Posts by Cassius

Quote from Don

Approaching it as "Epicurean fan fiction" written by a teenage fan of Epicurus might allow for some leniency with her writing. With that it mind, too, it's more sophisticated than what I would initially expect from a teenager.

I suspect that you are going to have many of the same questions I did. The book is VERY maturely written, and it indicates a knowledge of details from the other ten books of Diogenes Laertius that one would expect would take years of study.

I haven't focused recently on her age when she wrote it, so I need to verify that aspect of it. Certainly at some point she was capable of writing every bit of it herself, because her later work is written in much the same style and from the same viewpoint.

But the maturity shown in AFDIA is very deep, and the younger it is postulated that she was when she wrote it, the more in my own mind its almost certain that she had at very least "good coaching." I am not trying to take anything away from FW in these comments because she was clearly a remarkable person, but I don't want you beating yourself up Don that you're a couple of years older now than she was when this was published and you still haven't written anything comparable. For sure, neither have I!

One last note is that I think it's probably an indication of something going on that she wrote such a lengthy and detailed introduction about the "anonymous" background of the manuscript.

Quote from Don

now that I know she wrote it when she was a teenager.

For sure, this is not a work by an average teenager!

Don I am thinking that you have not read this one yet? I think Godfrey has and I am not sure about Joshua and Martin and others. This would be a good thread in which we can update our comments on Wright, and we can move it to the Wright section as well.

Quote from Paquin

Happy birthday! I'm looking forward to reading A Few Days in Athens after finishing the Lucretius podcast.

In many ways it is excellent; in some ways it is disappointing. We have some good commentary in it in our section on Frances Wright, including some pretty blunt (but I think accurate) criticism of it by Elayne. Problems in Frances Wright's "A Few Days in Athens"

There is much additional good material in that subforum as well.

First, to repeat, there's a lot of good material in it and it is well worth reading, which is why it's on our reading list. However:

In general, the issue is that some people are turned off by the "flowery" writing style of the early chapters. That doesn't strike me as too serious a flaw (I ignore it as an aspect of the style of that time) but there are more serious issues too. Frances Wright doesn't seem to follow Epicurus on "agency," nor does she go by the book on the existence of the "gods." Most interestingly, she hints at (and carries further in some later writing) her view that we need to be so careful of "theories" that we essentially reject all of them. If carried to an extreme (as perhaps she did in her later writing) this can itself turn into a form of skepticism that I think went well beyond what Epicurus taught.

Quote from Don

She wrote A Few Days in Athens while she was still a teenager? Did not know that!

That relates to our brief recent podcast discussion that we should learn Epicurean philosophy when we were children.

I've never been able to find any further leads, but apparently several members of her family were philosophically and/or politically active and presumably led her in the right direction from an early age. We can't wait til we're in advanced age (where's my walking stick?) before we start studying Epicurus!

"A Few Days In Athens" shows not only a deep understanding (though not always agreement) with Book Ten

looks very nice!

Copenhagen Amber Museum - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org

Great catch Joshua!

Yep. Definite reasons to be cautious there.

In this episode I was trying to remember a Bible verse to the effect that the world was unchanged since the beginning of time. I think I was referring to 2 Peter 3-4

New International Version

They will say, “Where is this ‘coming’ he promised? Ever since our ancestors died, everything goes on as it has since the beginning of creation.”

New Living Translation

They will say, “What happened to the promise that Jesus is coming again? From before the times of our ancestors, everything has remained the same since the world was first created.”

English Standard Version

They will say, “Where is the promise of his coming? For ever since the fathers fell asleep, all things are continuing as they were from the beginning of creation.”

Berean Study Bible

“Where is the promise of His coming?” they will ask. “Ever since our fathers fell asleep, everything continues as it has from the beginning of creation.”

2 Peter 3:4 "Where is the promise of His coming?" they will ask. "Ever since our fathers fell asleep, everything continues as it has from the beginning of creation."

Actually I do have something else to add here -- although I never got finished, I made a list of a number of significant translations that DeWit made which I found in a number of sources. I will add them here if I can format it correctly. I was going to set this up as a table and then sort it by the reference, which would have given a set of his translations not only of the PD's but also of the Vatican Sayings, but as usual I lost steam before the project was complete!

1. "Therefore the vital vigor of his mind pressed victoriously through and far he fared beyond the flaming ramparts of the world and all infinity explored in mind and thought."" " EAP, page 109
2. """One point will become clear from understanding another; nor will blind night ever rob you of the path and prevent you from peering into the ultimate realities of nature; so surely will understanding of one thing kindle a gleam to illuminate the next.""" EAHP, page 4-5
3. """The terrors of the mind are scattering in flight; the ramparts of the universe are parting asunder; lo, I behold the operations of nature going on throughout the whole void; in plain view is the divinity of the gods and the realms of perfect quiet."" " EAP, page 109
4. "But on the contrary the regions of Acheron are nowhere to be seen.""" EAP, page 109
5. "You will be able by your own unaided efforts to discern one truth after another."" " EAP, page 112
6. """Besides, if other men too had not employed spoken words in their intercourse one with another, from what quarter was this notion of utility implanted in this man's mind and from what source was this capacity in the first instance bestowed upon him, so that he knew and envisaged in his mind what he wished to do?" EAP, page 130
7. """Death is nothing to us, because when we are, death is not present, and when death is present, then we are not.""" EAHP, page 46 Letter to Menoeceus
8. "The wise man will establish a school but not in such a manner as to become the leader of a rabble. He will give readings in public but only by request.""" EAHP, page 50 DL Life of Epicurus
9. "Dialectic they reject as superfluous. for it should suffice physicists to get along with the names of things as they find them."" " EAP, page 131 DL Life of Epicurus
10. """Empty is the word of that philosopher by which no malady of man is healed; for just as there is no benefit in the art of medicine unless it expels our diseases from our bodies, so there is no benefit in philosophy either unless it expels the sickness of the soul.""" Nwd - Epicurus and Leucippus DL Life of Epicurus
11. """That which causes the unsurpassable joy is the bare escape from some awful calamity, and this is the nature of 'good,' if one apprehends it rightly and then stands by his finding, instead of walking around uselessly and harping on the meaning of 'good.""'" NWD - The Summum Bonum Fallacy DL Life of Epicurus
12. """The injuries men inflict arise from hatred, envy, and contempt, over all of which the wise man is able to prevail by calculation," NWD - The Summum Bonum Fallacy DL Life of Epicurus
13. """Think of us, Mother, as living among such blessings as these and rejoicing always and let yourself feel uplifted at what we are doing. Be sparing, however, of the parcels, I implore you, which you persist in sending us, for it is not my wish that you should lack anything in order that I may have an abundance, but rather that I may lack to the end that you may not. As a matter of fact, I am even faring bountifully in all things because of the money being sent regularly by my father and by friends and especially because of the nine minas which Cleon has lately sent. There is consequently no sense in each of you worrying yourself separately on my account but you should rather be sharing one with the other (your common grounds for contentment)."" " EAHP, page 59 Diogenes of Oenander
14. """And I am minded the more to make another visit, having been introduced by you to her, because of your own friendly attitude toward us, dearest Meneas, and the assiduity of the wonderful Cams and our dear Dionysius throughout the whole time that we were sojourning in Rhodes at her house. Again, farewell.""" EAHP, page 59 Diogenes of Oenander
15. "As for the assurance of safety from the attacks of men, by virtue of the nature of political dominion and kingly power this is a good thing, no matter by whose aid one is able to procure it."" " EAP, page 79 Auth Doct 6
16. "The blessed and incorruptible being neither knows trouble itself nor occasions it to another,""" EAP, page 84 Auth Doct 1
17. """The man at peace with himself is inoffensive to his neighbor also,"" Check source." EAP, page 85 Vatican Saying 79
18. ".....the security that arises from the retired life and withdrawal from the multitude is the most unalloyed." EAP, page 86 Auth Doct 14
19. "Human nature is not to be coerced but persuaded." EAHP, page 53 Vatican Saying 21
20. "As a class those who have found it possible to assure themselves of complete safety from the dangers of their surroundings have also lived most happily (fullness of pleasure) and. having reaped the utmost fullness of fellowship, do not mourn the untimely decease of the departed as something calling for pity.""" EAP, page 103 Auth Doct 40
21. "Remember that, though mortal by nature and allotted a brief span of life, still through our conferences concerning Nature you have ascended to the infinity of space and time and have looked down upon 'the things that are, the things that shall be and the things that were before':' " EAP, page 110 Vatican Saying 10
22. "The potion mixed for us all at birth is a draught of death: - Metrodorus" EAP, page 119 Vatican Saying 30
23. """Gratitude is due to blessed Nature because she has made the necessities of life easy to procure and what is hard to procure unnecessary,"" 21 " EAP, page 128 Vatican Saying Lookiup
24. """The wise man will leave writings behind him but he will not compose panegyrics.""" EAP, page 131 Vatican Saying
25. """We must take into account the real end (of Nature) and every dependable sensation, to which we refer our judgments as a standard; otherwise everything will be filled with indecision and turmoil.""" NWD - Epicurus All Sensations pare True, p 24 Auth Doct 22
26. "If you reject a given sensation and fail to distinguish between (1) the judgment formed and (2) the impression awaiting confirmation and (3) the impression already made clear by virtue of the sensation and (4) the feelings and (5) every valid judgment of the mind, you will by the absurd judgment (No. 1 above) throw into confusion all the rest of the sensations with the result that you will reject the whole criterion."" " NWD - Epicurus All Sensations pare True, p 24 Auth Doct 24
27. """to despise those who do not understand things that owe their existence or occurrence to a single cause or to several causes and concede clear vision from distances.""" NWD - Epicurus All Sensations pare True, p 25 Letter to Herodotus
28. """All at the same time we should wear a smile, practice our philosophy, apply it in our households, take advantage of our other intimacies and never cease by every means to spread abroad the utterances of the true philosophy."" " Nwd - Epicurus and Leucippus Vatican Saying 41
29. """The same span of time embraces both beginning and end of the greatest good." NWD - The Summum Bonum Fallacy Vatican Saying 421
30. """Small is the man from every point of view who discovers many plausible reasons for taking leave of life.""" NWD - The Summum Bonum Fallacy Vatican Saying 38
31. """But even if deprived of his sight, [the wise man] will not turn aside from the journey of life.""" NWD - The Summum Bonum Fallacy Fragment On Lives
32. """Love goes dancing round the world preaching to us all to awake to the blessedness of the happy life."" " NWD - The Epicureanism of Titus Pomponius Atticus Vatican Saying 52
33. """To sea with your swift ship, blessed boy, and flee from all education (Paideia)""" EAHP, page 44
34. "Bravo, my lad! I congratulate you from beginning the study of philosophy free of all indiscretions""" EAHP, page 44
35. "The life of Epicurus in respect of gentleness and self-sufficiency, if compared with those of other men, would be considered a fairy-tale.""" EAHP, page 58
36. """Intercourse never was the cause of any good and it is fortunate if it does no harm."" See Tusculum Disputations 4.33.70 - 34.72" EAHP, page 63
37. "As for my own opinion, I presume that the high·steppers (Platonists) will think me really a pupil of the 'lung·fish' and that I listened to his lectures in the company of certain lads who were stupid from the night's carousing. For he was both an immoral man and addicted to such practices as made it impossible for him to arrive at wisdom.""" EAHP, page 63
38. """Vain is the word of that philosopher by which no malady of mankind is healed.""" EAP, page 67
39. """For just as there is no profit in medicine unless it expels the diseases of the body, so there is none in philosophy either unless it expels the malady of the soul,"" " EAP, page 67
40. "From the outset you must believe that no other end is gained from the knowledge of celestial phenomena, whether viewed in their associations [with the astral deities] or by themselves, than peace of soul and an abiding faith."" " EAP, page 68
41. "There is no one for whom the hour has not yet come nor for whom the hour has passed for attending to the health of his sou""" EAP, page 68
42. """For my own part I am at a loss to know what meaning I shall attach to the good, subtracting the pleasures of taste, subtracting the pleasures of love, subtracting the pleasures of the ears, subtracting also the pleasure of the eyes in beauty of form and beauty of movement,"" " EAP, page 73
43. "HOMER QUOTE: Verily ._ this is a beautiful thing, to be listening to a bard such as this man is, with a voice like the gods. For to my mind, I say, no consummation (telos) is nearer perfection than when rejoicing (euphTosune) prevails among the whole people and the banqueters seated in order in the halls are listening to a bard, when the tables abound in bread and meats and the wine-bearer draws the sweet drink from the mixing bowl and pours it into the cups."" 13" EAP, page 74
44. """Under no circumstance pass up an opportunity to disseminate the doctrines of the true philosophy."" 8" EAP, page 80
45. """If you wish to make Pythocles really rich, do not give him more money but try to lessen his desires.""" EAP, page 83
46. "The wise man on occasi,on will pay court to a monarch."" " EAP, page 85
47. """We must explain how best he will guard the end as established by Nature and how a man will not deliberately from the outset proceed to obtain the offices in the gift of the multitudes."" .,. Source is stated to be from Plutarch" EAP, page 87
48. "There are certain men who have gone out and arrived at truth without the aid of any man; they have carved out their own path."" " EAP, page 93
49. """I will be faithful to Epicurus according to whom it has been my choice to live."" " EAP, page 94
50. """There are certain men who need the aid of another; they will not go forward unless another goes ahead but they will make good followers."" 2" EAP, page 95
51. "Reverence for the wise man is a great blessing for the one who feels the reverence.""" EAP, page 98
52. "As a precious reward he will have the instruction given him by me:' 0" EAP, page 99
53. "I live in the present; still. I could not forget Epicurus even if could, for we followers of his not only have his portrait in paintings but also on drinking cups and finger-rings."" - Attributed to Atticus" EAP, page 100
54. """Love goes dancing round and round the inhabited earth. veritably shouting to us all to awake to the blessedness of the happy life,"" " EAP, page 101
55. """I am gorged with pleasure in this poor body of mine living on bread and water:' " EAP, page 102
56. "Friendship has its origin in needs, It is true that beginnings must be made in advance. for we also sow the ground. but it crystallizes only in the course of close association among those who have come to enjoy the fullness of pleasure.""" EAP, page 102
57. """The wise man will experi·ence a higher enjoyment than the rest of men in the public spectacles.""" EAP, page 107
58. """Only the wise man would be able to discourse rightly on mu-ic and poetry. but he would not actually compose poems,"" ~" EAP, page 107
59. ""
60. "Let us crown fine actions by another - only not sinking down- ward with feelings common to the mob - and, shaking free of this life upon the earth, rise to the divinely revealed orgies of Epicurus."" 13 Attributed to Metrodorus" EAP, page 109
61. "SOURCE OF TITLE - CRUCIAL DOCTRINES - The title chosen for his famous collection of forty doctrines was Kuriai Doxai. The precise meaning of this has remained so uncertain that a variety of renderings are in circulation from the pens of the best scholars: Peculiar Propositions, Established Beliefs, Principal Doctrines, Fundamental Tenets, Cardinal Principles, Sovran l\laxims, Authentic Doctrines, Pensees Maitresses. In this book they are being called Au- thorized Doctrines, an approximate rendering of Cicero's maxime ratae sentcntiac, ""doctrines specially endorsed""; Cicero was near the truth in believing them so named ""as being of supreme importance for the happy life."" 22 They were authorized for commitment to memory and stood opposed to the ""false doctrines"" of other philosophers and the multitude. An anonymous scholar has rightly !ltyled them Articles of Faith.~s" EAP, page 111
62. "ISONOMY: Again, the fifth and sixth principles declared the infinity of the universe. From this was deduced, on a prine ciple called isonomy, the existence of gods. Unless perfect beings existed somewhere in addition to imperfect beings, the universe would not be infinite; infinity applies to values no less than to space and matter." EAP, page 113
63. "Among these men whatever Hermarchus said, whatever Metrodorus said is directed to a single objective. Every thing that anyone said within that famous fellowship was said under the guidance and direction of a single mind. We cannot, I say, try as we may, select something Ollt of the vast accumulation of coordinated teachings and exalt it above the rest."" 34 Attributed to Seneca" EAP, page 114
64. "Well, let us be of good cheer. my dear friend, we possess a powerful antidote for such poisonous influences in 'the truth and the philosophy that is invariably right':' Attributed to Lucian" EAP, page 116
65. "The truly free man is justified in having a good laugh at all men and at these would-be Lycurguses and Solons:' 40 Attributed to Metrodorus" EAP, page 116
66. "Names for Platonists: In a similar vein Epicurus, whose aptitude for hitting upon satirical epithets was not unknown. dubbed Plato ""the Golden"" in derision of his undemocratic division of citizens into men of gold, silver, and iron. His Platonic adversaries of l\Iytilene were hit off as ""the deep-voiced,"" a name applied to ambitious second-rate actors. as if ""would-be Ham- lets,"" 41 The Platonists as a class he styled ""hangers-on of Dionysus:' 4: This has nothing to do with Dionysius of Syracuse and Plato's visits there. The meaning stems from Dionysus as the god of the theater. If illlcrprcted in the light of the ""deep-voiced"" and ""would-be Lycurguses and Solons,"" it ma~' be reasonably taken to describe those who assume a grand air, aspire to do kingly roles, and look down upon others as lowbrows_ This was no doubt the attilUde of the dominant philosophers toward the schoolteacher's son from Samos and his provincial following from Larnpsacus_" EAP, page 116
67. "Epicurus and I have not risen to great prominence but in days to come Epicurus and I shall possess a solid and assured fame among those who shall have chosen to walk in the same footsteps."" Attributed to Metrodorus" EAP, page 118
68. """For all accessory ideas (epinoiai) are derived from the sensations by virtue of coincidence, analogy. similarity and combination, reason also contributing something:'" EAP, page 125
69. "The Canon as Fallen from the Sky to us from Nature: The language of Epicurus sometimes swerves toward poetical diction, and in one of his more enthusiastic moments he seems to have been moved by gratitude to blessed Nature to characterize the Canon as diopetes, ""fallen from heaven,"" as ifit were a holy palladium. It was this epithet that Cicero was echoing when he dubbed it ""the celestial rule"" and more literally in another passage styled it as ""fallen from the sky."" 111 Plutarch, who employed part of his leisure in digging up old slurs out of the archives, wrote scornfully: ""It was not because Colotes had read 'the heaven-rlescended Canons' that bread was perceived by him to be bread and fodder fodder."" 16 Even after the time of Plutarch the Canon seemed good to the frivolous Alciphron for a joke between two courte· sans, the Epicurean Leontion and Lamia. mistress of Demetrius the Besieger: ""How long will one have to put up with this philosopher? Let him keep to his books on Physics, to his Authorized Doctrines and his cock-eyed Canons."" 1" EAP, page 127
70. """Moreover, it must be assumed also that human nature by sheer force of circum· stances was taught a multitude of lessons of all sorts and compelled to put them into practice, though reason subsequently contributed refine· ments and additions to these recommendations of hers, in some fields more rapidly, in others more slowly:" EAP, page 129
71. """There are two kinds of inquiry, the one about realities, the other ending lip in sound without sense."" " EAP, page 131

Quote from Nate

PD11. Undocumented in De Witt's works?

Gosh PD11 strikes me as too important not to be there, but it might be blended in with that point being made in Lucretius. That point (about scientific knowledge not being worthwhile in itself, which is related to the bad idea of arbitrary picking of one solution from many possible ones) would be a good one to find and further document.

Quote from Don

Ah! That's the wrinkle when you start looking at the original text.

I agree with that comment, but I also think that Norman DeWitt had read more Greek in his lifetime up to writing that book than any ten of us, so it's probably always worth considering whether he didn't see some connotation in the Greek literature where that word occurs that isn't obvious to us just using the dictionaries.

I see here is the paragraph Nate is citing from (I don't see it on page 188 but might be in a footnote?) and it certainly looks like DeWitt thought it appropriate to hammer home the "patronage of princes" part. Gosh only knows at this point why, but I wouldn't bet my life that he didn't have a reason. Maybe just a word association in his own mind for that particular Greek.

Nate I am going to edit your original post to put "PD" in front of each entry, and that way the site can pop up the box that takes you to the main entry we have for each one. I hope that's ok - we can fix it back if not!

I always presumed he was referring to kings and kingdoms but never investigated the Greek for PD14.

Depending upon the context of each one, it seems to me that I remember that DeWitt stated on some of these that he was intentionally paraphrasing to get what he thought was the right meaning rather than strictly according to the text. Plus, on some of these the text is disputed, and again if I recall correctly Dewitt talks about his text choice in making the translation. However those caveats could be applied to any of the translators, and as long as we compare the different versions and keep in mind that no single translation has been blessed by Epicurus himself, we can hope to come to a reasonable approximation of what Epicurus intended.

And that's illustrated, now that I look back at the list, that Dewitt translated them sometimes two or three different ways himself!

Wow thank you Nate! I cannot tell you how many times I have told myself to do exactly such as list but never got the time to do it. Thank you very much!!!

On first thought Camotero I think the issue is that there are a couple(?) Of text references to Epicurus talking about "casting the mind" such as in his figurative journey through space, and so that tends to get picked up by commentators when they see something about "applying the mind.". Pretty clearly Epicurus stressed that thinking requires action of the mind applied to observations, and I don't think there is much more to it than that. The bottom line for me would be that we don't often need the full details but we do need the overall outline in order to apply our minds in an organized way to figuring out problems consistent with the overall view. You could reverse that and say you are applying the principles to the problem but I doubt that makes much difference.

Maybe you are asking something else?

Wow very interesting on amber - now I am confused myself where it comes from!

Holiday weekends are great!

Episode Eighty-Seven of Lucretius Today is now available. In this episode we will continue into Book Six and discuss earthquakes, the water cycle, and the possible relationship of the "Chicken Little" fable to some of this text. Thanks to Martin for reading this week:

Martin has pointed out what appears to be an excellent opportunity to put together a special presentation on Epicurean views of "formal logic" and its relationship to reality. The opportunity comes from our mention in an earlier thread of the following statement by Torquatus in Cicero's On Ends:

Again, the thread reference was here, and below is a copy of Martin's post: RE: Issues In The Meaning And Definition of Logic

One way of stating the issue is that the laws of formal logic in fact do allow a syllogistic construction in which the conclusion is true while one or more premises or false. This is not the way non-experts think that logic works, so it is important that non-experts understand what the experts are asserting, so that they can see that the assertions of formal logic need not be connected with reality -- and for that reason normal people should not infer that formal logic can be used to "disprove reality."

We're going to see if we can put together some reference material that will make this issue easier to understand, and hopefully trace it all the way back to Aristotle if not earlier.

The issue of logic being a tool that can be consistent within itself, and yet not be connected with practical reality, is something that we see come up over and over. It seems to me that this is counterintuitive to the way most non-experts approach the issue of logic, so it will be great to see if we can develop a presentation that will make the issue easier for the average person to understand.