Posts by Cassius

Very good! Thank you and keep us posted on your comments!

Welcome AGB !

This is the place for students of Epicurus to coordinate their studies and work together to promote the philosophy of Epicurus. Please remember that all posting here is subject to our Community Standards / Rules of the Forum our Not Neo-Epicurean, But Epicurean and our Posting Policy statements and associated posts.

Please understand that the leaders of this forum are well aware that many fans of Epicurus may have sincerely-held views of what Epicurus taught that are incompatible with the purposes and standards of this forum. This forum is dedicated exclusively to the study and support of people who are committed to classical Epicurean views. As a result, this forum is not for people who seek to mix and match some Epicurean views with positions that are inherently inconsistent with the core teachings of Epicurus.

All of us who are here have arrived at our respect for Epicurus after long journeys through other philosophies, and we do not demand of others what we were not able to do ourselves. Epicurean philosophy is very different from other viewpoints, and it takes time to understand how deep those differences really are. That's why we have membership levels here at the forum which allow for new participants to discuss and develop their own learning, but it's also why we have standards that will lead in some cases to arguments being limited, and even participants being removed, when the purposes of the community require it. Epicurean philosophy is not inherently democratic, or committed to unlimited free speech, or devoted to any other form of organization other than the pursuit by our community of happy living through the principles of Epicurean philosophy.

One way you can be most assured of your time here being productive is to tell us a little about yourself and personal your background in reading Epicurean texts. It would also be helpful if you could tell us how you found this forum, and any particular areas of interest that you have which would help us make sure that your questions and thoughts are addressed.

In that regard we have found over the years that there are a number of key texts and references which most all serious students of Epicurus will want to read and evaluate for themselves. Those include the following.

1. "Epicurus and His Philosophy" by Norman DeWitt
2. The Biography of Epicurus by Diogenes Laertius. This includes the surviving letters of Epicurus, including those to Herodotus, Pythocles, and Menoeceus.
3. "On The Nature of Things" - by Lucretius (a poetic abridgement of Epicurus' "On Nature"
4. "Epicurus on Pleasure" - By Boris Nikolsky
5. The chapters on Epicurus in Gosling and Taylor's "The Greeks On Pleasure."
6. Cicero's "On Ends" - Torquatus Section
7. Cicero's "On The Nature of the Gods" - Velleius Section
8. The Inscription of Diogenes of Oinoanda - Martin Ferguson Smith translation
9. A Few Days In Athens" - Frances Wright
10. Lucian Core Texts on Epicurus: (1) Alexander the Oracle-Monger, (2) Hermotimus
11. Philodemus "On Methods of Inference" (De Lacy version, including his appendix on relationship of Epicurean canon to Aristotle and other Greeks)
12. "The Greeks on Pleasure" -Gosling & Taylor Sections on Epicurus, especially the section on katastematic and kinetic pleasure which explains why ultimately this distinction was not of great significance to Epicurus.

It is by no means essential or required that you have read these texts before participating in the forum, but your understanding of Epicurus will be much enhanced the more of these you have read.

And time has also indicated to us that if you can find the time to read one book which will best explain classical Epicurean philosophy, as opposed to most modern "eclectic" interpretations of Epicurus, that book is Norman DeWitt's Epicurus And His Philosophy.

Welcome to the forum!

It looks like we have a significant difference among sources as to how PD14 should end, so we need to have a discussion as to why that is the case, and this thread is the best place for that. This is prompted by Nate's graphic here Principal Doctrine 14 which cites Inwood and Gerson:

XIV "The purest security is that which comes from a quiet life and withdrawal from the many, although a certain degree of security from other men does come by means of the power to repel [attacks] and by means of prosperity." (Epicurus, Principal Doctrine 14) PD14 Translated by Inwood and Gerson (1994)

The other cites we've listed initially are:

Bailey Version: 14. The most unalloyed source of protection from men, which is secured to some extent by a certain force of expulsion, is in fact the immunity which results from a quiet life, and retirement from the world.

Greek: 14Τῆς ἀσφαλείας τῆς ἐξ ἀνθρώπων γενομένης μέχρι τινὸς δυνάμει τινὶ ἐξερειστικῇ καὶ εὐπορίᾳ εἰλικρινεστάτη γίνεται ἡ ἐκ τῆς ἡσυχίας καὶ ἐκχωρήσεως τῶν πολλῶν ἀσφάλεια.

Hicks translation: 14 When tolerable security against our fellow-men is attained, then on a basis of power arises most genuine bliss, to wit, the security of a private life withdrawn from the multitude.

Saint-Andre translation: 14 Although some measure of safety from others comes from the power to fight them off and from abundant wealth, the purest security comes from solitude and breaking away from the herd.

Emidio Spinnelli paper: The purest security is that which comes from a quiet life and withdrawal from the many, after having obtained a certain degree of security with respect to other men by means of comfort and prosperity.

Yes it is not really focused on Laertius and contains other material as well.

It's good to have too, bit I think you want a translation if the entire set of books. They are actually fun to read

Yes and I was referring to to the tendency of Amazon to convert scans of old books to "print on demand" which may turn out to be of a quality inferior to what you can get at a used book store. I haven't ordered many like that but it's my understanding that the print on demand product might not be satisfactory in some cases. I always prefer the originals when possible.

The Epicurus reader is well respected. I would be careful about the Yonge and Hicks versions from Amazon as they may be cheap reprints. Have you searched Ebay or places like Abebooks?

Don may have recommendations....

That was less than two months ago and I had completely forgotten about it too!

Don is this part of this article incorrect as to the text where it asserts that the texts asserts positively.....?

Quote from Don

Well, the original does say:

Original text: Καὶ μηδὲ καὶ γαμήσειν καὶ τεκνοποιήσειν τὸν σοφόν....

Here marriage is specifically mentioned: γαμήσειν "to be married" and τεκνοποιήσειν "to bear children" and μηδὲ is negation so..

And neither marry nor bear children..

But the following phrases seem to say that "under certain circumstances" the wise one will turn aside (from this course) and marry.

Yep - some say one way, some say the other way, as below. Seems to me the best course is to be sure to mark the passage as controversial and apparently corrupted

I forget how many volumes the Loeb is in..... But to be clear, Bailey is only Book 10.

Here's another issue with Mensch, and since I am all in favor of Epicureans marrying and having lots of children so there will be more Epicureans, I consider this a serious problem with this version There's a lot of controversy about that line and apparently the text is unclear, but I resolve that dispute consistently with Epicurus providing in his will for Metrodorus' daughter eventually to be married to a member of the school. It doesn't look like in Mensch that she even annotates it, but just chooses what I perceive to be the negative option.

In my case Mensch has not proved to be a new favorite, and here is one reason, comparing PD3:

Epicurus Wiki:

Mensch:

For me, I usually see the translators include what the Epicurus wiki renders as "magnitude" (I think Bailey uses "quantity.") I happen to think that is a very important word, and I am sorry to see Mensch leave it out. My general impression is that she is being a little too free with the translation and less literal than would be desired given that the material can be pretty complex.

Quote from Don

The question also depends on whether one just wants Book X - in which case Bailey would need fine - or of you want the entire Lives to see all of Epicurus's mentions plus all the other philosophers.

Right - there is a tremendous amount of good information in the other books

One way of considering Mensch would be to look at her translations of the PD's:

I think if I were buying one I might go with Loeb too, for the benefit of the side-by-side Greek text.

As for the Bailey edition, that would be Bailey's "Extant Remains" which would be good to have if you can find a used copy, and would have a lot more material on it about Epicurus.

That might be better but I doubt it will suit us as a final position. This is something that is going to take some long thought and discussion probably.

Question from reader : I found many topics in the forums talking about the different versions of this book. I'm not good at reading electronic versions, so I want to buy it. Which version would you recommend? From a post of yours of some months ago, I gather it would be Bailey's? Thanks

Quote from Don

I'm not sure I have a better one than "feeling" but I'm searching.

As important as this "of the ____________ there are two" is, it's probably worth putting some real effort into finding a way to convey this more clearly, or at least a way to explain why whatever term is used should not carry all the connotations that we place on it in modern English.

What do you see as the preferred translation of "pathe"?

Passion? Or what?

Don I think our issue here, and the main difficulty in articulating this, is that there is an ambiguity / mismatch between English "Feeling" and Greek "pathe" --- It sounds like Epicurus said there are only two pathe / passions, but in English we have many "feelings" which are neither pleasurable nor painful.

I touch a piece of wood and it's "hard" but the feeling is neither necessarily painful nor pleasurable. Now we can attempt to deal with that by referring perhaps to other experiences at the same time (we're taking pleasure in simply being alive) but we have a communication mismatch to deal with between English "feeling" of which there are many, and Greek "Pathe" of which there are only two.

So if we could triangulate on a better word for "pathe" that is not the same as "feeling" we'd probably be better off. Apparently the translators prefer "passions" but the bad guys have loaded that word so negatively that it may not be usable for this purpose.