Posts by Cassius

And from there, he returned again to us - a conqueror - to relate those things that can be, and those that can not, and to tell us on what principle each thing has its powers defined, its boundary-mark set deep. (Lucretius Book 1, Line 62)

Here are several significant observations from this passage:

1. Lucretius is observing that Epicurus figuratively traveled across space with his mind and then returned to us. Maybe this is entirely poetic fancy, and certainly it isn't meant to be taken literally, but the allusion to traveling to observe something up close may be more than just a poetic device. Diogenes Laertius, for example, explained Epicurus' concept of "Waiting" to get evidence sufficient to make a decision by analogizing the process to walking toward a tower to see it if indeed is still as round up close as it appears to be from a distance.
2. Lucretius calls Epicurus a "conqueror" or describes him as returning "in victory" or "triumphant." That sounds like a description of an active process of grasping hold of something that was not formerly within one's grasp - which sounds to me like something Lucretius wanted to describe as a process of action, rather than pure contemplation for the sake of contemplation.
3. "Those things that can be and what cannot" - That sounds like it is at least a reference to Epicurus' views of free will, in which some things are possible to us and others are not, and it's probably also a reference to the physical universe in which in Epicurus' view it is not possible that the universe as a whole had a beginning, or had an end, or that the universe could be reigned over by supernatural forces.
4. "On what principle each thing has its powers defined." - Would this not likely at least in part be a reference to how the elementary particles are what give rise to the qualities of the bodies that we see in our level of experience, and how the qualities of those bodes are defined and limited in what they can and cannot do by the way their elemental particles are combined?
5. "It's boundary-mark set deep." One concept that comes to mind here would probably be "finis / end / limit" and its probably very significant that of all the things that Lucretius chose to praise about Epicurus' accomplishments, it was his work on the elemental particles and how they provide the limits and boundaries of human life that he focused on the most.

Alternate translations;

Bailey: "whence in victory he brings us tidings what can come to be and what cannot, yea and in what way each thing has its power limited, and its deepset boundary-stone.

Munro: "whence he returns a conqueror to tell us what can, what cannot come into being; in short on what principle each thing has its powers defined, its deep-set boundary mark".

Brown: "from thence returned, triumphant; told us what things may have a being, and what cannot; and how a finite power is fixed to each; a bound it cannot break."

Thank you!

Alex I just want to be sure to let you know how much I (and I am sure the others as well) appreciate your taking the time to make those kind comments. For long stretches I wasn't sure if we had any listeners at all, so to see you and several others post positive comments lately has been most gratifying.

The podcast started out almost as an experiment as much as anything else, because I knew we needed to gain some expertise in formatting and technology to produce a decent podcast.

Over the next couple of months we're closing in on the end of Lucretius, but as far as I am concerned this is just the start of our podcasting efforts. We'll get the existing series transferred over to youtube to expand the audience, and one day we'll move into something by video as well.

Comments like yours certainly help keep us motivated.

Thank you Martin! Unless that last name is extremely common, the parallel would seem unlikely to be total coincidence - maybe he was an uncle or something.

If he identified "imperturbability" as the "common goal" then that might explain why Sabina might not have taken much interest in the details of Epicurus (of course that comment is pure speculation).

For many years I hopped back and forth between many podcatchers, but in the last couple of years I've finally seen the telephone more as a tool than a toy, and I've settled down. Antennapod seems to do everything I need just fine.

Quote from JJElbert

So it works just fine, but possibly there are better options?

Is that apple or Android.

On Android I have gone to the open source and free AntennaPod - which works fine

Joshua thanks for the comments - So you have been able to search for and find the Lucretius Today podcast at Castbox without any issues?

I spent some time today looking at our entries in the google podcast and (after I finally found it (the apple directory) and the entries look decent but could definitely be improved.

One thing I see is that the Episode listings should not start with my personal intro or the podcast - it is sufficient for them to start with what the episode is about. I will have to go back and correct that at the Spreaker.com home base, and hope that flows back into the Apple and Google listings eventually.

I also would prefer - if possible - to add in the line numbers as we have been doing in the last several episodes recently

We certainly want to do that, at the very least, before trying to move them over into Youtube.

Let's use this thread to discuss any suggestions anyone has about how to improve the listings on the various locations where the podcast appears.

This is a thread to use as a pointer for updates on Michele Pinto's convention activities.

This is a thread for links to the annual Athens Seminar. I need to add here the upcoming dates as they occur. If I remember correctly this usually occurs around February of each year, in proximity to Epicurus' birthday.

Oh I like the word "finitors" - I'd like to see some ancient usage of that one!

Quote from Don

I just get antsy seeing the word "soul" bandied about.

You materialists have such low tolerance for poetry!

Yep I agree - "soul" just automatically conveys "immortal soul" to us today, so that's another chain of thought that has to get rewired.

Thus the living force of his soul won the day. On he passed, far beyond the flaming walls of the world, traversing the immeasurable universe through mind and spirit. (Lucretius Book 1, Line 62)

This passage makes a couple of points worth considering, starting with these:

1. "The living force of his soul" - Not his "reason" or his "logic," though those were no doubt part of the picture.
2. "Won the day" - Can be considered as a conqueror; definitely not a waste of time or ultimately futile.
3. "Far beyond the flaming walls of the world" - Presumably means his survey reached beyond "our world" (which the Epicureans considered to be our system of earth and visible stars, while thinking that that there are innumerable other similar systems beyond ours). The "flaming walls" is an interesting reference too.
4. "The immeasurable universe" - Regardless of what modern physics may or may not say about that, concluding that the universe as a whole is without end played an important role in Epicurus' thinking -- thus there are no supernatural gods "outside" or "beyond" it, because there can be no "outside" or "beyond" due to the conclusion that the universe is without end.
5. "Through mind and spirit" - Anyone who thinks that Epicureans were only concerned with filling their "bellies" ought to take stock of this comment.

OMG that would be VERY interesting. We'll have to see if we can track that down as I would be interested to know his perspective on Epicurus too ( tagging Martin to be sure he sees this)

Great link!

Well whenever I think about "evicting" someone I think about the Biblicists I'd like to evict from "our" homeland of Italy and Greece, so I guess that's why I associate the terms together

Well I think there are probably multiple things going on and they don't all resolve to the same point. I would say that clearly there are times when the End as a "boundary-mark" is definitely what is meant, especially in terms of things that can be, and things that can't be.

At other times the End as a "goal" is definitely what is meant, in the same sense as Cicero's "on the ends of good and evil."

We just have to be nimble-footed enough to go with the flow and see when one meaning is meant versus another, because both are important depending on the subject and perspective.

If we can keep our understanding clear that we are all made of atoms and void while at the same time seeing that that's no reason to fall into the despair of nihilism (quite the contrary, in fact) then we can help people see the multiple meanings of words like "end."

For some reason that calls to mind one of the areas I think DeWitt was strongest in, such as his article where he attacked and the confusion about "all sensations are true" and points to the multiple meanings of the word "true."

I suspect that this is a similar issue, and that there are other similar situations as well.

The prodigal surveyor has returned just as we were talking a lot about boundary-stones. We will halt the eviction proceedings!

Maybe that's why we also see the full title as "De Finibus Bonorum et Malorum" because too many people were getting confused and thinking that the book was about map-making

Ya think? I'm thinking that probably wasn't a big problem.

And of course you might even think of integrating this "purpose rather than limit" analogy with the opening of the letter to Menoeceus, when Epicurus talks about happiness (one of the appearances of eudaemonia?) rather than using the word pleasure again.

If so, the implication might be taken that even though "pleasure" is all that is desirable in itself, it is helpful for us humans to realize that the purpose of pursuing any individual particular pleasure is the attainment of happy living / happiness. Happy living / happiness is itself a direct function of the experience of individual pleasures, but needs a conceptual name of its own so that we can indicate it in our minds as the ultimate purpose, especially considering that we sometimes choose a temporary pain or temporarily avoid a pleasure in order to gain "the net final result" of the happiest (most pleasant) life possible.

As we analyze this it seems to me the key is to be sure that we avoid falling prey to the pitfall of articulating something that can be misrepresented as nihilism, which is what the "absence of pain" analysis falls prey to unless articulated properly.