Posts by Cassius

Discussion of the "Non-Aggression Principle" (abbreviated NAP) can skate perilously close to violating our rule against discussing modern politics, so that is something that I want us all to keep in mind in this thread. However the topic is also closely related to the concept of "Justice," which is specifically discussed at length by Epicurus, so it is a subject we should tackle.

Wikipedia defines the Non-Aggression Principle as follows:

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The non-aggression principle (NAP), also called the non-aggression axiom, is a concept in which aggression, defined as initiating or threatening any forceful interference with either an individual or their property,^{[note 1]} is inherently wrong.^[1][2] It is considered by some to be a defining principle of libertarianism in the United States^{[3][better source needed]} and is also a prominent idea in anarcho-capitalism and minarchism.^[4][5][6][7] In contrast to pacifism, the NAP does not forbid forceful defense.^{[3][better source needed]} There is no single or universal interpretation or definition of the NAP as it faces several definitional issues, including those revolving around intellectual property, force, abortion, and other topics.

This is a definition that deserves close examination in relation to the Epicurean view of "Justice" as stated by Epicurus in the last ten Principle Doctrines:

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PD31. The justice which arises from nature is a pledge of mutual advantage, to restrain men from harming one another, and save them from being harmed.

PD32. For all living things which have not been able to make compacts not to harm one another, or be harmed, nothing ever is either just or unjust; and likewise, too, for all tribes of men which have been unable, or unwilling, to make compacts not to harm or be harmed.

PD33. Justice never is anything in itself, but in the dealings of men with one another, in any place whatever, and at any time, it is a kind of compact not to harm or be harmed.

PD34. Injustice is not an evil in itself, but only in consequence of the fear which attaches to the apprehension of being unable to escape those appointed to punish such actions.

PD35. It is not possible for one who acts in secret contravention of the terms of the compact not to harm or be harmed to be confident that he will escape detection, even if, at present, he escapes a thousand times. For up to the time of death it cannot be certain that he will indeed escape.

PD36. In its general aspect, justice is the same for all, for it is a kind of mutual advantage in the dealings of men with one another; but with reference to the individual peculiarities of a country, or any other circumstances, the same thing does not turn out to be just for all.

PD37. Among actions which are sanctioned as just by law, that which is proved, on examination, to be of advantage, in the requirements of men's dealings with one another, has the guarantee of justice, whether it is the same for all or not. But if a man makes a law, and it does not turn out to lead to advantage in men's dealings with each other, then it no longer has the essential nature of justice. And even if the advantage in the matter of justice shifts from one side to the other, but for a while accords with the general concept, it is nonetheless just for that period, in the eyes of those who do not confound themselves with empty sounds, but look to the actual facts.

PD38. Where, provided the circumstances have not been altered, actions which were considered just have been shown not to accord with the general concept, in actual practice, then they are not just. But where, when circumstances have changed, the same actions which were sanctioned as just no longer lead to advantage, they were just at the time, when they were of advantage for the dealings of fellow-citizens with one another, but subsequently they are no longer just, when no longer of advantage.

PD39. The man who has best ordered the element of disquiet arising from external circumstances has made those things that he could akin to himself, and the rest at least not alien; but with all to which he could not do even this, he has refrained from mixing, and has expelled from his life all which it was of advantage to treat thus.

PD40. As many as possess the power to procure complete immunity from their neighbors, these also live most pleasantly with one another, since they have the most certain pledge of security, and, after they have enjoyed the fullest intimacy, they do not lament the previous departure of a dead friend, as though he were to be pitied.

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Just to begin the discussion, however, I see an immediate red flag in the part of the definition which says "is inherently wrong." Can that stand up to Epicurean scrutiny?

This post just opens the topic. Let's discuss the whole issue in detail as it comes up over and over, especially in terms of Voluntaryianism and Autarchy.

I don't have nearly as good a command of where things are in Lucretius as I should have. I just checked one of my references however and definitely Book 3 is the main text, but there is some material in Book 2, especially near the end, that discusses how the living arises from the non-living, and that is pretty relevant to the topic too.

Here is one of my online topical outlines of Lucretius:

Lucretius - On The Nature of Things []

Yes I would say that the description in Lucretius Godfrey refers to is the basic material.

If I had to summarize my understanding I would also refer to the "properties of the particles" and "qualities" / "events" of the bodies that are formed from the particles. Probably a large part of what most people are looking for is a discussion of how life arises from non-life, and that issue revolves around the "emerging" aspect of how bodies have qualities that are not inherent in the particles and void of which they are composed.

It also seems that "soul" and "spirit" are used almost interchangeably.

I note in the original post the reference to "all living things" having a soul, and I am not sure about that. Plants? I am thinking that Epicurus would not necessarily equate a soul/spirit to life, and that you might we'll be able to have life without having a soul - that soul / spirit might be why we call some but not all living things "animals".

Also, following the point made in Long's "Chance and Natural Law in Epicureanism" I think it is important to keep in mind that "the swerve" does not exhibit itself to our view except in certain situations (free will of animals primarily). If they indeed thought that way, that would explain the emphasis on the soul being extremely fine / light / fast moving - characteristics in which the swerve might best "break through" to allow free will.

It does seem that people like to read their own conclusions into Epicurus as if they were obvious. We too are probably guilty if it, but it is very important that we keep that tendency in check, as it will keep us from being open to deeper insights if we simply presume he thought as we do and then stop inquiring.

Well given that it's pretty clear that Epicurus saw the totality of the universe as an unlimited number of separate worlds, with the Intermundia presumably located between those worlds, it's probably to be expected that Epicurus thought the worlds were divided from each other and the Intermundia by something. And given that we see the stars in the sky at night, like Don says, it would be logical to have those divisions be fiery. I guess that's about as far as my own speculation leads.

Jack -. Anyone here at the forum who reads your posts in the immediate or distant future will be able to respond to you, and I hope they will.

One thing you do need to keep in mind, however, is that this forum is dedicated primarily to the pursuit of Epicurean philosophy, and not primarily to any particular implementation that an individual sees as best for himself.

I have started listening to what I think is the first of the two podcasts you linked, and you sound like a very interesting person living a very interesting life - I liked your variation on the Socrates unexamined life statement.

Bit I do think that you're going to find that the people here don't see Epicurean philosophy as a pathway to some other organizing principle, Voluntaryianism or otherwise, but as a worldview and method of thinking that allows them to see for themselves what is best for them.

I do agree with you that many will choose your basic approach, but I make that prediction because I am primarily dedicated to understanding Epicurus first, and only through that background do I see the benefits and limits of Voluntaryianism. And I do see the limits of it, because applying Epicurean principles I would also affirm that there is not a single method that is best for all people at all times in all places.

I will continue to listen to the podcast and will have more to say.

(Edited to insert an important "not" in the next to last paragraph.)

I see that the latest forum update has resulted in the "like" (reaction) button moving to the bottom of the post where it's easier to find after reading the post. I think that's an improvement even though it may initially confuse our regular users.

I have wondered the same thing without much progress. I've not seen that Loeb comment (presumably Rouse or Smith himself?) And though I kind of like it I find it unlikely. My thoughts are pretty much like Don's - with the addition that maybe they knew of the Northern Lights?

In the most recent upgrade of the forum, the software makers introduced the poorly-conceived and rather obnoxious "Official Post" button and label next to the name of administrators/moderators. Such a button/labeel is probably useful on "help" forums, but is out of place here. I am working to get that button/label removed as soon as possible, but it appears that the software people did not provide a way to disable it - something that is causing some significant irritation on the software support forum for the manufacturer.

As soon as another update is released that button/label will be gone.

Jack at this time we have no provisions for live audio interaction. Our podcast is strictly going through the Lucretius poem for now, and we have not done interviews. We've been talking about launching other podcasts but we have no immediate plans as we've been working on finishing Lucretius.

As to posting in the forum for written discussions, yes I think you understand what I was suggesting. Posting written exchanges that others can find and read over time is the main benefit of the forum structure.

I think many of us here are also interested in expanded live interaction, but we haven't had an immediate stimulus to get started. Maybe your appearance here will prove to be that stimulus, but i suspect that others like me will need time to download and review what you've posted already.

I do agree with you that recorded live discussions are very very useful, so let's see if others here have comments or suggestions, and we'll continue discussing how to proceed with this.

Welcome to Episode Eighty of Lucretius Today.

I am your host Cassius, and together with my panelists from the EpicureanFriends.com forum, we'll walk you through the six books of Lucretius' poem, and discuss how Epicurean philosophy can apply to you today. We encourage you to study Epicurus for yourself, and we suggest the best place to start is the book, "Epicurus and His Philosophy" by Canadian professor Norman DeWitt.

For anyone who is not familiar with our podcast, please visit EpicureanFriends.com where you will find our goals and our ground rules. If you have any questions about those, please be sure to contact us at the forum for more information.

In this Episode 80 we will read approximately Latin lines 1226-1341 of Book Five. We will talk in this episode about the development of the art of war.

Now let's join Don reading today's text.

(Martin was scheduled but due to technical difficulties Don stepped in.)

Munro Notes- 1226 - 1341

1226-1240: Nay who does not dread the thunder, lest it be a presage of divine vengeance 1 think too of generals and armies whelmed in the sea; of all men's glories dashed down to the dust by some hidden power: no wonder that men abase themselves before the gods.

1241-1280: the metals were discovered through the burning of woods which baked the earth and caused the ore to run ; with these they made arms and tools: copper at first was rated more highly than useless gold and silver; now it is the contrary; thus things in turn flourish and decay.

1281-1307: for arms men used at first hands nails teeth clubs, then fire, then copper or brass, at last iron; horses next, then chariots, then elephants were employed in war, strife begetting one horror after another.

1308-1349: bulls boars and lions too were tried in war; but they often turned upon their owners, as elephants are sometimes seen to do now: probably they were employed by the weaker side only in despair.

Browne 1743

[1226] And when the raging force of a violent storm upon the sea tosses the admiral of a fleet over the waves, with all his elephants and his stout legions about him, does not he fall to praying to the gods for pity? And, trembling upon his knees, begs a peace of the winds, and a prosperous gale? In vain! For he is often snatched up by the violence of the hurricane, and carried with all his devotion to the Stygian ferry. With such contempt does some hidden power continually trample upon human greatness, it treads with scorn upon the gaudy rods and the cruel axes, those ensigns of empire, and makes a sport with them.

[1236] And then, when the whole Earth reels under our feet, and the cities are shaken, and tumble about us, or at least threaten to fall, what wonder if men at such a time despise their own weak selves, and ascribe infinite power and irresistible force to the gods, by which they direct and govern the world?

[1241] And last of all brass, and gold, and iron were discovered, and the value of silver, and the weight of lead. For when the whole forests upon the high hills were consumed by fire, whether it came by lightning from the heavens or men carried on a war among themselves in the woods, and set them in a blaze to terrify their enemies; or whether, induced by the goodness of the soil, they resolved to enlarge their fruitful fields and make pastures for their cattle; or whether it was to destroy the wild beasts and enrich themselves with their spoils (for the first way of taking the game was by pitfalls, and fire before they surrounded the brakes with nets, or hunted with dogs); however it was, or whatever was the cause of this raging fire, that burnt up the woods to the very roots with frightful noise, and set the Earth a boiling with its heat - Then streams of silver and gold, of brass and lead, flowed out of the burning veins into hollow places of the Earth that were proper for them. And when the metal grew hard, and men observed it looking beautifully and shining bright upon the ground, they were charmed with its gay and sparkling luster, and dug it up. And finding that it received the exact shape of the hollow molds in which it lay, they concluded, when it was melted by the heat, it would run into any form and figure they pleased, and they might draw it into a sharp point or a fine edge, and make themselves tools to cut down the woods, to smooth, to square, and to plane timber, to pierce, to hollow, and to bore. These instruments they attempted to make of silver and gold, no less, than by powerful blows to form the stronger brass; but in vain! For the soft quality of those metals gave way, and could not bear the force and violence of the stroke; and so brass was in most value, and gold was neglected, as a blunt useless metal that would not hold an edge. But now brass is in no esteem, and gold succeeds to all its honors. And thus a course of flowing time changes the dignity of things. What was highly prized is now treated with contempt, and what was despised comes into its place, and is every day more eagerly pursued, is cried up with the greatest applause, and receives the respect and admiration of mankind.

[1281] And now, my Memmius, you may easily, of yourself, perceive by what means the force of iron was discovered. The first weapons were hands, and nails, and teeth, and stones, and the broken boughs of trees; and then they learned to fight with fire and flame, and afterwards was the strength of iron and brass found out. But the use of brass was known before the benefit of iron was understood, for it was a metal more easy to work, and in greater plenty. With brazen shares they ploughed the ground, with arms of brass they carried on the rage of war, and dealt deep wounds about, and seized upon their neighbors cattle and their fields, for everything naked and unarmed was easily forced to give way. But the iron sword came gradually into use, and instruments of brass were laid aside with contempt. And now they began to plough with iron, and with weapons of iron to engage in the doubtful events of war.

[1297] And men first learned to mount the horse, with their left hand to manage the reins, and they fought with their right, before they tried the dangers of war in a chariot drawn by two. They first used a chariot with a pair, and then they harnessed four, before they knew how to engage in chariots armed with scythes. The Carthaginians taught the Libyan elephants, with their serpentine proboscis and towers upon their backs, to bear the smart of wounds, and to disorder the embattled ranks of the enemy. And thus the rage of discord found out one art of slaughter after another, as the dreadful scourges of mankind, and increased the terrors of war every day.

[1308] They tried the fury of bulls in their battles, and drove boars against their cruel enemies. The Parthians placed roaring lions before their ranks, with their armed keepers, and fierce leaders, to govern their rage and hold them in chains. In vain! For growing hot with the mixed blood they had tasted, they broke in their fury through the troops of friends and enemies without distinction, shaking their dreadful manes on every side. Nor could the horsemen cool their frightened horses, distracted with the roaring of the beasts, or turn them with reins against the foe. The lions with rage sprung out, and threw their bodies every way, and flew upon the faces that they met. Others they suddenly fell on behind, and clasped with their paws, and with sore wounds overcome, they flung them to the ground, and held them down with their strong teeth and with their crooked claws. The bulls would toss the boars and crush them with their feet, and with their horns would gore the sides and bellies of the horses, and in their rage bear them to the earth. The bears with their strong teeth destroyed their friends (and cruelly stained the darts unbroken, with their master’s blood, the darts that broke upon themselves were stained with their own) and brought confused ruin upon man and horse; for though the horse, by leaping aside, would strive to fly the cruel biting of their teeth, or, rearing up, pawed with their feet the yielding air; yet all in vain! You would see them, hamstrung by the beasts, fall down and with their heavy weight would shake the ground. These creatures therefore that men saw were tame at home, now brought into the war grew mad with wounds, with noise, with flying, with terror, and the tumult of the battle; nor could they by any means be brought back or cooled again, but every kind flew wildly over the plains; as when a bull, not rightly struck by the priest’s sacrificing axe, breaks loose, after much mischief done to all about him.

[1341] These were the first arts of war; yet I cannot believe but the first inventors must consider and foresee the common evils and sad calamities they must occasion. This, it is safer to say, was the case in general in some of all the worlds that were created in various manners, than to be particular and fix it upon one only. But they made use of beasts in their wars not so much from a hope of victory as to annoy and torment their enemies; being themselves sure to die because they distrusted their numbers and were unskilled in the use of arms.

Munro 1886

[1226] When too the utmost fury of the headstrong wind passes over the sea and sweeps over its waters the commander of a fleet together with his mighty legions and elephants, does he not draw near with vows to seek the mercy of the gods and ask in prayer with fear and trembling a lull in the winds and propitious gales; but all in vain, since often caught up in the furious hurricane he is borne nonetheless to the shoals of death? So constantly does some hidden power trample on human grandeur and is seen to tread under its heel and make sport for itself of the renowned rods and cruel axes.

[1236] Again, when the whole earth rocks under their feet and towns tumble with the shock or doubtfully threaten to fall, what wonder that mortal men abase themselves and make over to the gods in things hereon earth high prerogatives and marvelous powers, sufficient to govern all things?

[1241] To proceed, copper and gold and iron were discovered and at the same time weighty silver and the substance of lead, when fire with its heat had burnt up vast forests on the great hills, either by a discharge of heaven’s lightning, or else because men waging with one another a forest-war had carried fire among the enemy in order to strike terror, or because drawn on by the goodness of the soil they would wish to clear rich fields and bring the country into pasture, or else to destroy wild beasts and enrich themselves with the booty; for hunting with the pitfall and with fire came into use before the practice of enclosing the lawn with toils and stirring it with dogs. Whatever the fact is, from whatever cause the heat of flame had swallowed up the forests with a frightful crackling from their very roots and had thoroughly baked the earth with fire, there would run from the boiling veins and collect into the hollows of the ground a stream of silver and gold, as well as of copper and lead. And when they saw these afterwards cool into lumps and glitter on the earth with a brilliant gleam, they would lift them up attracted by the bright and polished luster, and they would see them to be molded in a shape the same as the outline of the cavities in which each lay. Then it would strike them that these might be melted by heat and cast in any form or shape soever, and might by hammering out be brought to tapering points of any degree of sharpness and fineness, so as to furnish them with tools and enable them to cut the forests and hew timber and plane smooth the planks, and also to drill and pierce and bore. And they would set about these works just as much with silver and gold at first as with the overpowering strength of stout copper, but in vain, since their force would fail and give way and not be able like copper to stand the severe strain. At that time copper was in higher esteem and gold would lie neglected on account of its uselessness, with its dull blunted edge: now copper lies neglected, gold has mounted up to the highest place of honor. Thus time as it goes round changes the seasons of things. That which was in esteem falls at length into utter disrepute; and then another thing mounts up and issues out of its degraded state and every day is more and more coveted and blossoms forth high in honor when discovered and is in marvelous repute with men.

[1281] And now, Memmius, it is easy for you to find out by yourself in what way the nature of iron was discovered. Arms of old were hands nails and teeth and stones and boughs broken off from the forests, and flame and fire, as soon as they had become known. Afterwards the force of iron and copper was discovered; and the use of copper was known before that of iron, as its nature is easier to work and it is found in greater quantity. With copper they would labor the soil of the earth, with copper stir up the billows of war and deal about wide-gaping wounds and seize cattle and lands; for every thing defenseless and unarmed would readily yield to them with arms in hand. Then by slow steps the sword of iron gained ground and the make of the copper sickle became a byword; and with iron they began to plow through the earth’s soil, and the struggles of wavering war were rendered equal.

[1297] And the custom of mounting in arms on the back of a horse and guiding him with reins and showing prowess with the right hand is older than that of tempting the risks of war in a two-horsed chariot; and yoking a pair of horses is older than yoking four or mounting in arms scythed chariots. Next the Poeni taught the lucan kine with towered body, hideous of aspect, with snake-like hand, to endure the wounds of war and to disorder the mighty ranks of Mars. Thus sad discord begat one thing after another, to affright nations of men under arms, and every day made some addition to the terrors of war.

[1308]They made trial of bulls too in the service of war and essayed to send savage boars against the enemy. And some sent before them valorous lions with armed trainers and courageous keepers to guide them and to hold them in chains; but in vain, since heated with promiscuous slaughter they would disorder in their rage the troops without distinction, shaking all about the frightful crests upon their heads; and the horsemen were not able to calm the breasts of the horses scared by the roaring and turn them with the bridle upon the enemy. The lionesses with a spring would throw their enraged bodies on all sides and would attack in the face those who met them, and others off their guard they would tear down from behind and twining round them would bring them to the ground overpowered by the wound, fastening on them with firm bite and with hooked claws. The bulls would toss their own friends and trample them under foot, and gore with their horns the flanks and bellies of the horses underneath and turn up the earth with threatening front. The boars too would rend their friends with powerful tusks, in their rage dying with their blood the weapons broken in them, ay dying with their blood the weapons broken in their own bodies; and would put to promiscuous rout horse and foot; for the tame beasts would try to avoid by shying to the side the cruel push of the tusk, or would rear up and paw the winds, all in vain, since you might see them tumble down with their tendons severed and straw the in their heavy fall. Those whom they believed before to have been sufficiently broken in at home, they would see lash themselves into fury in the heat of action from wounds and shouting, flight panic and uproar; and they could not rally any portion of them; for all the different kinds of wild beasts would fly all abroad; just as now the lucan kine when cruelly mangled by the steel fly often all abroad, after inflicting on their friends many cruel sufferings.

[1341] But men chose thus to act not so much in any hope of victory, as from a wish to give the enemy something to rue at the cost of their own lives, when they mistrusted their numbers and were in want of arms.

Bailey 1921

[1226] Or again, when the fiercest force of furious wind at sea sweeps the commander of a fleet over the waters with his strong legions and his elephants, all in like case, does he not seek with vows the peace of the gods, and fearfully crave in prayer a calm from wind and favouring breezes; all in vain, since often when caught in the headstrong hurricane he is borne for all his prayers to the shallow waters of death? So greatly does some secret force grind beneath its heel the greatness of men, and it is seen to tread down and make sport for itself of the glorious rods and relentless axes.

[1236] Again, when the whole earth rocks beneath men’s feet, and cities are shaken to their fall or threaten doubtful of their doom, what wonder if the races of mortal men despise themselves and leave room in the world for the mighty power and marvellous strength of the gods, to guide all things?

[1241] For the rest, copper and gold and iron were discovered, and with them the weight of silver and the usefulness of lead, when a fire had burnt down vast forests with its heat on mighty mountains, either when heaven’s lightning was hurled upon it, or because waging a forest-war with one another men had carried fire among the foe to rouse panic, or else because allured by the richness of the land they desired to clear the fat fields, and make the countryside into pasture, or else to put the wild beasts to death, and enrich themselves with prey. For hunting with pit and fire arose first before fencing the grove with nets and scaring the beasts with dogs. However that may be, for whatever cause the flaming heat had eaten up the forests from their deep roots with terrible crackling, and had baked the earth with fire, the streams of silver and gold, and likewise of copper and lead, gathered together and trickled from the boiling veins into hollow places in the ground. And when they saw them afterwards hardened and shining on the ground with brilliant hue, they picked them up, charmed by their smooth bright beauty, and saw that they were shaped with outline like that of the several prints of the hollows. Then it came home to them that these metals might be melted by heat, and would run into the form and figure of anything, and indeed might be hammered out and shaped into points and tips, however sharp and fine, so that they might fashion weapons for themselves, and be able to cut down forests and hew timber and plane beams smooth, yea, and to bore and punch and drill holes. And, first of all, they set forth to do this no less with silver and gold than with the resistless strength of stout copper; all in vain, since their power was vanquished and yielded, nor could they like the others endure the cruel strain. For copper was of more value, and gold was despised for its uselessness, so soon blunted with its dull edge. Now copper is despised, gold has risen to the height of honour. So rolling time changes the seasons of things. What was of value, becomes in turn of no worth; and then another thing rises up and leaves its place of scorn, and is sought more and more each day, and when found blossoms into fame, and is of wondrous honour among men.

[1281] Now, in what manner the nature of iron was found, it is easy for you to learn of yourself, Memmius. Their arms of old were hands, nails, and teeth, and stones, and likewise branches torn from the forests, and flame and fires, when once they were known. Thereafter the strength of iron and bronze was discovered. And the use of bronze was learnt before that of iron, inasmuch as its nature is more tractable, and it is found in greater stores. With bronze they would work the soil of the earth, and with bronze mingle in billowy warfare, and deal wasting wounds and seize upon flocks and fields. For all things naked and unarmed would readily give in to them equipped with arms. Then, little by little, the iron sword made its way, and the form of the bronze sickle was made a thing of scorn, and with iron they began to plough up the soil of earth; and the contests of war, now hovering in doubt, were made equal.

[1297] It was their way to climb armed on to the flanks of a horse, to guide it with reins, and do doughty deeds with the right hand, before they learnt to essay the dangers of war in a two-horsed chariot. And the yoking of two horses came before yoking four, and climbing up armed into chariots set with scythes. Then it was the Poeni who taught the Lucanian kine, with towered body, grim beasts with snaky hands, to bear the wounds of warfare, and work havoc among the hosts of Mars. So did gloomy discord beget one thing after another, to bring panic into the races of men in warfare, and day by day gave increase to the terrors of war.

[1308] They tried bulls, too, in the service of war, and essayed to send savage boars against the foe. And some sent on before them mighty lions with armed trainers and cruel masters, who might be able to control them, and hold them in chains; all in vain, since in the heat of the mellay of slaughter they grew savage, and made havoc of the hosts, both sides alike, tossing everywhere the fearful manes upon their heads, nor could the horsemen soothe the hearts of their horses, alarmed at the roaring, and turn them with their bridles against the foe. The lionesses launched their furious bodies in a leap on every side, and made for the faces of those that came against them, or tore them down in the rear when off their guard, and twining round them hurled them to the ground foredone with the wound, fastening on them with their strong bite and crooked claws. The bulls tossed their own friends and trampled them with their feet, and with their horns gashed the flanks and bellies of the horses underneath, and ploughed up the ground with threatening purpose. And the boars gored their masters with their strong tusks, savagely splashing with their own blood the weapons broken in them, and threw to the ground horsemen and footmen in one heap. For the horses would swerve aside to avoid the fierce onset of a tusk, or rear and beat the air with their feet; all in vain, since you would see them tumble with tendons severed, and strew the ground in their heavy fall. If ever they thought they had been tamed enough at home before the fight, they saw them burst into fury, when it came to conflict, maddened by the wounds, shouting, flying, panic, and confusion, nor could they rally any part of them; for all the diverse kinds of wild beasts would scatter hither and thither; even as now often the Lucanian kine cruelly mangled by the steel, scatter abroad, when they have dealt many deadly deeds to their own friends.

[1341] If indeed they ever acted thus. But scarce can I be brought to believe that, before this dire disaster befell both sides alike, they could not foresee and perceive in mind what would come to pass. And you could more readily maintain that this was done somewhere in the universe, in the diverse worlds fashioned in diverse fashion, than on any one determined earth. But indeed they wished to do it not so much in the hope of victory, as to give the foemen cause to moan, resolved to perish themselves, since they mistrusted their numbers and lacked arms.

Quote from ResponsiblyFree

I would like to discuss three themes: Friendship; Freedom/Determism; and Older Age.

Jack - It sounds like this is where we ought to branch off into detailed discussions in the Forums where these topics will be more easily found by others in the future. All of these topics probably fit under the ETHICS section probably in these subforums:

Friendship In Epicurean Philosophy

Agency / Free Will

Death and Dying (We may need to split "old age" off at some point, but at least for now there are other topics in that forum which are related.)

i suspect you will find as you look at the forum structure that we have already set up many other categories of interest to you, and it would be very helpful to the forum if you set up as many threads on different topics within them as you like.

Jack - I just finished reading through your eleven page PDF you posted above, and I do indeed find it very much in tune with the purpose of this forum and the views of most all of the group members here. I don't know if you've had much success in finding like-minded friends to talk about these issues in other places, but I think you'll find more than a few here. Look forward to hearing more from you.

Quote from ResponsiblyFree

Ah, another nice serendipitous event. I just happened to pick your Lucretius Today podcast 079 which I am just listening to now that seems to be on justice, fitting nice my Voluntaryist discussion point. Will share my thoughts after listening.

I don't know how many of the past podcast episodes you have heard, but I expect even from the earliest episodes you'll detect a perspective that is friendly to your point of view.

Hello Jack ---

I think the topics you raise are both important and not something that runs afoul of our "no politics" rule.

The last ten or so PD's are all aimed at "justice" and living arrangements, so there's no way we could avoid discussing issues like that even if we wanted to - which we don't. I suspect most of us would agree that the main problems get involved when we start endorsing or blacklisting particular politicians or parties in ways that create more heat than light, and I suspect we can all detect when something gets close to that.

Many of us I think have come through many philosophical and political phases in life, and libertarian views are or have been very popular among many of us I am sure. I am sorry I still have not had time to read much of your material in depth, but I suspect that going through it is going to be fun and stimulating to discuss.

However rather than starting at such a high-level conclusion as the non-aggression principle, I bet we would all benefit from retracing the steps by which we might reach such a conclusion, and I'd be very interested to hear from you on your background in getting to where you are now (such as issues of religion and physics and epistemology). But of course take any of it at your own pace!

Welcome to Episode Seventy-Nine of Lucretius Today. I am your host Cassius, and together with my panelists from the EpicureanFriends.com forum, we'll walk you through the six books of Lucretius' poem, and discuss how Epicurean philosophy can apply to you today. We encourage you to study Epicurus for yourself, and we suggest the best place to start is the book, "Epicurus and His Philosophy" by Canadian professor Norman DeWitt. For anyone who is not familiar with our podcast, please visit EpicureanFriends.com where you will find our goals and our ground rules. If you have any questions about those, please be sure to contact us at the forum for more information. In this Episode 79 we will read approximately Latin line 1151-1240 of Book Five. We will talk about how the worship of the gods first arose, and what misery it brought. Now let's join Don reading today's text:

Thanks to michelepinto for this information!

Thanks as always to michelepinto for this information: https://www.senigallia.co.uk/2021/07/16/ele…ulaneum/992829/

6' di lettura
15/07/2021
- The award for the best thesis about Epicuro becomes more and more international. The edition 2021 was won by a Greek student who presented a thesis in German on the Papyri of Herculaneum, kept in Naples.

Eleni Avdoulou has worked on her third book about Filodemo sulla retorica, retrieving from the fragments of the charred papyri a part of the previously unpublished text and offering new interpretations for much of the already known text. In this way, she has returned to humanity a text with important comparisons between Stoic thought and Epicurean thought.

“We were happy with the high level of all the thesis submitted” the professor Roberto Radice, who is the president of the jury, said. “Jury duty was very rewarding”.

The winning thesis will be awarded by a representative of NetoIP, during the event “Infinity, the pleasure of Epicurus, the third epicurean festival”, organized by the online newspaper Vivere Senigallia from 20 to 24 July 2021 in Recanati, Corinaldo and Senigallia. The winners, in addition to the prize of 1500 euro, will be given a Netoip phone sim.

“We are proud to participate in this initiative” explains Marco Giovannelli, president of ANSO, National Association of Online Press, “because it is a local newspaper that manages to meet and support the world of culture, business and communication”.

“This award is increasingly international, as it was a universal thought of Epicuro”, explains Michele Pinto, president of the Culture association “The world of Epicuro” and director of Vivere Senigallia.

“A thought that can speak to all people and consciences, as Epicurus himself reminds us with this sentence: Friendship travels all over the world dancing, launching to us all the appeal to awaken and say to each other: Be happy! I thank all those who sent their thesis”.

Commission chaired by Prof. Roberto Radice of the Catholic University of Milan and composed of Prof. Francesco Verde of Sapienza University of Rome, Prof. Jurgen Hammerstaedt of the University of Cologne, Prof. David Konstan of Brown University, Prof.ssa Elena Irrera of the University of Bologna, Dr. Enrico Piergiacomi of the University of Trento and Michele Pinto, president of the cultural Association the world of Epicuro, he has drawn up a ranking of the thesis deemed worthy, following the four criteria established by the notice: originality (max 30 points), scientific and methodological rigour (max 25 points), use of the bibliography (max 25 points), ability to actualize epicurean thought (max 20 points).

Eleni Avadoulu (Ein Epikureer demontiert stoisches Politikverständnis. Philodem, Uber Rethorik III (col. I-XX Sudhaus)) 100 points.

Claudio Vergara (PHerc 1670 ( Filodemo La provvidenza?) 90 points (30-25-25-15)

Solmeng-Jonas Hirschi (Epicurus’ Human Beings: beyond person and self) 85 points (30-25-25-10)

This is the motivation with which the thesis of Eleni Avdoulou was awarded: “ An Epicurean dismantles the stoic conception of the requirements of the good politician”. Philodemo, On rhetoric III (coll. I-XX Sudhaus): “Eleni Avdoulou’s doctoral thesis offers almost 125 years after the editio princeps of Siegfred Sudhaus. the re-edition and the first comment of an extensive and important passage of the third book On the Rhetoric of Polidemo together with a translation in german. The columns re-edited and commented by Avdoulou contain a controversy against the Stoic theories of Diogenes of Babylon/Seleucia.

The edition of the third book treated by Avdoulou posed an unusual range of challenges: the complicated transmission of the text in partially different versions of two scrolls of Herculaneum papyri, the difficult reading and text identification of corresponding text in the two scrolls, and above all the problem of the wide extension of syntactic structures, sometimes beyond the transmitted fragments, and the intricate task of distinguishing between words of Philodemus himself and the quotations of Diogenes.

The mere extension of text re-edited and commented is impressive. Avdoulou has contributed despite the current difficulties of access to the workshop of the Herculaneum papyri, the largest portion of the last 30 years to the re-edition of the Philodemo, offering for almost half of the lines new readings compared to the edition of Sudhaus.

It should be noted the great value of the commentary on the text which offers numerous elements for a better understanding of both the epicurean doctrine of Philodemo and his stoic adversary on the public and political role of rhetoric and also of the cultural background, as with the identification of Ciceronian footsteps remarkably similar”.

NETOIP

Netoip was founded in Ancona, in 2009 and today, in 2021 is confirmed in full activity and expansion with services dedicated to telephony, fixed and mobile, with a widespread presence in the regions of Marche, Sicily. Calabria and Tuscany, and relying on partners in Lombardy, Piedmont and Sardinia.

Any figures? The company has 42 giga of internet band dedicated owner, has reached thanks to investments and new contacts 97% coverage of the national territory, it has touched 5 thousand customers, it has 14 employees and 15 employees and it is growing strongly, thanks also to new development projects that will see a partner in the energy sector and a partner in the sports field, sector in which it is active with important sponsorships: The Ancona Cus football and Ancona Volleyball academy. To grow even more in the international market, Netoip, looks to spanish market, where it is currently active with a stake in the company Netoip Network SL, based in tenerife.

ANSO

Anso was founded in 2003 by a group of publishers pioneering online information. Today it brings together 155 newspapers and 80 publishers. It reaches 22,000,000 readers each month that display 90 million pages. Anso newspapers publish 2,900 articles every day. Today Anso is a bulwark in the defense of press freedom in Italy and Europe.

Infinity the pleasure of Epicurus, the third Epicurean festival

The event will be held in Recanati, Corinaldo and Senigallia from 20 to 24 july 2021. Five days in which writers, artists, university professors and songwriters will alternate on stage to disseminate, live to actualize the message of freedom and happiness of Epicurus.

Eleni Avdoulou will present her thesis during the Festival, in front of the italian public.

Welcome to the forum Jack! You've posted a lot of material that is going to take some time to absorb, but it certainly looks like your interests align with those of the people here, and we'll be looking to hear more from you. In the meantime, welcome aboard!

Do you mind telling us in which podcast you heard about this forum?

Hello and welcome to the forum ResponsiblyFree

This is the place for students of Epicurus to coordinate their studies and work together to promote the philosophy of Epicurus. Please remember that all posting here is subject to our Community Standards / Rules of the Forum our Not Neo-Epicurean, But Epicurean and our Posting Policy statements and associated posts.

Please understand that the leaders of this forum are well aware that many fans of Epicurus may have sincerely-held views of what Epicurus taught that are incompatible with the purposes and standards of this forum. This forum is dedicated exclusively to the study and support of people who are committed to classical Epicurean views. As a result, this forum is not for people who seek to mix and match some Epicurean views with positions that are inherently inconsistent with the core teachings of Epicurus.

All of us who are here have arrived at our respect for Epicurus after long journeys through other philosophies, and we do not demand of others what we were not able to do ourselves. Epicurean philosophy is very different from other viewpoints, and it takes time to understand how deep those differences really are. That's why we have membership levels here at the forum which allow for new participants to discuss and develop their own learning, but it's also why we have standards that will lead in some cases to arguments being limited, and even participants being removed, when the purposes of the community require it. Epicurean philosophy is not inherently democratic, or committed to unlimited free speech, or devoted to any other form of organization other than the pursuit by our community of happy living through the principles of Epicurean philosophy.

One way you can be most assured of your time here being productive is to tell us a little about yourself and personal your background in reading Epicurean texts. It would also be helpful if you could tell us how you found this forum, and any particular areas of interest that you have which would help us make sure that your questions and thoughts are addressed.

In that regard we have found over the years that there are a number of key texts and references which most all serious students of Epicurus will want to read and evaluate for themselves. Those include the following.

1. "Epicurus and His Philosophy" by Norman DeWitt
2. "A Few Days In Athens" by Frances Wright
3. The Biography of Epicurus by Diogenes Laertius. This includes the surviving letters of Epicurus, including those to Herodotus, Pythocles, and Menoeceus.
4. "On The Nature of Things" - by Lucretius (a poetic abridgement of Epicurus' "On Nature"
5. "Epicurus on Pleasure" - By Boris Nikolsky
6. The chapters on Epicurus in Gosling and Taylor's "The Greeks On Pleasure."
7. Cicero's "On Ends" - Torquatus Section
8. Cicero's "On The Nature of the Gods" - Velleius Section
9. The Inscription of Diogenes of Oinoanda - Martin Ferguson Smith translation
10. A Few Days In Athens" - Frances Wright
11. Lucian Core Texts on Epicurus: (1) Alexander the Oracle-Monger, (2) Hermotimus
12. Philodemus "On Methods of Inference" (De Lacy version, including his appendix on relationship of Epicurean canon to Aristotle and other Greeks)

It is by no means essential or required that you have read these texts before participating in the forum, but your understanding of Epicurus will be much enhanced the more of these you have read.

And time has also indicated to us that if you can find the time to read one book which will best explain classical Epicurean philosophy, as opposed to most modern "eclectic" interpretations of Epicurus, that book is Norman DeWitt's Epicurus And His Philosophy.

Welcome to the forum!