Moreover, the incident allowed him to identify himself with some famous poets who had long ago abandoned their shields in battle, notably his heroes Alcaeus and Archilochus. The comparison with the latter poet is uncanny: Archilochus lost his shield in a part of Thrace near Philippi, and he was deeply involved in the Greek colonization of Thasos, where Horace's die-hard comrades finally surrendered."

Also I see there is a reference to Suetonius' "Life of Horace" (Latin, but we need English ) Loeb (limited access)

Here we go - Life of Horace at LacusCurtius

Interesting thought to look for parallels like that. Here is the Munro edition of the final passage of Book VI

Along with the opening:

That's a great question that I am far from resolving to my own satisfaction.

Both the way it ends as the end of the chapter, and as the end of the book, seems questionable, but not so stark that the issue is clear. I'd have to go back and compare the details of the way the first five chapters close, but the way the details of the plague of Athens are recited without quite as much commentary seems to me to indicated it might have been intended to have a special impact fitting for the end.

On the other hand there seem to be references sprinkled in the poem to more discussion of the gods to come, which never seems to appear.

So at the moment I personally tend to think that while the chapter ends well enough as a chapter (in comparison with the way the other chapters end), I'm not convinced that Lucretius planned it to be the end of the book as a whole.

I too would be very interested in the reactions of others.

Welcome, Epicurusleif, and thank you for taking the initiative to introduce yourself! I hope you will enjoy your time with us an will post on any topic of interest to you!

Thank you Jnamiotka!

If you are a new student of Epicurus, Norman DeWitt’s “Epicurus and His Philosophy” is one of the first books you want to read. The book does not appear to be currently in print, but hard copies can be found at various stores across the internet, and reasonably priced copies can regularly be found at Ebay (tip – avoid the “new” reprints which are more expensive). The book is also available in PDF and Epub formats. A preview at Google Books can be found by clicking here. Another link where the book is available as of 12/2/20 is here. A short bio of Norman DeWitt is here.

DeWitt’s essay “Philosophy for the Millions” is available here at EpicureanFriends, and it summarizes some of the key aspects of DeWitt’s perspective. However the book is far more detailed, and it provides the best organized and most sympathetic presentation of Epicurean Philosophy you will find anywhere.

“Epicurus And His Philosophy” is one of the best antidotes you will to the dramatic misinterpretations that permeate most modern interpretations of Epicurus. If you haven’t read it, you haven’t read a reliable presentation of Epicurean Philosophy by a modern scholar.

OLDER DISCUSSION OF DISCORD READING GROUP:

Please consider joining us for online live discussion of Norman DeWitt's "Epicurus And His Philosophy" - All of our sessions are informal discussions for those who are interested in learning more about Epicurean philosophy - no expertise required!

A discussion outline for each session will be posted here in the EpicureanFriends forum

For links to the discord group go directly here: https://l.facebook.com/l.php?u=https%…qgNvYdgMdp1xqew

Or follow this easier to remember link: http://www.newepicurean.com/discordapp

Start time is subject to change depending on who can attend and conflicts with other events. An announcement for the next meeting will be found in the Announcement Box at the top of the Forum home page and Dashboard. For the latest discussion of time and date and other details, please go to the thread for the particular chapter: Discussion Plan For Norman DeWitt's "Epicurus And His Philosophy"

Our current dates and time are set to allow maximum participation both in the USA and in Europe. All scheduling is open to revision depending on participants, and once we complete one cycle through the book we expect to do this on a regular basis, and we can set dates and times accordingly.

Thanks for your participation!

I have posted a notice for the next DeWitt Chapter chat to be Saturday August 18th at 6PM Eastern. This will be Chapter 11 - "Soul, Sensation, and Mind." If anyone has conflicts and would prefer that we reschedule for another date or time, please post here.

I have posted a notice for the next DeWitt Chapter chat to be Saturday August 18th at 6PM Eastern. This will be Chapter 11 - "Soul, Sensation, and Mind." If anyone has conflicts and would prefer that we reschedule for another date or time, please post here.

I have posted a notice for the next DeWitt Chapter chat to be Saturday August 18th at 6PM Eastern. This will be Chapter 11 - "Soul, Sensation, and Mind." If anyone has conflicts and would prefer that we reschedule for another date or time, please post here.

Amid hopes and cares, amid fears and passions, believe that every day that has dawned is your last. Gratefully will arrive to you another hour unhoped for. As for me, when you want a laugh, you will see me in fine state, fat and flourishing, a hog from Epicurus's herd.

- Quintus Horatius Flaccus - Letter to Tibullus

jnamiotka - I know this is not Lucretius, but if you are up for it, I would be appreciative of your commentary on the passage from Horace which I see frequently quoted, but which I have always wondered as to the most literal way to translate. The above version is the one I have featured on the sidebar of this forum, but if it can be improved in accuracy it would be good to do that.

From wikipedia: https://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Horace

For example the "true" in "true hog" probably does not appear in the Latin.

The version at Epicurus.net is http://www.epicurus.net/en/tibullus.html -

Amid hopes and cares, amid fears and passions, believe that every day that has dawned is your last. Gratefully will arrive to you another hour unhoped for. As for me, when you want a laugh, you will see me in fine state, fat and flourishing, a hog from Epicurus's herd.

Another version (unclear as to name of translator): http://www.authorama.com/works-of-horace-8.html --

When you have a mind to laugh, you shall see me fat and sleek with good keeping, a hog of Epicurus’ herd.

Another version ("Letters of Horace Presented to Modern Readers")

A follow-on observation about working with (1) the choice of attitude and also (2) the choice in the particular instance:

(page 193 of the text)

On page 186 of his text, DeWitt cites this interesting quote from Diogenes of Oinoanda: "The secret of happiness is in the diathesis, of which we are sole arbiters." The quote is cited as fragment 57 from the inscription, but apparently a different numbering system is being used by Martin Ferguson Smith here, nor do I find the numbering to be the same in Chilton's "Diogenes of Oenoanda - The Fragments." Both of these works post-date DeWitt, so he must have been working from another source. Does anyone know a good cite for this or know the equivalent in Smith's translation?

Jnamniota: Actually I had not seen that list, or not recently enough to remember it. Thank you! I see it lists the translator as anonymous so apparently the translator is not a mystery only to me. I presume it's not Lucy Hutchinson since one of the plates does say "a new translation" and it appears her was almost one hundred years previously.

"If you're wondering about any particular passages in DRN, I'd be very happy to take a crack at them: just send them my way!" < I will take you up on that offer!

Some years ago I came across on Youtube this Latin poem "A Thousand Kisses" by Catullus sung in a catchy updated style. It has stuck with me ever since. Too bad, isn't it, that we don't have someone qualified to set some Lucretius to music like this?

[As Martin pointed out, not exactly "punk rock" as referenced on the youtube page, is it?]

Probably of all Lucretius this passage below would be one of the most useful ones to set to music, or even just to have someone read the Latin in an engaging modern way:

For those who prefer their "s" and "f" in a modern font, also with slight changes in the text. (note for example in the last line obteritur vs opteritur). This is Munro:

Also, Jnamiotka, I am not enough of a Greek scholar to understand the reference in your user name. What does it mean?

Thank you for being here jnamiotka and thank you for the background info! Most of us here are not trained professionals like yourself, so your expertise is very valuable here in addition to your classroom. There are many questions to ask over time, especially about Lucretius, but this one pops to mind due to my present attention to transcribing it:

Have you come across in the past the 1734 English edition of Lucretius published by "Daniel Browne" as linked here: https://www.epicureanfriends.com/wiki/doku.php?…ature_of_things

I have just a little formal training in Latin, and not nearly enough to trust my own translations, so in substitute I rely on cross-checking passages between Bailey, Munro, Martin Ferguson Smith, and anyone else I can find who I believe is trustworthy enough to consider. I recently came across this 1734 edition and find it to be pretty useful, but it frustrates me that I am not able to cite the translator - Daniel Browne apparently being the publisher. It's hard for me to believe that the title page and intro seem to make no reference to the translator.

I should mention I am also aware of the Creech translation, which I think was owned by Jefferson (maybe he had the Daniel Browne too) but I haven't yet tried to transcribe it, and if I remember correctly at those times I looked at it, the English didn't seem particularly better in any way than the others I've cited above.

I've focused primarily on those old enough now to be in the public domain, as being freely usable, plus that of Martin Ferguson Smith, which I suspect might be the current champion for accuracy. If you teach Lucretius and have any comment on translations I would love to hear it.

To continue that last thought, my concern is that we are sort of "spread too thin" in our current internet efforts, or maybe worse, my concern is that Epicurean philosophy has been so intellectualized due to prevailing Stoic/Platonic attitudes that we don't even understand anymore what has been lost. The idea that spending all our time intellectualizing and debating fine points of the philosophy without actually taking any realistic steps to apply it is probably something Epicurus would find appalling, and would see as the victory of his main opponents.

Hi JAWS and good to hear from you. This is a good general question that people can give input on over time, and what I am about to say may be too specific to me (as a "blogger") and time-limited, but it's on my mind:

(1) In general, I keep up my reading by regularly going back over some of the core material, such as Lucretius and the Diogenes Laertius biography. I don't like to get too focused on the commentaries because I want to make up my own mind about what it means. Continuing to re-read the original texts reminds me that these were real people who lived this and not just professional pundits like we have today.

(2) Another thing that keeps all this real to me is to stay in touch with others on the internet. This is the department where I am not happy with the current situation. I don't think Facebook is really productive, but we don't have enough "critical mass" here on this forum yet - hopefully that will change but frequency of people posting isn't nearly as much as I would like to see. I doubt that will change until there is more "live" activity through audio interaction -- that can be saved and videos added to youtube and that will generate more interest over time, but we're not there yet.

(3) Those first two comments may not seem to address "practicing" Epicurean philosophy but in my case I do see it that way. Studying and discussing the philosophy is enjoyable in itself, and it's not necessary just to see Epicureanism as justification for a life of fishing and surfboarding (for example). For me, the activity or working together with people to promote the Epicurean outlook is just about all the reward I need.

(4) You probably saw we've had several recent threads about "politics." I do think that "practicing" Epicurean philosophy means applying it to real life, and I think an important part of that is working together with other people, not just reading about it and using it personally to relieve personal anxieties and assist in personal planning. I see those as very important, but I also think that the way events have evolved (over the long term of centuries, I mean) people who think in Epicurean terms have been marginalized to the fringes of society, and I think it's time to "push back" I intend to continue to explore ways to do that both online and in "local" ways, and frankly I expect that study and effort to be among the most rewarding ways to "practice" Epicurean philosophy.

Welcome jnamiotka! When you get a chance please introduce yourself and let is know about your background in Epicurus and areas of interest. Thank you for joining us!