Posts by Cassius

I just set up Episode 104. I included only two "paragraphs" because once again (and maybe even more) they appear to me almost like outlines or bullet points - rapid fire listings of main points of the philosophy. So probably no need to bite off more than two at most.

In fact I wrote this as a private message to the podcast team but I think it's better to post it publicly. These paragraphs of Torquatus, starting with 55 and probably going all the way to the end of what we're covering, at 72, might be the greatest and most clear summary of Epicurean philosophy available anywhere.

It almost cries out to be separated into bullet points as an outline of its own as a "map" of the entire philosophy.

I picked up the word "Corollaries" because I see that used as the word that is translated from the text, but I am not sure that word conveys the right meaning. "Corollaries" to me implies some kind of subsidiary status. Maybe in fact all of these are subsidiary to "pleasure is the goal and virtue isn't" in this letter, but I think it's more accurate to separate these out and consider the importance of each of them, especially since they touch on physics and epistemology with which people often don't concern themselves today.

Another analogy comes to mind: I used to have more than a few friends (I still have a few) who are really into fundamentalist Christianity. One analogy I observed them making is that they liked to talk about the "Romans Road to Salvation." (I picked the first link that came up on google so not sure how good it is.)

The analogy of course is obvious: This section of Cicero's "On Ends" is almost like a "Torquatus Road To Understanding Epicurus."

And since the commentators seem to agree that Cicero was largely quoting from one of more Epicurean handbooks as he was writing this, it's altogether possible that this presentation didn't originate in Cicero's mind but was an approved Epicurean community text laying out an outline of the points the Epicureans of that age felt it most important to be understood. And if that is indeed the case, this is a summary that predates Diogenes Laertius by as much as a hundred years or more.

Welcome to Episode One Hundred Four of Lucretius Today.

This is a podcast dedicated to the poet Lucretius, who wrote "On The Nature of Things," the only complete presentation of Epicurean philosophy left to us from the ancient world.

I am your host Cassius, and together with our panelists from the EpicureanFriends.com forum, we'll walk you through the six books of Lucretius' poem, and we'll discuss how Epicurean philosophy can apply to you today. We encourage you to study Epicurus for yourself, and we suggest the best place to start is the book "Epicurus and His Philosophy" by Canadian professor Norman DeWitt.

If you find the Epicurean worldview attractive, we invite you to join us in the study of Epicurus at EpicureanFriends.com, where you will find a discussion thread for each of our podcast episodes and many other topics.

At this point in our podcast we have completed our first line-by-line review of the poem, and we have turned to the presentation of Epicurean ethics found in Cicero's On Ends. Today we continue examine a number of important corollaries of Epicurean doctrine.

Now let's join (Charles or Joshua) reading today's text:

[62] XIX. But these doctrines may be stated in a certain manner so as not merely to disarm our criticism, but actually to secure our sanction. For this is the way in which Epicurus represents the wise man as continually happy; he keeps his passions within bounds; about death he is indifferent; he holds true views concerning the eternal gods apart from all dread; he has no hesitation in crossing the boundary of life, if that be the better course. Furnished with these advantages he is continually in a state of pleasure, and there is in truth no moment at which he does not experience more pleasures than pains. For he remembers the past with thankfulness, and the present is so much his own that he is aware of its importance and its agreeableness, nor is he in dependence on the future, but awaits it while enjoying the present; he is also very far removed from those defects of character which I quoted a little time ago, and when he compares the fool’s life with his own, he feels great pleasure. And pains, if any befall him, have never power enough to prevent the wise man from finding more reasons for joy than for vexation.

[63] It was indeed excellently said by Epicurus that fortune only in a small degree crosses the wise man’s path, and that his greatest and most important undertakings are executed in accordance with his own design and his own principles, and that no greater pleasure can be reaped from a life which is without end in time, than is reaped from this which we know to have its allotted end. He judged that the logic of your school possesses no efficacy either for the amelioration of life or for the facilitation of debate. He laid the greatest stress on natural science. That branch of knowledge enables us to realize clearly the force of words and the natural conditions of speech and the theory of consistent and contradictory expressions; and when we have learned the constitution of the universe we are relieved of superstition, are emancipated from the dread of death, are not agitated through ignorance of phenomena, from which ignorance, more than any thing else, terrible panics often arise; finally, our characters will also be improved when we have learned what it is that nature craves. Then again if we grasp a firm knowledge of phenomena, and uphold that canon, which almost fell from heaven into human ken, that test to which we are to bring all our judgments concerning things, we shall never succumb to any man’s eloquence and abandon our opinions.

Good dramatization. It is so hard to determine what was really going one. One uniform observation though is that regardless of how we assess any of the others, Mark Antony always seems to come out looking like a jerk

For some reason the name "SmmothieKiwi" sounds like you live in Australia or New Zealand. Either way, I see you are in time sync with Don, for whom I have identified from about 5AM to 630AM as "the Don hour" for his most frequent posting. You can set your clock by it.

I think some people infer that mixing all caps with normal case selection is a sign of insanity. Who knows maybe I am an example of that! But I know myself pretty well -- laziness is my middle name, though I tend to embellish it as a form of "hedonic calculus."

Quote from Don

I can take a hint

Ha -- no hint intended. You're not being too harsh and i agree with your criticism of DeWitt in that department. Perhaps not all the way to "absurdity" but even for me I think DeWitt's tendency went overboard. But that maybe because I am so committed at this point in life against making too many compromises with Christianity (or Stoicism).

This episode (Cicero showing good practical judgment; Cato being a stubborn Stoic) would probably afford a very interesting validation that Cicero himself was not primarily a Stoic, and that his criticisms of the Stoics as adding nothing to such insights as the "academics" were very valid.

I can imagine this illustration being very useful in the right circumstances (on those many and varied situations where takedowns of Stoicism are fun and appropriate!)

Excellent - thank you - Plutarch is where I will go!

And this is interesting, that the settlement was suggested by Cicero. So Cicero did seem to have good judgment on things other than his view of Epicurus:

[3] But Lentulus, who was by this time consul, would not call the senate together; Cicero, however, who was just returned from Cilicia, tried to effect a settlement of the dispute on these terms, namely, that Caesar should renounce Gaul and dismiss the rest of his forces, but should retain two legions and Illyricum, and wait for his second consulship.

Quote from smoothiekiwi

Still, I think that Christianity didn‘t really destroy Epicureanism… well, it did, but it also took some of the things out of this great philosophy and incorporated it into its own world view. The community of friends…

I can hear Don thinking "this guy is the reincarnation of Norman deWitt!" Kind of an inside joke but can't resist making it. Smoothkiwi as you read DeWitt's books (specifically including "St Paul and Epicurus" you will see he is fond - perhaps too fond of drawing analogies to Christianity. I think many of them are valid, but some of them you'll probably agree are stretched. In general though his points are probably good points of connection for Christian readers.

Don I think you're talking about THIS thread; Interpretations of PD 10 Discussion for the prior "bliss pill" discussion.

Best thing would be to start with a link to where we discussed it before if you can find that, and second just to state a summary of why you think this is incorrect (and we can eventually find a link to past discussion).

What I recall is that where we went down the rabbit hole in the past, and may well again, is the issue of this being a HYPOTHETICAL and that for a hypothetical the presumptions are accepted as true.

(And since you commented on the all-caps i will apologize to new users and explain that I am so incredibly lazy that I find it easier often to use all caps for emphasis rather than underlining or italics and that I do not mean to imply "shouting' )

Welcome @davidsixx !

This is the place for students of Epicurus to coordinate their studies and work together to promote the philosophy of Epicurus. Please remember that all posting here is subject to our Community Standards / Rules of the Forum our Not Neo-Epicurean, But Epicurean and our Posting Policy statements and associated posts.

Please understand that the leaders of this forum are well aware that many fans of Epicurus may have sincerely-held views of what Epicurus taught that are incompatible with the purposes and standards of this forum. This forum is dedicated exclusively to the study and support of people who are committed to classical Epicurean views. As a result, this forum is not for people who seek to mix and match some Epicurean views with positions that are inherently inconsistent with the core teachings of Epicurus.

All of us who are here have arrived at our respect for Epicurus after long journeys through other philosophies, and we do not demand of others what we were not able to do ourselves. Epicurean philosophy is very different from other viewpoints, and it takes time to understand how deep those differences really are. That's why we have membership levels here at the forum which allow for new participants to discuss and develop their own learning, but it's also why we have standards that will lead in some cases to arguments being limited, and even participants being removed, when the purposes of the community require it. Epicurean philosophy is not inherently democratic, or committed to unlimited free speech, or devoted to any other form of organization other than the pursuit by our community of happy living through the principles of Epicurean philosophy.

One way you can be most assured of your time here being productive is to tell us a little about yourself and personal your background in reading Epicurean texts. It would also be helpful if you could tell us how you found this forum, and any particular areas of interest that you have which would help us make sure that your questions and thoughts are addressed.

In that regard we have found over the years that there are a number of key texts and references which most all serious students of Epicurus will want to read and evaluate for themselves. Those include the following.

1. "Epicurus and His Philosophy" by Norman DeWitt
2. The Biography of Epicurus by Diogenes Laertius. This includes the surviving letters of Epicurus, including those to Herodotus, Pythocles, and Menoeceus.
3. "On The Nature of Things" - by Lucretius (a poetic abridgement of Epicurus' "On Nature"
4. "Epicurus on Pleasure" - By Boris Nikolsky
5. The chapters on Epicurus in Gosling and Taylor's "The Greeks On Pleasure."
6. Cicero's "On Ends" - Torquatus Section
7. Cicero's "On The Nature of the Gods" - Velleius Section
8. The Inscription of Diogenes of Oinoanda - Martin Ferguson Smith translation
9. A Few Days In Athens" - Frances Wright
10. Lucian Core Texts on Epicurus: (1) Alexander the Oracle-Monger, (2) Hermotimus
11. Philodemus "On Methods of Inference" (De Lacy version, including his appendix on relationship of Epicurean canon to Aristotle and other Greeks)
12. "The Greeks on Pleasure" -Gosling & Taylor Sections on Epicurus, especially the section on katastematic and kinetic pleasure which explains why ultimately this distinction was not of great significance to Epicurus.

It is by no means essential or required that you have read these texts before participating in the forum, but your understanding of Epicurus will be much enhanced the more of these you have read.

And time has also indicated to us that if you can find the time to read one book which will best explain classical Epicurean philosophy, as opposed to most modern "eclectic" interpretations of Epicurus, that book is Norman DeWitt's Epicurus And His Philosophy.

Welcome to the forum!

Oh my gosh excellent post, and i am showing my alzheimers again to say that I do cannot recall ever reading this detail about what you state as the offer from Caesar.

Do you know where in the historical sources this is documented? I would like to go back and read the original history of that to try to fix it in my mind.

Don and Joshua (who come to mind as really into some of the historical details) do you recall this detail and how well it is documented and your impression of the likelihood of its truth?

Part of the reason I ask is that i think you are exactly right Smoothiekiwi -- Cassius Longinus and probably even Brutus WOULD have accepted such an offer, I would think -- certainly Cassius as an explicit Epicurean in later life would have.

Well after reading the rest I don't see to much reason to revise my prior opinion or add to it too much. As I see it she largely continues in the same vein, deserving some praise and some caution.

For example, I think I know the section in Lucretius that supports this, but I would not say that this is really true of the big picture of the philosophy: "According to Epicurus, cold, hunger and illness are the main causes of human misery, but we are liable to other forms of suffering and deprivation."

Same here: These are largely true as well, but doesn't the writing seem at least just a little "overbroad"?

"Keep your worldly ambitions modest, he advised. Unrequited love, he recognised, is terrible to endure, as are the torments of jealousy, so keep away from anyone threatening to make you miserable before you are in over your head.
Here's another example where I bet Martin would agree with me:

"The Epicureans thought this was wicked nonsense, and their later followers, especially Thomas Hobbes, Jeremy Bentham, John Stuart Mill and Karl Marx, agreed." Yes each of these had certain good things to say about Epicurus (or at least I think they did). But is it really a good idea to call them "later followers" of Epicurus - especially Karl Marx? If you're trying to write a generalist article encouraging interest in Epicurus, do you really want to do that? Maybe in the New Statesman, I suppose (not really familiar with exactly where that is on the political spectrum, but it's somewhere on the left so maybe that explains her choice.)

Also, I think we've previously here on the forum confronted the bliss drug issue, possibly in discussing prior Wilson references to it, and come to the same criticism that I would restate here: She's not describing this exactly right:

Quote

An important objection to regarding pleasure as the sole human good, and pain as the only true evil, is that few of us would choose to take a “bliss drug” that kept us in a permanent and passive state of delight, unaware of our hurts. Most would rather experience hardships, ups and downs, and the pains of off-and-on deprivation that keep our appetites sharp. The Epicurean can agree entirely. A bliss drug would not be a source of real pleasure because it would wipe out experience. Blissed out, we would not be encountering the world as it is, but a distorted world in which the causes of physical and psychological pleasure as well as pain were obscured.

And the problem here is again that Wilson seems to like to talk in terms of "real pleasure" which I think is a major error in terminology. Again, pleasure is pleasure and pain is pain, and the feeling is very difficult to the point of impossible to "mistake" -- the issue is that some pleasures are not to be chosen because they lead to great pain later, and vice versa. IF IN FACT A BLISS DRUG WORKED THEN AN EPICUREAN WOULD CHOOSE IT! In fact that's largely what Epicurean philosophy is, and why we use the "Tetraphmarmakon" analogy -- Epicurean philosophy is medicine for the soul and for the human life and helps us live more happily and less painfully.

It's difficult to understand why Wilson does not seem to want to embrace this point, and make it clearly, except that her articles are generally weighted with politics and she seems to want to appeal to a particular political viewpoint more than anything else. I see this as a significant hazard in being too consumed with politics and that's part of our "no-politics" rule here, though not our primary reason for it.

Looks like this may be it: Epicurus' Birthday Calculations

(So you don't have to click through ----)

From Gassendi's Life of Epicurus Check this transcription against the PDF here.

Chap 2. The Time of His Birth

Epicurus was born (as ^[29] Laertius relates out of the Chronology of Apollodorus) in the 3rd year of the 109th Olympiad, the 7th day of the month Gamelion; at whose birth, ^[30] Pliny saith, the Moon was twenty daies old. Hecatombeon (the first month) this year falling in the Summer of the year 4372. of the Julian Period, (now used by Chronologers) it is manifest, that Gamelion the same year, being the 7th month from Hecatombeon, fell upon the beginning of the year 4373, which was before the ordinary computation from Christ 341 compleat years. Now forasmuch as in January, in which month the beginning of Gamelion is observ’d to have fallen, there happened a new Moon in the Attick Horizon, by the Tables of Celestiall Motions, the fourth day, in the morning, (or the third day, according to the Athenians, who as ^[31]Censorinus saith, reckon their day from Sun-set to Sun-set) and therefore the twentieth day of the Moon is co-incident with the three and twentieth of January; it will follow, that Epicurus was born on the 23rd of January, if we suppose the same form of the year extended from the time of Cefar, upwards. And this in the old style, according to which the cycle of the Sun, or of the Dominical letters for that year, (it being Biffextile) was BA, whence the 23rd day of January must have been Sunday. But if we suit it with the Gregorian account, which is ten daies earlier, (now in use with us we shall find, that Epicurus was born on the 2nd of February, which was Sunday, (for the Dominicall Letters must have been ED.) in the year before Christ, or the Christian computation, 341. and consequently in the 1974th year, compleat, before the beginning of February this year, which is from Christ 1634. Some things here must not be passed by.

First, that ^[32] Laertius observes Sosigenes to have been Archon the same year, wherein Epicurs was born, and that it was the 7th year from the death of Plato. Moreover, it was the 16th of Alexander, for it was, as the same ^[33] Laertius affirms, the year immediately following that, in which Aristotle was sent for to come to him, then 15 years old.

Secondly, that ^[34] Eusebius can hardly be excused from a mistake, making Epicurus to flourish in the 112th Olympiad; for at that time, Epicurus scarce had pass’d his childhood, and Aristotle began but to flourish in the Lyceum, being returned the foregoing Olympiad out of Macedonia, as appears from ^[35] Laertius.

Thirdly, that the error which is crept into ^[36] Suidas, and hath deceived his Interpreter, is not to be allowed, who reports Epicurus born in the 79th Olympiad. I need not take notice, how much this is inconsistent, not onely with other relations, but even with that which followeth in Suidas, where he extends his life to Antigonus Gonotas: I shall onely observe, that, for the number of Olympiads, Suidas having doubtlesse set down ςθ, which denote the 109th Olympiad, the end of the ς was easily defaced in the Manuscript, so as there remained onely ο, by which means of οθ, was made the 79th Olympiad.

Fourthly, that it matters not that the Chronicon Alexandrinum, Georgius Sincellus, and others, speak too largely of the time wherein Epicurus flourished, and that we heed not the errous of some person, otherwise very learned, who make Aristippus later then Epicurus, and something of the like kind. Let us onely observe what ^[37] St. Hierom cites out of Cicero pro Gallio; a Poet is there mentioned, making Epicurus and Socrates discoursing together, Whose times, saith Cicero, we know were disjoyned, not by years, but ages.

Fifthly, that the birth-day of Epicurus, taken from Laertius and Pliny, seems to argue, that amongst the Athenians of old, the Civill months and the Lunary had different beginnings. This indeed will seem strange, unlesse we should imagine it may be collected, that the month Gamelion began onely from the full Moon that went before it; for, if we account the 14th day of the Moon to be the first of the month, the first of the Moon will fall upon the 7th of the month. Not to mention, that Epicurus seems in his Will to appoint his birth to be celebrated on the first Decad of the dayes of the month Gamelion, because he was born in one of them; and then ordaineth something more particular concerning the 20th of the Moon, for that it was his birth-day, as we shall relate hereafter. Unlesse you think it fit to follow the ^[38] anonymous Writer, who affirms, Epicurus was born on the 20th day of Gamelion; but I know not whether his authority should out-weigh Laertius. Certainly, many errours, and those very great, have been observed in him, particularly by Meurfius. I shall not take notice, that the XXXX of Gamelion might perhaps be understood of the 20th of the Moon, happening within the month Gamelion, from Cicero, whose words we shall cite hereafter. But this by the way.

THANK YOU for the reminder. The floating nature of the birthday over what seems to be an unnaturally-extended period always makes this hard to remember. I think we have a post or a thread about this calculation and we need to highlight it every year as the date approaches. If someone finds it before I do please post in this thread and we'll add to the front page notices.

Quote from smoothiekiwi

Stoicism shows a clear path, without other branches: virtue is the only good, so your goal is to focus on virtue. That’s it. You like photography and think that you are extraordinarily talented? It doesn’t really matter, because your goal is virtue. It’s better if you go into politics, because that’s where you can be the most virtuous.

I'm beginning to see why I generally like your posts and thought processes -- i think you've tagged Stoicism exactly right. For some reason it's hard for a lot of people to understand this. I tend to think it's because they can't imagine that Stoicism really asserts this, and the modern stoics do try to downplay it. But i think you're exactly right, and once this is called out most of this "Epicurus and the Stoics are so similar!" attitude evaporates.

I agree but would add a minor general comment on terminology. You're put "moderation" in quotes and I think that is very warranted. The big picture is that people's body chemistry can be different, and even different at different periods of like. Someone who has overeaten sugar for years is likely going to have developed diabetes and their body will tolerate less and less sugar over time.

The point about "moderation" is that it's kind of like several other words that can be used too loosely. The point is not really to consider two extremes and divide them in half, but to use all the facts of a situation to analyze and choose "the right amount" that fits the situation. Sometimes that point is a "midpoint" between two extremes, but sometimes the situation calls for more or less or for a point that would not be some abstract "middle" but "correct under all the circumstances.

It's just a minor point but i believe greeks like Aristotle are associated with the impression that there is some kind of "golden mean" that exists in the abstract that everyone should follow. I think Epicurus stands for a different position - that there is not a one-size-fits-all "moderation" that should be the goal, but "the right amount under all the circumstances leading to the best pleasure/pain result."

I know this sounds nit-picky to some people but i think there's a point here worth making to zero in on Epicurus' exact position.

i think your point here is correct. Some people will look at situations and prejudge them "how could someone not want to go visit their grandma?" and jump to the application of a one-size-fits-all rule and say "He should!"

We don't need to get into the specifics of your situation or any other of the situations you mention as to what you should tolerate and what you should not. You may or may not be making the decision that others would make on any of those situations. But you're right to be looking at YOUR situation and adding up all the implications of YOUR situation, without thinking that there's a universal rule that answers the question for her. That's all that anyone can do. We should work to look at the universe and the way things are with the most clear possible analysis, but in the end we cannot hold ourselves to standards of omniscience and we have to make our choices on the best information, and using the best analysis, that we have access to.

And you are right here too - Epicurean philosophy is often thought to be "egoistic" - and it is from a certain perspective, but the difference between Epicurus and Ayn Rand style egoism is that Epicurus stresses clarity of result -- We should not do anything just because we decide it is our will to do it, we should keep the focus on why we do anything - pleasure - and measure the whole situation according to how much pleasure and pain will result to us. There are MANY situations in life were "doing what we want to do" is not going to produce the best pleasure/pain result for us.

Thanks Don I missed the break but too late for more tonight. I will wrap up tomorrow