Posts by Cassius

As to the hypothetical you posed (I know you love hypotheticals!) first, you know that Frances Wright was a big anti-slavery agitator, correct? But that at least through her books she was looking for resolution short of war....

Anyway:

Quote from Don

Does this represent no injustice since enslaved people have no power to enter into a social agreement?

This kind of question takes us toward the logical conclusions, yes......

You are focusing on the "no power to enter in the agreement..." but it's probably the same thing to focus on the "unwilling" part, in that masters in slave societies throughout history are generally "unwilling" to enter into agreement to change that.

So when a slave murders a slaveholder, would justice be involved? I would say no, because there was no prior agreement by the slave that is violated, and even if somehow the slave had originally agreed (indentured servitude an example?) then Epicurus is still saying that the justice changes when the circumstances cease to be of benefit to the involved parties.

Another example might be the Greek slaves.... do I not recall they they where largely a conquered people? So presumably they too did not agree to become slaves, so there to a Helot (is that the name) killing his/her master would not be "unjust" or "just."

I want to reserve the right to revise these answers because I am answering them off the cuff, and no doubt there are tricky implications as with all hypotheticals, but I think the GENERAL point is that its very difficult to generalize about "an Epicurean" either northern or southern or modern or ancient. I think surely most people who admire Epicurus would agree that a state of freedom is far superior than a state of slavery, and therefore as to our family and friends we would certainly want freedom for them. As to ever-widening circles outward from that, no doubt the same generalization holds, but also I would think no doubt it weakens the further removed you are from the situation. Today you might pull out your guns and go attack anyone in your city who claimed the right to hold slaves, but we don't do the same think in those parts of the world today where the right to hold people in what is essentially slavery is also claimed even today.

I think a lot of this comes down to my prior comment that an Epicurean does not feel his emotions less than any other type of person - he feels them MORE deeply, and he's going to be willing to take action against what we detest MORE QUICKLY than a true Stoic would (thus the commentary in Sedley's "Ethics of Brutus and Cassius" that Brutus and Cassius did not bother trying to recruit Stoics into the conspiracy (or, at least, there were few Stoics involved was Sedley's point). So I think someone concerned about social injust need look no further than Cassius Longinus and Francis Wright as role models -- they can go hyper-Frances Wright and devote their entire lives to social reform, on the grounds of the pleasure that it gives them to do so - if they so choose. It's just that an Epicurean can't look to Plato's realm of ideas or to supernatural gods for "justification" for that decision.

Don also relevant to this discussion is the example of Frances Wright, which I think we discussed elsewhere. Although I have some concerns with some of her interpretations, I think her "A Few Days In Athens" was probably one of the greatest contributions to Epicurean literature since the ancient world. To me, that means that she had a very good assessment of the importance of Epicurus, and his general direction at least as to supernatural gods, and issues like virtue (and I think as to life after death too, but as I write this I can't remember that part as clearly). The important thing for this conversation is that despite her great interest and knowledge in Epicurus, she essentially put the philosophy on the shelf and devoted the rest of her life to "politics" in ways that were only so-so successful.

Now I am not questioning her decision to do so if she personally thought at the end of her life that she made the right choice, but when I look back at her writing talent and communication skills I often wonder how much could have been accomplished at a more fundamental level if she had kept her sites trained on religion, and devoted her efforts to restoring an effective Epicurean philosophy school, rather than devote her time to politics.

Like I said everyone has to make these decisions for themselves, but I see the bad results of religion and absolutist philosophy to be so far-reaching that it is worth it to me (again, not saying this about everyone) to put aside at least most of day-to-day politics so as to focus on the "real" enemy that is largely behind most of the day-to-day problems anyway.

So that's part of my answer to your question -- if you REALLY want to crusade for social justice, consider the possibility that the ultimate purveyor of the worst social injustice is supernatural religion and absolutist / idealist philosophy, and that little will ever be accomplished against them unless some segment of people are willing to pick up the foundational philosophical work that Epicurus started.

Quote from Don

The powerful *should* protect the weak." There's no natural source for this. It simply derives from the humanist idealist perspective of the "intrinsic" value of human life.

The "intrinsic value of human life" has a very religious sound to it, doesn't it?

Quote from Don

I'm seeing the answer as "none" with the caveat that he also places great value on the life of the individual since this is the ONLY life you get... And we should strive to make it as pleasurable as possible.

That would be my conclusion too, with the emphasis being on the "intrinsic" part because nothing has "intrinsic" value except in relation to its use by a particular living being. As DeWitt says somewhere, only the living have need of morality or ethics (I need to find the particular quote so I don't mess it up, but it is part of DeWitt's conclusion that Epicurus held one's life to be one's greatest good, rather than pleasure, again with the issue being on the precise definition of the words involved, with pleasure being the goal but one's life being more like one's greatest "asset."

Quote from Don

On the other hand, this idea has been used to rationalize some heinous atrocities throughout history.

I think that this of course is what is said about "hedonism" in general, or the need for some kind of absolute morality in general, that if indeed no supernatural gods exist or no absolute morality exists, civil society is impossible. You recall what Diogenes of Oinoanda had to say about this, right?

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Fr. 20

[So it is obvious that wrong-doers, given that they do not fear the penalties imposed by the laws, are not] afraid of [the gods.] This [has to be] conceded. For if they were [afraid, they] would not [do wrong]. As for [all] the others, [it is my opinion] that the [wise] are not [(reasoning indicates) righteous] on account of the gods, but on account of [thinking] correctly and the [opinions] they hold [regarding] certain things [and especially] pains and death (for indeed invariably and without exception human beings do wrong either on account of fear or on account of pleasures), and that ordinary people on the other hand are righteous, in so far as they are righteous, on account of the laws and the penalties, imposed by the laws, hanging over them. But even if some of their number are conscientious on account of the laws, they are few: only just two or three individuals are to be found among great segments of multitudes, and not even these are steadfast in acting righteously; for they are not soundly persuaded about providence. A clear indication of the complete inability of the gods to prevent wrong-doings is provided by the nations of the Jews and Egyptians, who, as well as being the most superstitious of all peoples, are the vilest of all peoples.

On account of what kind of gods, then, will human beings be righteous? For they are not righteous on account of the real ones or on account of Plato’s and Socrates’ Judges in Hades. We are left with this conclusion; otherwise, why should not those who disregard the laws scorn fables much more?

So, with regard to righteousness, neither does our doctrine do harm [not does] the opposite [doctrine help], while, with regard to the other condition, the opposite doctrine not only does not help, but on the contrary also does harm, whereas our doctrine not only does not harm, but also helps. For the one removes disturbances, while the other adds them, as has already been made clear to you before.

That not only [is our doctrine] helpful, [but also the opposite doctrine harmful, is clearly shown by] the [Stoics as they go astray. For they say in opposition to us] that the god both is maker of [the] world and takes providential care of it, providing for all things, including human beings. Well, in the first place, we come to this question: was it, may I ask, for his own sake that the god created the world [or for the sake of human beings? For it is obvious that it was from a wish to benefit either himself or human beings that he embarked on this] undertaking. For how could it have been otherwise, if nothing is produced without a cause and these things are produced by a god? Let us then examine this view and what Stoics mean. It was, they say, from a wish to have a city and fellow-citizens, just as if [he were an exile from a city, that] the god [created the world and human beings. However, this supposition, a concoction of empty talking, is] self-evidently a fable, composed to gain the attention of an audience, not a natural philosopher’s argument searching for the truth and inferring from probabilities things not palpable to sense. Yet even if, in the belief that he was doing some good [to himself, the god] really [made the world and human beings], .................

Further ---

Quote from Don

What is an Epicurean response to these kinds of events - historically and contemporary?

Although one could easily argue that what Cassius Longinus was reacting to wasn't in the category of your examples, I don't think there is any philosophical difference between them, and we know what Cassius Longinus, Panza, and other Roman Epicureans did when they thought Caesar had stepped over the line. And of course in that context don't forget the very high-ranking-on-the list PD 6. "Whatever you can provide yourself with to secure protection from men is a natural good."

... as well as Torqatus examples of justifying all sorts of fighting in Epicurean terms, plus his: "Yet nevertheless some men indulge without limit their avarice, ambition and love of power, lust, gluttony and those other desires, which ill-gotten gains can never diminish but rather must inflame the more; inasmuch that they appear proper subjects for restraint rather than for reformation." ... in which "restraint" probably has a very extensive application, at least in my view.

So in summary I don't think an Epicurean has to yield to anyone else in terms of the ferocity of their willingness to defend, with force if necessary, their view of what they think is "right" (meaning in terms of pleasure, of course). An Epicurean would just be clear-sighted and not try to justify his or her actions on nonexistent supernatural gods or absolute moralities.

Right I see your last comment as accurate about humanism, and I think you are correct it conflicts with Epicurus.

Now as to "don't worry...." I don't think he would go that far. Epicurus would have been very familiar with Persians and other enemies of Greece with whom no treaties had been possible (arguably) so yes I think that he is saying that with enemies with whom war is possible, "justice" is not going to be a relevant concept. On the other hand of course you would have to "worry" about them because the Persians were very capable of doing great harm to the Greeks, so it was necessary to deal with them with knowledge of that fact.

I think you're on the right track that he is separating (1) the practical (yes you do have to worry about your enemies lest they kill or harm you, so you better be prepared to respond and/or protect yourself), from (2) the philosophical (in such a relationship where no agreements have been deemed possible, "justice" is not a relevant concept, any more than it is a relevant concept in how you treat the hungry cobra or the lion or the bear. Certainly they deserve lots of respect, and we even get pleasure from seeing them in the wild, but we don't analyze our relationship to them in terms of "justice."

Quote from Don

I can't shake the idea that it has to be possible to determine if an action or law is just or not. Why else would Epicurus devote so many of the Principal Doctrines to justice?

Maybe we need to be very precise as to what it is that justice relates to. For example what does "courage" relate to? Will power? What does "temperance" relate to? Self-control? What does "wisdom" relate to? Practical application of knowledge?

In all of those areas, I think Epicurus is saying that the only test in that area of human life is whether it is the positive virtue, or the "un-" reverse of that virtue, is whether the particular display of that virtue in fact leads to pleasure, or in fact leads to something else, under the cirumstances then and there existing. As a result it would never be possible to judge beforehand whether the action is wise, or just, or prudent, or whatever, until we know the result.

Perhaps the area of human life that "justice" relates to is simply "our relationship with other people" and the question involved is "does this or that relationship in fact lead to pleasure for each person concerned, or does it lead to pain for one of more of the people concerned?

Is it possible that the question of just or unjust is as simple as that?

I don't think the question of whether a thing is wise, or courageous, or prudent/temperate has any other meaning --- citing Torquatus:

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XVI. It remains to speak of Justice, to complete the list of the virtues; but this admits of practically the same treatment as the others. Wisdom, Temperance, and Courage I have shown to be so closely linked with Pleasure that they cannot possibly be severed or sundered from it. The same must be deemed to be the case with Justice. Not only does Justice never cause anyone harm, but on the contrary it always adds some benefit, partly owing to its essentially tranquilizing influence upon the mind, partly because of the hope that it warrants of a never-failing supply of the things that uncorrupted nature really needs. And just as Rashness, License, and Cowardice ever torment the mind, ever awakening trouble and discord, so Unrighteousness, when firmly rooted in the heart, causes restlessness by the mere fact of its presence; and if once it has found expression in some deed of wickedness, however secret the act, yet it can never feel assured that it will always remain undetected.

The usual consequences of crime are, first suspicion, next gossip and rumor, then comes the accuser, then the judge; many wrongdoers have even turned evidence against themselves, as happened in your consulship. And even if any think themselves well fenced and fortified against detection by their fellow men, they still dread the eye of heaven, and fancy that the pangs of anxiety night and day gnawing at their hearts are sent by Providence to punish them. But what can wickedness contribute towards lessening the annoyances of life, commensurate with its effect in increasing them, owing to the burden of a guilty conscience, the penalties of the law and the hatred of one's fellows?

Yet nevertheless some men indulge without limit their avarice, ambition and love of power, lust, gluttony and those other desires, which ill-gotten gains can never diminish but rather must inflame the more; inasmuch that they appear proper subjects for restraint rather than for reformation. Men of sound natures, therefore, are summoned by the voice of true reason to justice, equity, and honesty. For one without eloquence or resources dishonesty is not good policy, since it is difficult for such a man to succeed in his designs, or to make good his success when once achieved.

On the other hand, for the rich and clever generous conduct seems more in keeping, and liberality wins them affection and good will, the surest means to a life of peace; especially as there really is no motive for transgressing since the desires that spring from nature are easily gratified without doing any man wrong, while those that are imaginary ought to be resisted, for they set their affections upon nothing that is really wanted; while there is more loss inherent in Injustice itself than there is profit in the gains it brings.

Hence Justice also cannot correctly be said to be desirable in and for itself; it is so because it is so highly productive of gratification. For esteem and affection are gratifying, because they render life safer and fuller of pleasure. Hence we hold that Unrighteousness is to be avoided not simply on account of the disadvantages that result from being unrighteous, but even far more because when it dwells in a man's heart it never suffers him to breathe freely or know a moment's rest.

If then even the glory of the Virtues, on which all the other philosophers love to expatiate so eloquently, has in the last resort no meaning unless it be based on pleasure, whereas pleasure is the only thing that is intrinsically attractive and alluring, it cannot be doubted that pleasure is the one supreme and final Good and that a life of happiness is nothing else than a life of pleasure.

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And of course all that is in context of how the subject was introduced:

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Those who place the Chief Good in virtue alone are beguiled by the glamour of a name, and do not understand the true demands of nature. If they will consent to listen to Epicurus, they will be delivered from the grossest error. Your school dilates on the transcendent beauty of the virtues; but were they not productive of pleasure, who would deem them either praiseworthy or desirable? We esteem the art of medicine not for its interest as a science, but for its conduciveness to health; the art of navigation is commended for its practical and not its scientific value, because it conveys the rules for sailing a ship with success. So also Wisdom, which must be considered as the art of living, if it effected no result would not be desired; but as it is, it is desired, because it is the artificer that procures and produces pleasure.

Now maybe there is a limit to the point that the action can only be judged in retrospect, in that given our experience in human nature, we can guesstimate based on past percentages that certain courses of action are more likely to lead to pleasure than others. But the point which proves the rule is still that the only reason we desire the quality is that it brings pleasure. We may not be able to apply the talent or quality perfectly, because we cannot predict the future and we cannot take all circumstances into account. But in fact in order to even come close to applying these qualities as one would want to apply them, one needs to take into account as much experience and as much information as one can possibly apply toward the subject. And all of those experiences and pieces of information were the result of their prior contexts and circumstances, so there was never any art of seeing through to the will or god or to anything absolute, but simply doing the best job we can possibly do to evaluate all the circumstances and calculate our actions based on them to lead to pleasure. And surely if we thought that there was any other goal (such as pursuing the virtue in and for itself) we would miss our ultimate goal because we took our eyes off of pleasure as the final goal.

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22. We must consider both the real purpose, and all the evidence of direct perception, to which we always refer the conclusions of opinion; otherwise, all will be full of doubt and confusion.

The apparent point of 22 being that we are considering the real purpose (pleasure) and all the evidence available to us (which does NOT include any objective definition of the virtues) if we are to avoid doubt and confusion and do our best under the circumstances with which we are faced.

Quote from Don

Is it that obvious? Frankly, that's one thing that bothers me. Maybe I'm not cut out for Epicureanism after all. Maybe I am a Stoic or a Buddhist after all. This discussion is very interesting from that perspective too in making me confront prejudices and proclivities of my own.

Yes it's THAT obvious ;'-)

But that just makes you in the camp of about 99% of the world that hasn't been exposed, or hasn't confronted and come to terms with, the logical conclusions of Epicurean philosophy.

And that's why it is so helpful to talk to you about this.

If you, who are so well disposed to Epicurus otherwise, are not willing to cross what is probably the ultimate threshold, then we certainly can't have much expectation of being successful with people who haven't even been exposed to Epicurus.

Talking it over in this context helps a lot to move forward in articulating the argument in the strongest way possible.

It may in fact be that Epicurean philosophy will always be a small minority of people, but I am convinced it could be a LOT more than currently exists. Cicero complained that it was "taking Italy by storm" - but maybe the Romans were much more practical-minded than we are, and of course they were not infected with Judeo-Christian "poison" that Nietzsche denounced so strongly. Today's mixture of Judeo-Christian monotheism and humanism (monotheist religion without the god) is apparently much stronger than the old Greco-Roman religion, but I am convinced that we can hope to make strong inroads into it.

Thanks for the comments Matthaios - I particularly agree with this:

Quote from Matthaios

I could imagine a Lucretius making the point that one shouldn't focus on "romance/lust" as the primary component to a relationship, though important, it is fleeting, therefore better to look at what a contract would provide, ie offspring, wealth, safety, history, familiarity, etc.. Where once relationships were treated as more of a business transaction to offer improved outcomes for future generations and a securing of generational wealth, modern day relationships have run wild with temporary lust and desires, of which when the flame dims out, have often left behind divorced marriages and broken families.

Your list of considerations is a good one, since once conclusion I am coming to is that "time" or "duration" of the pleasure is what most people think about first, but that's not really the consideration (or at least, it's only one) according to Epicurus.

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And just as with food he does not seek simply the larger share and nothing else, but rather the most pleasant, so he seeks to enjoy not the longest period of time, but the most pleasant. (Letter to Menoceus)

ADMIN NOTE: At this point in the conversation, Don wrote a post which launches a discussion more oriented toward "justice" than the original point of this thread. Here is a screen-clip of the post and you can find it and the ensuing discussion here. Please pursue the "justice" discussion there, and pursue the main point of this thread continue here.

i will set something up and move some of the recent posts to the new location

Due to the intricate nature of our forum discussions, regular users probably will find themselves wanting to "bookmark" particular items to come back to them later. The forum has long had such a function, but it was likely underused (I know I rarely used it myself) because it was the last item on the menu.

I think I have also been confused because there is a bookmark item in the "notification" bar at the very top of most styles, but when you click that you only get a list of "shared" bookmarks, not your own. Your own bookmarks have a page to themselves, which is found by clicking on the "Bookmarks" menu, or they can also be accessed by clicking the "Display All" at the bottom of the dropdown after clicking the Icon.

It finally occurs to me that the reason that the bookmark notification only highlights "shared" bookmarks is that it's a "notification" icon, and you don't need notification when you add your own bookmark - only when someone else "shares" a bookmark to the group or to you personally. I bet that was blindingly obvious to Martin H. - the forum software is from Germany and now that I think about it this operation is very logical, but it wasn't what I expected at first!

Therefore in order to make the bookmarking feature more user-friendly, I have moved it to a more prominent position on the main/top menu where you can find it more easily.

If anyone has any questions or suggestions about that let me know!

Quote from Don

..... law/custom/contract to execute homosexuals is not just because it certainly doesn't benefit both parties.

You may be right to disagree with my first suggestion. Maybe the issue is that to be unjust, the agreement has to start out beneficial and satisfactory to both, but then circumstances changed, and it is the attempt to enforce the old arrangement is injustice. But then it seems to me that it is hard to distinguish that situation from "unwilling to agree" which is a situation of "neither just nor unjust."

It is possible that it would be a good idea to start a new discussion under one of the "justice" subforums. As I recall over the years very infrequently have any of us engaged in long discussions over the last ten PDs, but it would be HIGHLY beneficial to do so.

Regardless, it seems to me that we have to compare 32 to 37 and 38 to triangulate on this issue:

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32. For all living things which have not been able to make compacts not to harm one another, or be harmed, nothing ever is either just or unjust; and likewise, too, for all tribes of men which have been unable, or unwilling, to make compacts not to harm or be harmed.

37. Among actions which are sanctioned as just by law, that which is proved, on examination, to be of advantage, in the requirements of men's dealings with one another, has the guarantee of justice, whether it is the same for all or not. But if a man makes a law, and it does not turn out to lead to advantage in men's dealings with each other, then it no longer has the essential nature of justice. And even if the advantage in the matter of justice shifts from one side to the other, but for a while accords with the general concept, it is nonetheless just for that period, in the eyes of those who do not confound themselves with empty sounds, but look to the actual facts.

38. Where, provided the circumstances have not been altered, actions which were considered just have been shown not to accord with the general concept, in actual practice, then they are not just. But where, when circumstances have changed, the same actions which were sanctioned as just no longer lead to advantage, they were just at the time, when they were of advantage for the dealings of fellow-citizens with one another, but subsequently they are no longer just, when no longer of advantage.

PERHAPS my suggestion should be reworded as:

Epicurus might say that "justice" means "an agreement (contract?) that brings pleasure to all parties to the contract." If so, then injustice might refer to the attempt to enforce an old "agreement (contract? social relationship?) that does NOT bring pleasure to all parties in that relationship.

But that is only an interim thought - we need to continue to discuss.

I'm thinking also about what other general comments need to be said about the overall context of these observations.

One generality that comes to mind is this: That although Epicurean philosophy causes us to lose our illusions about the universe having a grand scheme of justice that makes everything come out in the end "fairly" for everyone involved, maybe at least we have in compensation that we have a clear view of the "truth."

We aren't able anymore to live under the false illusions (primarily of religion, but also of general "humanism") that we used to find so comforting, but in exchange there's something comforting about reconciling oneself to "the way things are," and knowing that whatever time we have had, we have lived it in touch with reality and did the best we could with it.

I know in my own case that I think all my live I've been prepared to accept "truth" that I didn't like, if need be. But most of all I didn't want to waste my entire life being manipulated and living under some "noble lie" as a pawn of false forces that sounded good but were - in fact - a lie! To me there is some pleasure in thinking that I did what I could even if circumstances were adverse. But to wind up at the end of life thinking that I had spent my time being a helpless pawn at the whim of liars whom I should have seen through? That would be the worst possible result.

Now I know this viewpoint has to be tempered by the "But was it in fact a pleasurable life?" analysis, referencing how Epicurus said that it is better to live under a false religion that to accept hard determinism that it is not within your power to be happy. I suppose I can imagine a scenario in which there are some truly benevolent people who do in fact keep some hypothetical other person "in the dark" throughout their lives for the sake of that other person living pleasurably.

But while I can imagine such a scenario being possible, I see no evidence that any existing human system has such a result as its goal or as its practical result. Therefore my acknowledgement of the hypothetical has not given me any reason be worried that I was in such a situation myself or unfairly rejecting such a system anywhere else. And for the same reason I don't expect that Epicurus himself found that he had to worry about adopting a religion so as to avoid the clutches of the hard determinists.

There's a pleasure in using one's mind and doing what one can to find out the truth and then apply the lessons learned, and at least from my point of view that pleasure is worth an awful lot.

(Ha -- and of all the ways I could describe it, would I ever think of referring to that pleasure primarily as "absence of pain" or "katastematic"? Not in a million years.)

Quote from Don

In light of there being no absolute justice (or ideal virtue of justice), how do we determine if an act (or law) is just? How do we act justly?

Can you provide a specific scenario that would illustrate someone acting justly? Or the opposite?

That's not a challenge btw 😉 just a clarifying question.

You're wrestling on but you almost have the opposition pinned, and the referee is counting down to the end of the match!

I think the obvious answer to your question and the obvious implications of the final ten PD10's all point back in the same direction as saying "the goal is pleasure" or "pleasure is the alpha and omega of the blessed life."

Just like you can't truly know the difference between courage and foolhardiness, or wisdom vs stupidity, or any other virtue vs its opposite, you can't judge "justice" or "injustice" without looking to the results of the particular set of facts.

And worse than that from an absolutists' point of view, when you do look at it from that relativistic point of view, you're drawn to the conclusion that these words like "justice" and 'virtue" were nothing more than "words" from the very beginning -- which recalls the"last words of Brutus" supposedly recorded after the battle of Philippi (see my note):

The Wikipedia entry for the Battle of Philippi includes this (as of 09/01/17):

Plutarch also reports the last words of Brutus, quoted by a Greek tragedy “O wretched Virtue, thou wert but a name, and yet I worshipped thee as real indeed; but now, it seems, thou were but fortune’s slave.”

https://newepicurean.com/note-on-the-la…o-not-plutarch/

But to answer your question more directly, it sounds to me like Epicurus is allowing for a proper use of the word justice to refer to an agreement between consenting people for something that is in their mutual benefit - which means it brings them both pleasure. So it sounds like he thinks that in such a relationship it is proper to call that "justice." But he is also saying that as soon as it ceases to be for the benefit of both it at that moment ceases to be "just." So in the end does the word "justice" really have any beneficial use other than in describing an agreement which is mutually beneficial to the people involved? I can't really see that it does, but then that's pretty much the same status as the other "virtues." I suppose that just like "wisdom" means "smart analysis that brings pleasure," Epicurus might say that "justice" means "an agreement (contract?) that brings pleasure to all parties to the contract." If so, then injustice might refer to "an agreement (contract? social relationship?) that does NOT bring pleasure to all parties in that relationship.

Maybe "justice" is a good general term for a specific type of "social relationship," or "agreement," but the terms "just" and "unjust" are going to be rigorously contextual.

I will be curious what Elayne has to say on this.

Quote from Don

I also would say that the pleasure of the homophobe is no more choice-worthy than the pleasure of the profligate from our old friend PD 10.

Yes absolutely, that is the point. Simply feeling a pleasure does not tell us it is choiceworthy under our personal circumstances. The larger point, however, is that philosophically if we are looking to nature or something outside ourselves for justification for that choice, we aren't going to find it. All we can note is that our feeling of pleasure is our natural canonical experience -- just like seeing a tree or bird. What we do about what we see or hear is no different than when we do about something we feel. All our actions in life have consequences, but not consequences resulting from the gods, or from idealistic visions of absolute truth.

In many ways i think discussions like this remind us what a "high-level" we are dealing with here. Like Cicero said somewhere, Epicurean philosophy is not really very difficult to understand. The big picture comes down to denial of the allegations of the major competitors - There IS no god, there IS no life after death, there IS no otherworldly realm of absolute truth. There is for us only our natural world, during our lifetimes, and nothing from nature giving us any "stop" or "go" feedback other than pain and pleasure.

Much of what Epicurus is doing is simply exploding the opposition, and then pointing to the basic aspects of nature and saying: "This is what you have to work with - go to it with these basics as best you can."

Quote from Don

So I found the turned-tables an interesting but unexpected opportunity to explore this topic.

Probably as we develop improved techniques for explaining Epicurean philosophy quickly and clearly, we ought to look for examples that do exactly that.

Today when we did the last podcast for book 4, I made a similar observation, that romantic love probably provides a particularly good example for us to talk about precisely because it evokes such strong emotions and positions.

33. Justice never is anything in itself, but in the dealings of men with one another, in any place whatever, and at any time, it is a kind of compact not to harm or be harmed.

I think I see this translated at times as "there is no such thing as absolute justice" and that might be preferable to drill home the point.

Perhaps one lesson we might end up drawing from this discussion when it is over is that we need to spend more time sooner discussing the PDs on justice -- which people tend to avoid, probably for EXACTLY the reason that we are now discussing them! (and that reason is that the PDs on justice are a stark reminder that virtue is contextual and has no absolute basis.)

No problem at all because this helps us all to articulate better.

As to PD 31, that consideration is certainly true, but it is immediately modified and controlled by

32. For all living things which have not been able to make compacts not to harm one another, or be harmed, nothing ever is either just or unjust; and likewise, too, for all tribes of men which have been unable, OR UNWILLING, to make compacts not to harm or be harmed.

We might be experiencing here the harm that comes from segmenting the PDs into numbered separations, which to my understanding were not present in the original. I think it is important to read the entire section on justice altogether, and when one does one sees that justice is entirely contextual and really means nothing at all UNLESS there is a positive agreement. Absent an agreement (which even then can be broken when circumstances change) there is really no such thing as "justice" at all. This is a great illustration of how virtue has no meaning unless it bring pleasure.

i would like to comment on this:

Quote from Elayne

Would you say that a consenting adult same-sex couple in such a culture was not Epicurean to have a relationship even at risk of death? I certainly would not.

Quote from Don

I would say this specific scenario is the exact opposite of what I had in mind when I wrote my post,

Just so someone can correct me if I read this wrong, Elayne is asking about a society which condemns homosexuality, in which a couple chooses to pursue the relationship at risk of death. Elayne is pointing out that even though the couple may risk death, it might well be Epicurean of them to pursue their own pleasure, even though society disapproves and might put them to death. I say "might well be Epicurean" because it would be up to them to weigh the pluses and minuses and make their own decision -- there is no way for anyone else - Epicurean or not - to decide for them whether to pursue their relationship or not, because the ramifications are unpredictable and no one can decide for them how to navigate those choices. (I see that Elayne says that "I certainly would not" but I think she implicitly is saying that the choice could be analyzed in Epicurean terms either way, due to the contextual uncertainties involved in putting yourself in the position of any other particular person.)

I think this is a very good scenario to illustrate the issue, so I am not sure Don why you see this as "the exact opposite of what you had in mind"(?) Maybe there is something in your comment there, as to why you find the scenario the opposite of what you were thinking, that would help if you explained(?)

Quote from Don

First, I believe your scenario can be analysed to spring from an "empty" opinion or belief on the part of the one feeling "disgust" and, as such, they are not acting morally, justly, or prudently, and so their action can be said to be not choice-worthy.

oh no - no - no --- I would not take that route at all! (this is why i SO dislike the "empty" word). Let me read the rest.....

But this is VERY good to explore.....

Here are my first thoughts:

Quote from Don

6. Therefore, I would say the person holding this opinion and getting pleasure from it is not acting justly, wisely, or morally. If they experience momentary pleasure from holding this belief, it is not choice-worthy for the reasons outlined here. The opinion will not lead to a maximally pleasurable life. A person holding that belief cannot consider themselves as following an Epicurean path.

Yes that is "your" view of the situation, but the person holding the other viewpoint is in fact getting pleasure from it (under your scenario) so their pleasure is a canonical "fact" for them which they must analyze along with the fact that you disapprove of their viewpoint and may come down on them with disapproval of all kinds, including force. You may in fact choose to do that, and to force them to back off from their pleasure at pain of punishment, and that would be an example of "how the world works" which Epicurus tells us to take into account. But you would need to realize that it is only your ability to use force to enforce your opinion that "justifies" your substituting your view for theirs. From that point of view you are pursuing your own pleasure, and as Epicurus says that is the way the world works, but I don't think Epicurus would tell you that your particular position takes philosophical precedence over theirs -- it is just a matter that your view of pleasure is in conflict with theirs, and that is where in the PDs as to justice Epicurus points out that there is no natural "justice" -- if you don't agree, then you don't agree, and you can resort to force or persuasion or whatever, but if there is no agreement, then there is no "justice" to appeal to, and in the end the appeal ends up being to "might makes right."

With perhaps the major point being here that this is what makes "feeling" a part of the canon of truth.... that our FEELINGS of pain and pleasure are true to us, regardless of where they come from. We can choose to follow them or not .. and suffer the good or bad results of so doing ... but they are in fact the guide that nature gave to us, so in terms of "justification" our feelings need no justification from gods or from ideal forms -- or from majority or minority or even "Epicurean" viewpoints.

OK I am going to stop editing this post, wait for others to post, and then reply as needed below.