Others may have better suggestions than I do. I don't recall that we have a podcast on that, but there is book devoted to something close to that -- "The Sculpted Word" by Bernard Frischer, which discusses Epicurean use of art in portraying Epicurus.
Posts by Cassius
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Thanks for your response. I will talk with the other moderators about inviting you to something soon. In the meantime, I can recommend that you look into the LucretiusToday podcast here at the forum and on all podcast sources. We regularly have three to four of our members here participating in that, and I think it would give you a very good idea of what live discussions might be like. The podcast is edited and much more structured than our live meetings, where we devote much of the time to questions and exchange of ideas, but it sounds like the podcast might fit the bill for what you are looking for. On our main page we have a number of sample episodes highlighted which would be a good place to start.
You might want to check out in particular our 200th episode special where we talked about where we have been and where we are going.
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Kalosyni thanks for adding that. Bryan, those names are supposed to be in roughly date order, with Epicurus at the top and the newest names at the bottom. Where would you locate Apollodorus? Let us know and we will reorder.
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Thanks Bryan. In terms of setting up subforums, an administrator (Probably me or Kalosyni) will need to do that.
Let us know who else might be good to add and we'll do it, or at the very least set up a single thread for each one under a "general" section.
We'll get that done.
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ceiltechbladhm thank you for your post and welcome to the forum. So that we can have a free exchange of information among people who are known to be friendly to Epicurean ideas, we ask that people establish themselves in the forum before being invited to participate in a live event. Our Zooms help us to establish a community of friends as much or more than they serve a teaching function, so we've found this process to be important.
We also have a "First Monday" meeting each month that we reserve for meeting new people who want to attend the zooms.
Please let us know about your background and interest in Epicurus and we'll move forward from there.
Thanks again for posting.
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I split this off from the prolepsis thread thread as Don raises an issue I think is very important. I don't contend that I am sure of the right answer myself, so I think we need to flesh out even what the question means.
I think all of us as Don says are familiar with Plato having alleged that the senses are incapable of allowing us to attain truth, which exists only in ideal forms, and Aristotle being largely in the same place but saying "essences" exist in this world.
But Don has focused on whether Epicurus held that there is an "objective" truth:
While I agree "idealist truth" doesn't exist in the form of some Platonic ideal, truth as in the truth of existing things does exist. I would call that objective truth. The difference is "Is it true pigs exist?" Vs "Is it true that ice cream tastes good?" The first is the objective truth Epicurus was concerned with in using his Criteria. The second is subjective and contextual. If one starts questioning the truth of the existence of pigs, one rapidly devolves into a Socratic nightmare: "What do you mean by a 'pig'?" To my understanding, Epicurus stands on it being true that there is an objective reality with which we interact with our sensations.
What does it mean to say that there is an "objective truth?"
Is Epicurean canonics concerned with establishing "objective truth"?
I think there are some citations on this point that we can collect, and then of course there are many deep arguments that can be pursued.
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Welcome ceiltechbladhm
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This forum is the place for students of Epicurus to coordinate their studies and work together to promote the philosophy of Epicurus. Please remember that all posting here is subject to our Community Standards and associated Terms of Use. Please be sure to read that document to understand our ground rules.
Please understand that the leaders of this forum are well aware that many fans of Epicurus may have sincerely-held views of what Epicurus taught that are incompatible with the purposes and standards of this forum. This forum is dedicated exclusively to the study and support of people who are committed to classical Epicurean views. As a result, this forum is not for people who seek to mix and match Epicurean views with positions that are inherently inconsistent with the core teachings of Epicurus.
All of us who are here have arrived at our respect for Epicurus after long journeys through other philosophies, and we do not demand of others what we were not able to do ourselves. Epicurean philosophy is very different from most other philosophies, and it takes time to understand how deep those differences really are. That's why we have membership levels here at the forum which allow for new participants to discuss and develop their own learning, but it's also why we have standards that will lead in some cases to arguments being limited, and even participants being removed, when the purposes of the community require it. Epicurean philosophy is not inherently democratic, or committed to unlimited free speech, or devoted to any other form of organization other than the pursuit of truth and happy living through pleasure as explained in the principles of Epicurean philosophy.
One way you can be assured of your time here will be productive is to tell us a little about yourself and your background in reading Epicurean texts. It would also be helpful if you could tell us how you found this forum, and any particular areas of interest that you already have.
You can also check out our Getting Started page for ideas on how to use this website.
We have found over the years that there are a number of key texts and references which most all serious students of Epicurus will want to read and evaluate for themselves. Those include the following.
"Epicurus and His Philosophy" by Norman DeWitt
The Biography of Epicurus by Diogenes Laertius. This includes the surviving letters of Epicurus, including those to Herodotus, Pythocles, and Menoeceus.
"On The Nature of Things" - by Lucretius (a poetic abridgement of Epicurus' "On Nature"
"Epicurus on Pleasure" - By Boris Nikolsky
The chapters on Epicurus in Gosling and Taylor's "The Greeks On Pleasure."
Cicero's "On Ends" - Torquatus Section
Cicero's "On The Nature of the Gods" - Velleius Section
The Inscription of Diogenes of Oinoanda - Martin Ferguson Smith translation
A Few Days In Athens" - Frances Wright
Lucian Core Texts on Epicurus: (1) Alexander the Oracle-Monger, (2) Hermotimus
Philodemus "On Methods of Inference" (De Lacy version, including his appendix on relationship of Epicurean canon to Aristotle and other Greeks)
"The Greeks on Pleasure" -Gosling & Taylor Sections on Epicurus, especially the section on katastematic and kinetic pleasure which explains why ultimately this distinction was not of great significance to Epicurus.
It is by no means essential or required that you have read these texts before participating in the forum, but your understanding of Epicurus will be much enhanced the more of these you have read. Feel free to join in on one or more of our conversation threads under various topics found throughout the forum, where you can to ask questions or to add in any of your insights as you study the Epicurean philosophy.
And time has also indicated to us that if you can find the time to read one book which will best explain classical Epicurean philosophy, as opposed to most modern "eclectic" interpretations of Epicurus, that book is Norman DeWitt's Epicurus And His Philosophy.
(If you have any questions regarding the usage of the forum or finding info, please post any questions in this thread).
Welcome to the forum!
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I very much agree Patrikios, just like people differ in their sense of taste or smell or what they find pleasurable. A test of "truth" cannot and I would say therefore does not mean a test of "absolute" or "true for everyone" truth. Some truths are more widely applicable than others but given the nature of the universe all truths are contextual. Absolute Platonic idealist truth does not exist and it is a false standard to act as if it does.
I would also say this relates to not letting the perfect be the enemy of the good.
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Our recent discussions on Prolepsis, combined with the observation that our participants on Sundays in recent weeks have been some of our newest visitors, tells me that it would be a good idea for us to cycle through the most basic principles of Epicurean philosophy and emphasize how they are still relevant to modern life.
In recent months we've completed podcast episodes on each topic, so in addition to the written summaries we have here, we have close to an hour of pre-recorded discussion to which we can refer on each one.
Let's start at the top with "Nothing Can Be Created From Nothing." Like prolepsis, this is an aspect of basic theory that some may think is unrelated to modern life, but we'll discuss how Epicurus' chain of reasoning on this point remains key to the foundations of the entire doctrine, including the ethical conclusions.
We've mentioned that in many episodes of Lucretius Today, of course, but we devoted a full episode to it here:
The links above also lead to this slideshow, and since that go through each of them again, in live discussion, on Sunday:
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Welcome back Root/Adrastus! Yes we definitely are still having zoom meetings, and good to hear you are working on your own writing. I encourage everyone here to do that as the best way to learn something yourself is to work on explaining it to other people. Good to have you back.
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I suspect that either Joshua or Eikadistes or both have included notable / infamous dates in the suppression of "paganism," closing of the schools, destruction of the temples, etc.
I would like to see us have a timetable of those major events so we could begin to form a mental outline about the most significant of them. Maybe one of them already knows of such a listing / timeline.
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I recall when I read some of these chapters many years ago, and listened to them on the Audible.com version, that Gibbon can be very sarcastic/ironic. It will therefore pay for readers to keep that in mind and not accept everything he says on face value, especially if English is not your first language. Some of that irony is probably easier to detect in the Audible version.
For example, in the outline above there is a reference to "the moral purity and discipline of Christian communities." I gathered in reading some of those references that it was very debatable whether he was serious or sarcastic about that.
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Edward Gibbon's The History of the Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire is a monumental work, and his discussion of Christianity's role in the fall of the Roman Empire is notable and controversial. Gibbon's analysis, particularly in Chapters 15 and 16 (end of Volume 1 and beginning of Volume 2), is most often cited for attributing a significant role to Christianity in the decline of the Roman Empire. Below is a breakdown of the relevant sections:
Key Chapters
- Chapter 15: The Progress of the Christian Religion, and the Sentiments, Manners, Numbers, and Condition of the Primitive Christians
- In this chapter, Gibbon examines the rise and spread of Christianity within the Roman Empire. He discusses the zeal, organization, and growth of early Christian communities, suggesting that their spread contributed to a shift in societal values.
- Gibbon argues that Christianity's emphasis on spiritual concerns, pacifism, and otherworldly focus undermined the martial spirit and civic virtues that had sustained Roman strength. He also highlights the intolerance of Christians toward pagan practices, which disrupted the religious pluralism of the empire.
- Key Point: Gibbon suggests that Christianity's rise weakened traditional Roman institutions by diverting loyalty from the state to the Church.
- In Chapter 15, Gibbon lists five causes for the rapid spread of Christianity:
- The inflexible zeal of Christians.
- The doctrine of a future life, which appealed to the masses.
- Alleged miracles that bolstered Christian credibility.
- The moral purity and discipline of Christian communities.
- The organized ecclesiastical structure of the Church. These factors, while explaining Christianity's success, are framed as diverting the empire's focus from secular to religious priorities.
- Chapter 16: The Conduct of the Roman Government Towards the Christians, from the Reign of Nero to that of Constantine
- This chapter focuses on the persecution of Christians and their eventual triumph under Constantine. Gibbon explores how Christianity's growth, despite persecution, led to its institutionalization as the state religion.
- He argues that the adoption of Christianity by the Roman state under Constantine and later emperors shifted resources and attention to religious disputes, weakening the empire's ability to address external threats and internal instability.
- Gibbon also critiques the dogmatic disputes within Christianity, suggesting that theological conflicts (e.g., Arianism vs. orthodoxy) consumed energy that could have been directed toward governance or defense.
Other Relevant Sections
- Chapter 20 (on Constantine's conversion) and parts of Volume 2 touch on the consequences of Christianity becoming the state religion, including the redirection of imperial resources to church-building and religious councils.
- Gibbon's discussion in later chapters, such as those covering the reigns of Theodosius (e.g., Chapter 27), further elaborates on how the establishment of Christianity as the sole religion suppressed pagan traditions and contributed to cultural and political shifts.
Why These Chapters Are Famous
- Chapters 15 and 16 are particularly famous because they were highly controversial when published (1776–1788). Gibbon's Enlightenment-era skepticism and critical tone toward Christianity provoked strong reactions from religious readers, who saw his work as an attack on the faith.
- His arguments in these chapters are often cited in debates about the role of religion in societal decline, making them some of the most discussed and critiqued sections of the work.
History of the Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire — Volume 1www.gutenberg.org - Chapter 15: The Progress of the Christian Religion, and the Sentiments, Manners, Numbers, and Condition of the Primitive Christians
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I don't have access to any English version on this, but if the wikipedia article is correct this work deserves a thread of its own:
Kriminalgeschichte des Christentums - Wikipedia
Kriminalgeschichte des Christentums (In English Criminal History of Christianity) is the main work of the author and church critic Karlheinz Deschner. It describes the misconduct attributed to various Christian churches, denominations, sects, and leagues, as well as its representatives and Christian sovereigns during Christian history. The work covers the entire history of Christianity from its biblical beginnings until the present. It was published in ten volumes beginning in 1986, with the final volume appearing in March 2013.[1]
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This is a subject I don't know much about and think it would help us to discuss more. I therefore want to dramatically expand this discussion. We'll set up a separate forum for History and have a section for the conflict between monotheism and Epicurean and other non-monotheistic cultures. I'll change the title of this thread to make it more descriptive, and we can add other threads for other similar works.
When we set up the Forum section, we'll set up threads (or subforums) for at least the following works:
The Rise and Fall of Alexandria, by Justin Pollard and Howard Reid
There are a few chapters in this book that deal with the rise of Christianity, the murder of Hypatia, and the destruction of the Serapeum. The decline of Alexandria was also captured by the mournful verses of the pagan poet Palladus: "Is it not true that we are dead, and living only in appearance, we Hellenes, fallen on disaster, likening life to a dream, for while we remain alive our way of life is dead and gone."
- Gibbon's Decline and Fall (Sections on the rise of Christianity and its contribution to the fall of Rome)
Historia Ecclesiastica, by Socrates Scholasticus
A history of the church written by a Christian living in the 5th century
Criminal History of Christianity - (German work by Karlheinz Deschner (1986-2013))
If anyone is aware of similar books/works that should be included, please post.
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Welcome Adrastus
There is one last step to complete your registration:
All new registrants must post a response to this message here in this welcome thread (we do this in order to minimize spam registrations).
You must post your response within 24 hours, or your account will be subject to deletion.
Please say "Hello" by introducing yourself, tell us what prompted your interest in Epicureanism and which particular aspects of Epicureanism most interest you, and/or post a question.
This forum is the place for students of Epicurus to coordinate their studies and work together to promote the philosophy of Epicurus. Please remember that all posting here is subject to our Community Standards and associated Terms of Use. Please be sure to read that document to understand our ground rules.
Please understand that the leaders of this forum are well aware that many fans of Epicurus may have sincerely-held views of what Epicurus taught that are incompatible with the purposes and standards of this forum. This forum is dedicated exclusively to the study and support of people who are committed to classical Epicurean views. As a result, this forum is not for people who seek to mix and match Epicurean views with positions that are inherently inconsistent with the core teachings of Epicurus.
All of us who are here have arrived at our respect for Epicurus after long journeys through other philosophies, and we do not demand of others what we were not able to do ourselves. Epicurean philosophy is very different from most other philosophies, and it takes time to understand how deep those differences really are. That's why we have membership levels here at the forum which allow for new participants to discuss and develop their own learning, but it's also why we have standards that will lead in some cases to arguments being limited, and even participants being removed, when the purposes of the community require it. Epicurean philosophy is not inherently democratic, or committed to unlimited free speech, or devoted to any other form of organization other than the pursuit of truth and happy living through pleasure as explained in the principles of Epicurean philosophy.
One way you can be assured of your time here will be productive is to tell us a little about yourself and your background in reading Epicurean texts. It would also be helpful if you could tell us how you found this forum, and any particular areas of interest that you already have.
You can also check out our Getting Started page for ideas on how to use this website.
We have found over the years that there are a number of key texts and references which most all serious students of Epicurus will want to read and evaluate for themselves. Those include the following.
"Epicurus and His Philosophy" by Norman DeWitt
The Biography of Epicurus by Diogenes Laertius. This includes the surviving letters of Epicurus, including those to Herodotus, Pythocles, and Menoeceus.
"On The Nature of Things" - by Lucretius (a poetic abridgement of Epicurus' "On Nature"
"Epicurus on Pleasure" - By Boris Nikolsky
The chapters on Epicurus in Gosling and Taylor's "The Greeks On Pleasure."
Cicero's "On Ends" - Torquatus Section
Cicero's "On The Nature of the Gods" - Velleius Section
The Inscription of Diogenes of Oinoanda - Martin Ferguson Smith translation
A Few Days In Athens" - Frances Wright
Lucian Core Texts on Epicurus: (1) Alexander the Oracle-Monger, (2) Hermotimus
Philodemus "On Methods of Inference" (De Lacy version, including his appendix on relationship of Epicurean canon to Aristotle and other Greeks)
"The Greeks on Pleasure" -Gosling & Taylor Sections on Epicurus, especially the section on katastematic and kinetic pleasure which explains why ultimately this distinction was not of great significance to Epicurus.
It is by no means essential or required that you have read these texts before participating in the forum, but your understanding of Epicurus will be much enhanced the more of these you have read. Feel free to join in on one or more of our conversation threads under various topics found throughout the forum, where you can to ask questions or to add in any of your insights as you study the Epicurean philosophy.
And time has also indicated to us that if you can find the time to read one book which will best explain classical Epicurean philosophy, as opposed to most modern "eclectic" interpretations of Epicurus, that book is Norman DeWitt's Epicurus And His Philosophy.
(If you have any questions regarding the usage of the forum or finding info, please post any questions in this thread).
Welcome to the forum!
-
My first comment would be that this synthesis is a complete adoption of the Diogenes Laertius position, which does not reflect the implications of what Cicero/Velleius says about it as being innate. It is difficult or impossible to reconcile it with what Epicurus says about prolepsis of the gods - Do we have a preconception of gods because each individual personally sees gods so many times?
My statement there doesn't mean that I have concluded that it is entirely wrong, just incomplete, especially if you take a very superficial reading of "Epicurus was an empiricist, meaning that he believed that all knowledge ultimately derives from the senses." At the very least, does instinctive behavior ultimately derive from the senses? I would say no to that and I think Epicurus would too, for which I would cite Lucretius' reference to the natures of various types of animals.
Quote
* **Meaning:** Prolepsis translates to "preconception," "anticipation," or "pre-notion." It refers to a basic, general concept or idea that has been formed in our minds through repeated sensory experiences.
* **Formation through Experience:** Epicurus was an empiricist, meaning he believed that all knowledge ultimately derives from the senses. Prolepseis are formed when repeated sensory inputs of a certain kind leave a lasting impression or "trace" in the mind. For example, by repeatedly encountering dogs, we form a prolepsis of "dog" – a general idea of what a dog is. -
Welcome Ulfilas and thank you for responding to this Welcome thread!
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Rolf to drop back to Don's comment in post 28 and his earlier comment about pleasures that you "get out of the way from," I've thought of another example of a type of pleasure that I think is applicable:
In addition to Epicurus saying that he found his own peace chiefly in the study of nature, which I would say clearly includes the philosophical debates about nature which we are discussing, there is another very good example in the opening of Book 2 of Lucretius:
Quote from Munro Version2-01
It is sweet, when on the great sea the winds trouble its waters, to behold from land another’s deep distress; not that it is a pleasure and delight that any should be afflicted, but because it is sweet to see from what evils you are yourself exempt. It is sweet also to look upon the mighty struggles of war arrayed along the plains without sharing yourself in the danger. But nothing is more welcome than to hold the lofty and serene positions well fortified by the learning of the wise, from which you may look down upon others and see them wandering all abroad and going astray in their search for the path of life, see the contest among them of intellect, the rivalry of birth, the striving night and day with surpassing effort to struggle up to the summit of power and be masters of the world.
O wretched are the thoughts of men! How blind their souls! In what dark roads they grope their way, in what distress is this life spent, short as it is! Don't you see Nature requires no more than the body free from pain, that she may enjoy the mind easy and cheerful, removed from care and fear?I would equate understanding the implication and the solution to radical skepticism in general, of which the Meno Paradox is part, to a good example of a part of what Lucretius is referring to as causing the wandering and going astray in the path of life. I say this from the point of view that you can't be confident that Nature does in fact no more than pleasure over pain, and you can't be removed from care and fear, if you don't think it is possible to be confident that these things are true, and that supernatural control and eternal punishment are false.
Now again - not everyone is bothered by the claims of philosophical skepticism or sees the immediate relevance to them. If they are not so bothered, then more power to them, but we likely would not have Epicurean philosophy to talk about in the first place if Epicurus and Metrodorus and Hermarchus and Lucretius and Diogenes of Oinoanda and Philodemus had not been bothered by them.
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