Posts by Cassius

Great questions. I'll compose a lengthier response and get back to you. To some extent this issue came up in our Zoom last Wednesday night and i am not sure we have addressed it adequately in writing here on the forum. Bryan and I touched on it in reference to a statement made about Epicurus' use of "definition," but we did not get a chance to elaborate. This will give Bryan and I and others a change to write more on this.

There's no doubt in my mind but that Epicurus did in fact divide all feelings into two -- Diogenes Laertius states that explicitly and so does Torquatus in Cicero's On Ends.

However this is also the point to which Cicero vigorously rejects, and which many people - even some here - find counter-intuitive and mysterious. So we need to be able to state the justification explicitly -- and I can tell you now that you shouldn't expect everyone here to give or accept the same answer.

I think I'll tag Don and Josh too because this is question that's going to turn into a FAQ over time - if it isn't already.

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Welcome Karim - thanks for introducing yourself!

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We have found over the years that there are a number of key texts and references which most all serious students of Epicurus will want to read and evaluate for themselves. Those include the following.

"Epicurus and His Philosophy" by Norman DeWitt

The Biography of Epicurus by Diogenes Laertius. This includes the surviving letters of Epicurus, including those to Herodotus, Pythocles, and Menoeceus.

"On The Nature of Things" - by Lucretius (a poetic abridgement of Epicurus' "On Nature"

"Epicurus on Pleasure" - By Boris Nikolsky

The chapters on Epicurus in Gosling and Taylor's "The Greeks On Pleasure."

Cicero's "On Ends" - Torquatus Section

Cicero's "On The Nature of the Gods" - Velleius Section

The Inscription of Diogenes of Oinoanda - Martin Ferguson Smith translation

A Few Days In Athens" - Frances Wright

Lucian Core Texts on Epicurus: (1) Alexander the Oracle-Monger, (2) Hermotimus

Philodemus "On Methods of Inference" (De Lacy version, including his appendix on relationship of Epicurean canon to Aristotle and other Greeks)

"The Greeks on Pleasure" -Gosling & Taylor Sections on Epicurus, especially the section on katastematic and kinetic pleasure which explains why ultimately this distinction was not of great significance to Epicurus.

It is by no means essential or required that you have read these texts before participating in the forum, but your understanding of Epicurus will be much enhanced the more of these you have read. Feel free to join in on one or more of our conversation threads under various topics found throughout the forum, where you can to ask questions or to add in any of your insights as you study the Epicurean philosophy.

And time has also indicated to us that if you can find the time to read one book which will best explain classical Epicurean philosophy, as opposed to most modern "eclectic" interpretations of Epicurus, that book is Norman DeWitt's Epicurus And His Philosophy.

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Welcome to the forum!

Another good meeting today - thanks to all who attended.

Anyone who wants to suggest a particular FAQ topic for next week, please note it here.

Dave, the Tsouna article is here:

File

Epicurean Preconceptions - Tsouna

Epicurean Preconceptions

Cassius

April 13, 2019 at 11:14 PM

That's an excellent quote and attitude and in the casual way it's intended it's probably close to perfect.

If we were to debate and discuss subtleties, however, and that's what forums are for, I'd question whether Epicurus's intent was literally "don't take death seriously," or something more like "take death very seriously and realize when you're gone you're done, but at the same time don't let it get you down."

This subject reminds me a little of the debate we sometimes have with those who are confused about why Epicurus' face in the ancient busts is so serious and with such piercing eyes, rather than laughing or smiling.

I do think that Epicurus would agree that laughing is one way to make peace with the inevitable. Would he say that it's "the best" way?

I suspect this may be one of those "Turn, Turn, Turn" situations.

I wonder if there is a way that it can be made more clear that the cup is full rather than empty? The black color alone might be hard to determine whether empty or full (?)

I prepared an updated draft of a FAQ answer on this "Meaning" question. We can discuss this both in this thread and in the Zoom Sunday:

Orientation To EpicureanFriends

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Just as a reminder we'll be doing our 12:30 PM EDT meeting again this Sunday 5/25 (in Central Europe that would be 6:30 PM CEST). For anyone whom this time is convenient, please feel free to join us.

My current thought for organizing a plan for this and future "Sunday Zoom" discussions will be to devote approximately the first twenty minutes to "What's up in your Epicurean thinking lately?" - with the remainder of the time devoted to reviewing one of our Frequently Asked Questions. We can use the discussion to update the FAQ, and that will both provide good conversation and help us help build out the FAQ for everyone's future use.

Why don't we start this week with "What Would Epicurus Say About the Search For 'Meaning' In Life?"

The full FAQ is here:

Note: We distribute the Zoom link via private conversation. If you have an account at EpicureanFriends and would like to attend, please message a moderator or ask for the link in this thread.

Quote from Robert

If I'm thirsty, and convince myself that I need to have soda, beer, or whatever, might that also be an example? After all, very often a glass of water will do just fine.

I think that here we're talking about the necessary / unnecessary / etc analysis, which yes addresses the problem that through our own mistake, or through outside conditioning, we end up thinking that we have to have X in order to be satisfied, but in truth Y would produce a better overall pleasure over pain result.

The thing I like to caution against, though, is thinking that what a person should target is "just enough to get by" as if "just enough" is the goal. The goal is choosing the "most pleasant" option, rather than the "just enough" option, and I would argue that there is a very important difference between the two. Sometimes the soda, beer, etc., is in fact the most pleasant option and worthy of being chosen.

As VS 63 is usually translated, "Frugality too has a limit, and the man who disregards it is like him who errs through excess."

Welcome to Episode 282 of Lucretius Today. This is a podcast dedicated to the poet Lucretius, who wrote "On The Nature of Things," the most complete presentation of Epicurean philosophy left to us from the ancient world.

Each week we walk you through the Epicurean texts, and we discuss how Epicurean philosophy can apply to you today. If you find the Epicurean worldview attractive, we invite you to join us in the study of Epicurus at EpicureanFriends.com, where we discuss this and all of our podcast episodes.

This week we continue our series covering Cicero's "Tusculan Disputations" from an Epicurean viewpoint. This series addresses five of the greatest questions in human life (Death, Pain, Grief/Fear, Joy/Desire, and Virtue) with Cicero speaking for the majority and Epicurus the main opponent:

Today we continue in Part 2 - "Is Pain An Evil?," picking up with Section XI, where Cicero attacks Epicurus for saying that pain is the greatest evil.

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Our general discussion guide for Tusculun Disputations is here: https://epicureanfriends.github.io/tusculundisput…lish/section:12

And a side-by-side version with comments is here:

EpicureanFriends SideBySide Commentary on TD

Rolf

PD01. The blessed and incorruptible nature knows no trouble itself, nor causes trouble to any other, so that it is never constrained by anger or favor. For all such things exist only in the weak. ^[1]

PD02. Death is nothing to us, for that which is dissolved is without sensation; and that which lacks sensation is nothing to us.

Exhibit A to my last post. If anyone wants to comment on it I'll crosspost this to physics, but the number of similar articles is innumerable and this is of note only because it's new. These guys have been organized for 2000+ years and the drumbeat never stops - so neither can our organizing an immunization.

There's also another important - but a little less pleasant to discuss - side of things. Not everyone in this world is, or wants to be, or is going to be your friend. Nor are you going to succeed in making them so, no matter how you might try to do so. Epicurean philosophy teaches you to be aware that many contentious issues such as supernatural gods and life after death are not just neutral, take-it-or-leave-it, or compromisable issues.

One analogy I think I can make without offending anyone is as to cigarette manufacturers, who apparently at this point in history are acknowledged to have made their products more addictive even while knowing that they were deadly. Without harping on one example, I think there are plenty of instances where we have to recognize that not everyone is supportive of everyone else's best interests (to say the least). Epicurean philosophy teaches you to immunize yourself against many impositions by giving you a basic orientation toward the universe that helps defeat those negative forces in life.

That's a huge point, and arguably in the ancient Epicurean calculus of higher priority even than identifying happiness as your goal. The major doctrines all fit together logically, hand in glove, but the first and second most important doctrines on the list are telling you to first and foremost watch out for those who would manipulate you with bad motives.

That's an attitude toward the world that needs to be constantly a part of how we live our daily lives, and I consider it along with the swerve free will / personal responsibility) to be one of the most distinctly Epicurean characteristics.

I should have added that early in my study I printed out some pictures, worked on some 3d busts, etc. I never graduated to ring or pendants but those are good too, ieth the basic idea that its a good think to have occasional reminders in your surroundings that the philosophy is more than just an idea but that real people - lots of them - engaged in it too in the past, and you can be a part of that self-chosen group no matter how distant. I like thinking that I am part of the solution rather than part of the problem.

I don't think of myself as having particular structure, but in my case I am pretty much constantly working with this website and reading and studying the texts and thinking of new ways to present it and talking to people about it. I suspect that the normal days of Lucretius or Diogenes of Oinoanda or Philodemus would have been pretty similar. The word "ritual" evokes a lot of both positive and negative connotations given the way we think of rituals working in the standard supernatural religions, and I tend to avoid those personally.

The most on-point advise that I recall is:

VS41. We must laugh and philosophize at the same time, and do our household duties, and employ our other faculties, and never cease proclaiming the sayings of the true philosophy.

To me, this kind of approach means that everything you do is folded into the master plan of living happily according to Epicurus' worldview, but on the other hand almost nothing you do is hard-wired to a particular absolute "ritual," because that's not the way life is - you're always adjusting to circumstances to produce the best result. You're either living by Epicurean ideas consciously and intentionally moment by moment, or during those deviations you're not really living by Epicurean ideas at all, no matter what "ritual" you might be engaged in.

Quote from Julia

You see: Even if SoE reject whatever we suggest, that's still dialogue and they might have a counter proposal. Other than "this feels like a waste of time" (which is fine to feel that way) I don't see what we have to lose

While I would be shocked if there were wide consensus among existing Epicurean aficianoados, I still think the exercise is very useful. I almost see it as a "Rorschach test" of what individuals see as the most important aspects of Epicurean philosophy. It's amazing how people look differently even at the general subject of talking about how symbolism should work. Should the symbol be related to something that is "unique" about Epicurus, or is it ok for it to be about something that he's often associated with (atomism) but not at all as the trailblazer (that would have to go to Democritus or one of the eariler atomists.)

So I have no real hope of any consensus arising in the near future, but at the same time I think the exercise is great food for thought for everyone.

Quote from Julia

I'm willing to try – it's not like we need to invest our life savings or anything – and just see where we end up

As Don would say BY ZEUS that's the kind of attitude we need here on lots of things!

Episode 281 of the Lucretius Today Podcast is now available. Today we begin Part Two of Cicero's Tusculan Disputations with an episode entitled: "Is Pain The Greatest Evil - Or An Evil At All?"