Posts by Cassius

Episode 82 of the Lucretius Today Podcast is now available. In today's episode we begin Book Six of the poem, and as always we find that the openings of each book contain some of the most important material about the significance of Epicurus and the meaning of Epicurean Philosophy. Please feel free to leave comments or suggestions in the thread below, and subscribe to us in your podcast application so you never miss any new episodes.

Not that it makes any difference at all but I always find words interesting. What does the "felder" indicate? Something indicating "field-worker" in the distant past, or something like that? So a long-ago reference to "field-worker from Hessen?"

What does Felder mean in German?

English words for Felder include field, panel, array, area, pitch, court, pane and open country. Find more German words at wordhippo.com!

www.wordhippo.com

Welcome Kalosyni !

This is the place for students of Epicurus to coordinate their studies and work together to promote the philosophy of Epicurus. Please remember that all posting here is subject to our Community Standards / Rules of the Forum our Not Neo-Epicurean, But Epicurean and our Posting Policy statements and associated posts.

Please understand that the leaders of this forum are well aware that many fans of Epicurus may have sincerely-held views of what Epicurus taught that are incompatible with the purposes and standards of this forum. This forum is dedicated exclusively to the study and support of people who are committed to classical Epicurean views. As a result, this forum is not for people who seek to mix and match some Epicurean views with positions that are inherently inconsistent with the core teachings of Epicurus.

All of us who are here have arrived at our respect for Epicurus after long journeys through other philosophies, and we do not demand of others what we were not able to do ourselves. Epicurean philosophy is very different from other viewpoints, and it takes time to understand how deep those differences really are. That's why we have membership levels here at the forum which allow for new participants to discuss and develop their own learning, but it's also why we have standards that will lead in some cases to arguments being limited, and even participants being removed, when the purposes of the community require it. Epicurean philosophy is not inherently democratic, or committed to unlimited free speech, or devoted to any other form of organization other than the pursuit by our community of happy living through the principles of Epicurean philosophy.

One way you can be most assured of your time here being productive is to tell us a little about yourself and personal your background in reading Epicurean texts. It would also be helpful if you could tell us how you found this forum, and any particular areas of interest that you have which would help us make sure that your questions and thoughts are addressed.

In that regard we have found over the years that there are a number of key texts and references which most all serious students of Epicurus will want to read and evaluate for themselves. Those include the following.

1. "Epicurus and His Philosophy" by Norman DeWitt
2. "A Few Days In Athens" by Frances Wright
3. The Biography of Epicurus by Diogenes Laertius. This includes the surviving letters of Epicurus, including those to Herodotus, Pythocles, and Menoeceus.
4. "On The Nature of Things" - by Lucretius (a poetic abridgement of Epicurus' "On Nature"
5. "Epicurus on Pleasure" - By Boris Nikolsky
6. The chapters on Epicurus in Gosling and Taylor's "The Greeks On Pleasure."
7. Cicero's "On Ends" - Torquatus Section
8. Cicero's "On The Nature of the Gods" - Velleius Section
9. The Inscription of Diogenes of Oinoanda - Martin Ferguson Smith translation
10. A Few Days In Athens" - Frances Wright
11. Lucian Core Texts on Epicurus: (1) Alexander the Oracle-Monger, (2) Hermotimus
12. Philodemus "On Methods of Inference" (De Lacy version, including his appendix on relationship of Epicurean canon to Aristotle and other Greeks)

It is by no means essential or required that you have read these texts before participating in the forum, but your understanding of Epicurus will be much enhanced the more of these you have read.

And time has also indicated to us that if you can find the time to read one book which will best explain classical Epicurean philosophy, as opposed to most modern "eclectic" interpretations of Epicurus, that book is Norman DeWitt's Epicurus And His Philosophy.

Welcome to the forum!

I am in the process of editing this episode and I just caught something that I wish I had expanded on. We were joking about speed limits and how there have not traditionally been speed limits on the autobahn in Germany, but I failed to ask Martin:

It's my understanding that even though there may be no formal limits, a driver who causes an accident because he is driving excessively fast, and therefore cannot keep his car under control, still does "get a ticket.' My generic understanding of the theory would be that the ticket is for driving "too fast for conditions" --- and that is something that makes a lot of sense to me.

It seems very logical (and therefore very German) for the Germans to observe that if you are out in the middle of nowhere on a straight-away with no cars around, there really is no reason for you not to drive much faster than normal, and that it is therefore "conditions" that should determine whether a driver is judged to be going to fast, and not an artificially-designated speed limit.

If that's the theory I think that frame of analysis is something that Epicurus would identify with (not saying he would come to exactly the same condition) but that in general Epicurus was always in favor of judging "right and wrong" based on local conditions and not on a priori abstract reasoning.

I wish I had asked about this in the podcast. Martin do you have any comment on this?

The following note was posted today to the thread for this video on the facebook page. I thought it was particularly good and wanted to record it and my response:

Poster PB:

Every time I deal with criticism of Epicurean philosophy it's always by people who misrepresent Epicurus' position saying things such as "I know he wasn't a glutton but pleasure is unlimited and modern studies have shown people simply don't limit their desires."

It's almost as if they don't understand his core position on pleasure, it has a natural limit, or the whole point of philosophy which is to train ourselves methodically, if we weren't already prudent, to live the good life. Epicurus was all about limits and boundaries, we bind ourselves to nature in order to relieve unnecessary suffering about the unknown.

Eclectics will never be secure and at peace. They've chosen and avoided according to their own constitution like the crowd does at a buffet with no method other than their own immediate gratification. And they have the nerve to call Epicurus a pig.

Cassius:

"We bind ourselves to nature in order to relieve unnecessary suffering about the unknown" I think that's a particularly good turn of phrase there. It's not to religion that we bind ourselves but to Nature, and we ultimately follow nature where nature leads, not to where *we* think through "virtue" that we "ought" to go.

The Stoics talk a good line about nature, but then (as Nietzsche accuses them) they turn around and dictate to Nature what they think Nature should do. Epicurus consistently follows nature all the way through and does not presume to overrule Nature's leadership.

If that is original composed for the occasion that shows quite a talent!

And from there, he returned again to us - a conqueror - to relate those things that can be, and those that can not, and to tell us on what principle each thing has its powers defined, its boundary-mark set deep. (Lucretius Book 1, Line 62)

Here are several significant observations from this passage:

1. Lucretius is observing that Epicurus figuratively traveled across space with his mind and then returned to us. Maybe this is entirely poetic fancy, and certainly it isn't meant to be taken literally, but the allusion to traveling to observe something up close may be more than just a poetic device. Diogenes Laertius, for example, explained Epicurus' concept of "Waiting" to get evidence sufficient to make a decision by analogizing the process to walking toward a tower to see it if indeed is still as round up close as it appears to be from a distance.
2. Lucretius calls Epicurus a "conqueror" or describes him as returning "in victory" or "triumphant." That sounds like a description of an active process of grasping hold of something that was not formerly within one's grasp - which sounds to me like something Lucretius wanted to describe as a process of action, rather than pure contemplation for the sake of contemplation.
3. "Those things that can be and what cannot" - That sounds like it is at least a reference to Epicurus' views of free will, in which some things are possible to us and others are not, and it's probably also a reference to the physical universe in which in Epicurus' view it is not possible that the universe as a whole had a beginning, or had an end, or that the universe could be reigned over by supernatural forces.
4. "On what principle each thing has its powers defined." - Would this not likely at least in part be a reference to how the elementary particles are what give rise to the qualities of the bodies that we see in our level of experience, and how the qualities of those bodes are defined and limited in what they can and cannot do by the way their elemental particles are combined?
5. "It's boundary-mark set deep." One concept that comes to mind here would probably be "finis / end / limit" and its probably very significant that of all the things that Lucretius chose to praise about Epicurus' accomplishments, it was his work on the elemental particles and how they provide the limits and boundaries of human life that he focused on the most.

Alternate translations;

Bailey: "whence in victory he brings us tidings what can come to be and what cannot, yea and in what way each thing has its power limited, and its deepset boundary-stone.

Munro: "whence he returns a conqueror to tell us what can, what cannot come into being; in short on what principle each thing has its powers defined, its deep-set boundary mark".

Brown: "from thence returned, triumphant; told us what things may have a being, and what cannot; and how a finite power is fixed to each; a bound it cannot break."

Thank you!

Alex I just want to be sure to let you know how much I (and I am sure the others as well) appreciate your taking the time to make those kind comments. For long stretches I wasn't sure if we had any listeners at all, so to see you and several others post positive comments lately has been most gratifying.

The podcast started out almost as an experiment as much as anything else, because I knew we needed to gain some expertise in formatting and technology to produce a decent podcast.

Over the next couple of months we're closing in on the end of Lucretius, but as far as I am concerned this is just the start of our podcasting efforts. We'll get the existing series transferred over to youtube to expand the audience, and one day we'll move into something by video as well.

Comments like yours certainly help keep us motivated.

Thank you Martin! Unless that last name is extremely common, the parallel would seem unlikely to be total coincidence - maybe he was an uncle or something.

If he identified "imperturbability" as the "common goal" then that might explain why Sabina might not have taken much interest in the details of Epicurus (of course that comment is pure speculation).

For many years I hopped back and forth between many podcatchers, but in the last couple of years I've finally seen the telephone more as a tool than a toy, and I've settled down. Antennapod seems to do everything I need just fine.

Quote from JJElbert

So it works just fine, but possibly there are better options?

Is that apple or Android.

On Android I have gone to the open source and free AntennaPod - which works fine

Joshua thanks for the comments - So you have been able to search for and find the Lucretius Today podcast at Castbox without any issues?

I spent some time today looking at our entries in the google podcast and (after I finally found it (the apple directory) and the entries look decent but could definitely be improved.

One thing I see is that the Episode listings should not start with my personal intro or the podcast - it is sufficient for them to start with what the episode is about. I will have to go back and correct that at the Spreaker.com home base, and hope that flows back into the Apple and Google listings eventually.

I also would prefer - if possible - to add in the line numbers as we have been doing in the last several episodes recently

We certainly want to do that, at the very least, before trying to move them over into Youtube.

Let's use this thread to discuss any suggestions anyone has about how to improve the listings on the various locations where the podcast appears.

This is a thread to use as a pointer for updates on Michele Pinto's convention activities.

This is a thread for links to the annual Athens Seminar. I need to add here the upcoming dates as they occur. If I remember correctly this usually occurs around February of each year, in proximity to Epicurus' birthday.

Oh I like the word "finitors" - I'd like to see some ancient usage of that one!

Quote from Don

I just get antsy seeing the word "soul" bandied about.

You materialists have such low tolerance for poetry!

Yep I agree - "soul" just automatically conveys "immortal soul" to us today, so that's another chain of thought that has to get rewired.

Thus the living force of his soul won the day. On he passed, far beyond the flaming walls of the world, traversing the immeasurable universe through mind and spirit. (Lucretius Book 1, Line 62)

This passage makes a couple of points worth considering, starting with these:

1. "The living force of his soul" - Not his "reason" or his "logic," though those were no doubt part of the picture.
2. "Won the day" - Can be considered as a conqueror; definitely not a waste of time or ultimately futile.
3. "Far beyond the flaming walls of the world" - Presumably means his survey reached beyond "our world" (which the Epicureans considered to be our system of earth and visible stars, while thinking that that there are innumerable other similar systems beyond ours). The "flaming walls" is an interesting reference too.
4. "The immeasurable universe" - Regardless of what modern physics may or may not say about that, concluding that the universe as a whole is without end played an important role in Epicurus' thinking -- thus there are no supernatural gods "outside" or "beyond" it, because there can be no "outside" or "beyond" due to the conclusion that the universe is without end.
5. "Through mind and spirit" - Anyone who thinks that Epicureans were only concerned with filling their "bellies" ought to take stock of this comment.

OMG that would be VERY interesting. We'll have to see if we can track that down as I would be interested to know his perspective on Epicurus too ( tagging Martin to be sure he sees this)