Posts by Cassius

Jack at this time we have no provisions for live audio interaction. Our podcast is strictly going through the Lucretius poem for now, and we have not done interviews. We've been talking about launching other podcasts but we have no immediate plans as we've been working on finishing Lucretius.

As to posting in the forum for written discussions, yes I think you understand what I was suggesting. Posting written exchanges that others can find and read over time is the main benefit of the forum structure.

I think many of us here are also interested in expanded live interaction, but we haven't had an immediate stimulus to get started. Maybe your appearance here will prove to be that stimulus, but i suspect that others like me will need time to download and review what you've posted already.

I do agree with you that recorded live discussions are very very useful, so let's see if others here have comments or suggestions, and we'll continue discussing how to proceed with this.

Welcome to Episode Eighty of Lucretius Today.

I am your host Cassius, and together with my panelists from the EpicureanFriends.com forum, we'll walk you through the six books of Lucretius' poem, and discuss how Epicurean philosophy can apply to you today. We encourage you to study Epicurus for yourself, and we suggest the best place to start is the book, "Epicurus and His Philosophy" by Canadian professor Norman DeWitt.

For anyone who is not familiar with our podcast, please visit EpicureanFriends.com where you will find our goals and our ground rules. If you have any questions about those, please be sure to contact us at the forum for more information.

In this Episode 80 we will read approximately Latin lines 1226-1341 of Book Five. We will talk in this episode about the development of the art of war.

Now let's join Don reading today's text.

(Martin was scheduled but due to technical difficulties Don stepped in.)

Munro Notes- 1226 - 1341

1226-1240: Nay who does not dread the thunder, lest it be a presage of divine vengeance 1 think too of generals and armies whelmed in the sea; of all men's glories dashed down to the dust by some hidden power: no wonder that men abase themselves before the gods.

1241-1280: the metals were discovered through the burning of woods which baked the earth and caused the ore to run ; with these they made arms and tools: copper at first was rated more highly than useless gold and silver; now it is the contrary; thus things in turn flourish and decay.

1281-1307: for arms men used at first hands nails teeth clubs, then fire, then copper or brass, at last iron; horses next, then chariots, then elephants were employed in war, strife begetting one horror after another.

1308-1349: bulls boars and lions too were tried in war; but they often turned upon their owners, as elephants are sometimes seen to do now: probably they were employed by the weaker side only in despair.

Browne 1743

[1226] And when the raging force of a violent storm upon the sea tosses the admiral of a fleet over the waves, with all his elephants and his stout legions about him, does not he fall to praying to the gods for pity? And, trembling upon his knees, begs a peace of the winds, and a prosperous gale? In vain! For he is often snatched up by the violence of the hurricane, and carried with all his devotion to the Stygian ferry. With such contempt does some hidden power continually trample upon human greatness, it treads with scorn upon the gaudy rods and the cruel axes, those ensigns of empire, and makes a sport with them.

[1236] And then, when the whole Earth reels under our feet, and the cities are shaken, and tumble about us, or at least threaten to fall, what wonder if men at such a time despise their own weak selves, and ascribe infinite power and irresistible force to the gods, by which they direct and govern the world?

[1241] And last of all brass, and gold, and iron were discovered, and the value of silver, and the weight of lead. For when the whole forests upon the high hills were consumed by fire, whether it came by lightning from the heavens or men carried on a war among themselves in the woods, and set them in a blaze to terrify their enemies; or whether, induced by the goodness of the soil, they resolved to enlarge their fruitful fields and make pastures for their cattle; or whether it was to destroy the wild beasts and enrich themselves with their spoils (for the first way of taking the game was by pitfalls, and fire before they surrounded the brakes with nets, or hunted with dogs); however it was, or whatever was the cause of this raging fire, that burnt up the woods to the very roots with frightful noise, and set the Earth a boiling with its heat - Then streams of silver and gold, of brass and lead, flowed out of the burning veins into hollow places of the Earth that were proper for them. And when the metal grew hard, and men observed it looking beautifully and shining bright upon the ground, they were charmed with its gay and sparkling luster, and dug it up. And finding that it received the exact shape of the hollow molds in which it lay, they concluded, when it was melted by the heat, it would run into any form and figure they pleased, and they might draw it into a sharp point or a fine edge, and make themselves tools to cut down the woods, to smooth, to square, and to plane timber, to pierce, to hollow, and to bore. These instruments they attempted to make of silver and gold, no less, than by powerful blows to form the stronger brass; but in vain! For the soft quality of those metals gave way, and could not bear the force and violence of the stroke; and so brass was in most value, and gold was neglected, as a blunt useless metal that would not hold an edge. But now brass is in no esteem, and gold succeeds to all its honors. And thus a course of flowing time changes the dignity of things. What was highly prized is now treated with contempt, and what was despised comes into its place, and is every day more eagerly pursued, is cried up with the greatest applause, and receives the respect and admiration of mankind.

[1281] And now, my Memmius, you may easily, of yourself, perceive by what means the force of iron was discovered. The first weapons were hands, and nails, and teeth, and stones, and the broken boughs of trees; and then they learned to fight with fire and flame, and afterwards was the strength of iron and brass found out. But the use of brass was known before the benefit of iron was understood, for it was a metal more easy to work, and in greater plenty. With brazen shares they ploughed the ground, with arms of brass they carried on the rage of war, and dealt deep wounds about, and seized upon their neighbors cattle and their fields, for everything naked and unarmed was easily forced to give way. But the iron sword came gradually into use, and instruments of brass were laid aside with contempt. And now they began to plough with iron, and with weapons of iron to engage in the doubtful events of war.

[1297] And men first learned to mount the horse, with their left hand to manage the reins, and they fought with their right, before they tried the dangers of war in a chariot drawn by two. They first used a chariot with a pair, and then they harnessed four, before they knew how to engage in chariots armed with scythes. The Carthaginians taught the Libyan elephants, with their serpentine proboscis and towers upon their backs, to bear the smart of wounds, and to disorder the embattled ranks of the enemy. And thus the rage of discord found out one art of slaughter after another, as the dreadful scourges of mankind, and increased the terrors of war every day.

[1308] They tried the fury of bulls in their battles, and drove boars against their cruel enemies. The Parthians placed roaring lions before their ranks, with their armed keepers, and fierce leaders, to govern their rage and hold them in chains. In vain! For growing hot with the mixed blood they had tasted, they broke in their fury through the troops of friends and enemies without distinction, shaking their dreadful manes on every side. Nor could the horsemen cool their frightened horses, distracted with the roaring of the beasts, or turn them with reins against the foe. The lions with rage sprung out, and threw their bodies every way, and flew upon the faces that they met. Others they suddenly fell on behind, and clasped with their paws, and with sore wounds overcome, they flung them to the ground, and held them down with their strong teeth and with their crooked claws. The bulls would toss the boars and crush them with their feet, and with their horns would gore the sides and bellies of the horses, and in their rage bear them to the earth. The bears with their strong teeth destroyed their friends (and cruelly stained the darts unbroken, with their master’s blood, the darts that broke upon themselves were stained with their own) and brought confused ruin upon man and horse; for though the horse, by leaping aside, would strive to fly the cruel biting of their teeth, or, rearing up, pawed with their feet the yielding air; yet all in vain! You would see them, hamstrung by the beasts, fall down and with their heavy weight would shake the ground. These creatures therefore that men saw were tame at home, now brought into the war grew mad with wounds, with noise, with flying, with terror, and the tumult of the battle; nor could they by any means be brought back or cooled again, but every kind flew wildly over the plains; as when a bull, not rightly struck by the priest’s sacrificing axe, breaks loose, after much mischief done to all about him.

[1341] These were the first arts of war; yet I cannot believe but the first inventors must consider and foresee the common evils and sad calamities they must occasion. This, it is safer to say, was the case in general in some of all the worlds that were created in various manners, than to be particular and fix it upon one only. But they made use of beasts in their wars not so much from a hope of victory as to annoy and torment their enemies; being themselves sure to die because they distrusted their numbers and were unskilled in the use of arms.

Munro 1886

[1226] When too the utmost fury of the headstrong wind passes over the sea and sweeps over its waters the commander of a fleet together with his mighty legions and elephants, does he not draw near with vows to seek the mercy of the gods and ask in prayer with fear and trembling a lull in the winds and propitious gales; but all in vain, since often caught up in the furious hurricane he is borne nonetheless to the shoals of death? So constantly does some hidden power trample on human grandeur and is seen to tread under its heel and make sport for itself of the renowned rods and cruel axes.

[1236] Again, when the whole earth rocks under their feet and towns tumble with the shock or doubtfully threaten to fall, what wonder that mortal men abase themselves and make over to the gods in things hereon earth high prerogatives and marvelous powers, sufficient to govern all things?

[1241] To proceed, copper and gold and iron were discovered and at the same time weighty silver and the substance of lead, when fire with its heat had burnt up vast forests on the great hills, either by a discharge of heaven’s lightning, or else because men waging with one another a forest-war had carried fire among the enemy in order to strike terror, or because drawn on by the goodness of the soil they would wish to clear rich fields and bring the country into pasture, or else to destroy wild beasts and enrich themselves with the booty; for hunting with the pitfall and with fire came into use before the practice of enclosing the lawn with toils and stirring it with dogs. Whatever the fact is, from whatever cause the heat of flame had swallowed up the forests with a frightful crackling from their very roots and had thoroughly baked the earth with fire, there would run from the boiling veins and collect into the hollows of the ground a stream of silver and gold, as well as of copper and lead. And when they saw these afterwards cool into lumps and glitter on the earth with a brilliant gleam, they would lift them up attracted by the bright and polished luster, and they would see them to be molded in a shape the same as the outline of the cavities in which each lay. Then it would strike them that these might be melted by heat and cast in any form or shape soever, and might by hammering out be brought to tapering points of any degree of sharpness and fineness, so as to furnish them with tools and enable them to cut the forests and hew timber and plane smooth the planks, and also to drill and pierce and bore. And they would set about these works just as much with silver and gold at first as with the overpowering strength of stout copper, but in vain, since their force would fail and give way and not be able like copper to stand the severe strain. At that time copper was in higher esteem and gold would lie neglected on account of its uselessness, with its dull blunted edge: now copper lies neglected, gold has mounted up to the highest place of honor. Thus time as it goes round changes the seasons of things. That which was in esteem falls at length into utter disrepute; and then another thing mounts up and issues out of its degraded state and every day is more and more coveted and blossoms forth high in honor when discovered and is in marvelous repute with men.

[1281] And now, Memmius, it is easy for you to find out by yourself in what way the nature of iron was discovered. Arms of old were hands nails and teeth and stones and boughs broken off from the forests, and flame and fire, as soon as they had become known. Afterwards the force of iron and copper was discovered; and the use of copper was known before that of iron, as its nature is easier to work and it is found in greater quantity. With copper they would labor the soil of the earth, with copper stir up the billows of war and deal about wide-gaping wounds and seize cattle and lands; for every thing defenseless and unarmed would readily yield to them with arms in hand. Then by slow steps the sword of iron gained ground and the make of the copper sickle became a byword; and with iron they began to plow through the earth’s soil, and the struggles of wavering war were rendered equal.

[1297] And the custom of mounting in arms on the back of a horse and guiding him with reins and showing prowess with the right hand is older than that of tempting the risks of war in a two-horsed chariot; and yoking a pair of horses is older than yoking four or mounting in arms scythed chariots. Next the Poeni taught the lucan kine with towered body, hideous of aspect, with snake-like hand, to endure the wounds of war and to disorder the mighty ranks of Mars. Thus sad discord begat one thing after another, to affright nations of men under arms, and every day made some addition to the terrors of war.

[1308]They made trial of bulls too in the service of war and essayed to send savage boars against the enemy. And some sent before them valorous lions with armed trainers and courageous keepers to guide them and to hold them in chains; but in vain, since heated with promiscuous slaughter they would disorder in their rage the troops without distinction, shaking all about the frightful crests upon their heads; and the horsemen were not able to calm the breasts of the horses scared by the roaring and turn them with the bridle upon the enemy. The lionesses with a spring would throw their enraged bodies on all sides and would attack in the face those who met them, and others off their guard they would tear down from behind and twining round them would bring them to the ground overpowered by the wound, fastening on them with firm bite and with hooked claws. The bulls would toss their own friends and trample them under foot, and gore with their horns the flanks and bellies of the horses underneath and turn up the earth with threatening front. The boars too would rend their friends with powerful tusks, in their rage dying with their blood the weapons broken in them, ay dying with their blood the weapons broken in their own bodies; and would put to promiscuous rout horse and foot; for the tame beasts would try to avoid by shying to the side the cruel push of the tusk, or would rear up and paw the winds, all in vain, since you might see them tumble down with their tendons severed and straw the in their heavy fall. Those whom they believed before to have been sufficiently broken in at home, they would see lash themselves into fury in the heat of action from wounds and shouting, flight panic and uproar; and they could not rally any portion of them; for all the different kinds of wild beasts would fly all abroad; just as now the lucan kine when cruelly mangled by the steel fly often all abroad, after inflicting on their friends many cruel sufferings.

[1341] But men chose thus to act not so much in any hope of victory, as from a wish to give the enemy something to rue at the cost of their own lives, when they mistrusted their numbers and were in want of arms.

Bailey 1921

[1226] Or again, when the fiercest force of furious wind at sea sweeps the commander of a fleet over the waters with his strong legions and his elephants, all in like case, does he not seek with vows the peace of the gods, and fearfully crave in prayer a calm from wind and favouring breezes; all in vain, since often when caught in the headstrong hurricane he is borne for all his prayers to the shallow waters of death? So greatly does some secret force grind beneath its heel the greatness of men, and it is seen to tread down and make sport for itself of the glorious rods and relentless axes.

[1236] Again, when the whole earth rocks beneath men’s feet, and cities are shaken to their fall or threaten doubtful of their doom, what wonder if the races of mortal men despise themselves and leave room in the world for the mighty power and marvellous strength of the gods, to guide all things?

[1241] For the rest, copper and gold and iron were discovered, and with them the weight of silver and the usefulness of lead, when a fire had burnt down vast forests with its heat on mighty mountains, either when heaven’s lightning was hurled upon it, or because waging a forest-war with one another men had carried fire among the foe to rouse panic, or else because allured by the richness of the land they desired to clear the fat fields, and make the countryside into pasture, or else to put the wild beasts to death, and enrich themselves with prey. For hunting with pit and fire arose first before fencing the grove with nets and scaring the beasts with dogs. However that may be, for whatever cause the flaming heat had eaten up the forests from their deep roots with terrible crackling, and had baked the earth with fire, the streams of silver and gold, and likewise of copper and lead, gathered together and trickled from the boiling veins into hollow places in the ground. And when they saw them afterwards hardened and shining on the ground with brilliant hue, they picked them up, charmed by their smooth bright beauty, and saw that they were shaped with outline like that of the several prints of the hollows. Then it came home to them that these metals might be melted by heat, and would run into the form and figure of anything, and indeed might be hammered out and shaped into points and tips, however sharp and fine, so that they might fashion weapons for themselves, and be able to cut down forests and hew timber and plane beams smooth, yea, and to bore and punch and drill holes. And, first of all, they set forth to do this no less with silver and gold than with the resistless strength of stout copper; all in vain, since their power was vanquished and yielded, nor could they like the others endure the cruel strain. For copper was of more value, and gold was despised for its uselessness, so soon blunted with its dull edge. Now copper is despised, gold has risen to the height of honour. So rolling time changes the seasons of things. What was of value, becomes in turn of no worth; and then another thing rises up and leaves its place of scorn, and is sought more and more each day, and when found blossoms into fame, and is of wondrous honour among men.

[1281] Now, in what manner the nature of iron was found, it is easy for you to learn of yourself, Memmius. Their arms of old were hands, nails, and teeth, and stones, and likewise branches torn from the forests, and flame and fires, when once they were known. Thereafter the strength of iron and bronze was discovered. And the use of bronze was learnt before that of iron, inasmuch as its nature is more tractable, and it is found in greater stores. With bronze they would work the soil of the earth, and with bronze mingle in billowy warfare, and deal wasting wounds and seize upon flocks and fields. For all things naked and unarmed would readily give in to them equipped with arms. Then, little by little, the iron sword made its way, and the form of the bronze sickle was made a thing of scorn, and with iron they began to plough up the soil of earth; and the contests of war, now hovering in doubt, were made equal.

[1297] It was their way to climb armed on to the flanks of a horse, to guide it with reins, and do doughty deeds with the right hand, before they learnt to essay the dangers of war in a two-horsed chariot. And the yoking of two horses came before yoking four, and climbing up armed into chariots set with scythes. Then it was the Poeni who taught the Lucanian kine, with towered body, grim beasts with snaky hands, to bear the wounds of warfare, and work havoc among the hosts of Mars. So did gloomy discord beget one thing after another, to bring panic into the races of men in warfare, and day by day gave increase to the terrors of war.

[1308] They tried bulls, too, in the service of war, and essayed to send savage boars against the foe. And some sent on before them mighty lions with armed trainers and cruel masters, who might be able to control them, and hold them in chains; all in vain, since in the heat of the mellay of slaughter they grew savage, and made havoc of the hosts, both sides alike, tossing everywhere the fearful manes upon their heads, nor could the horsemen soothe the hearts of their horses, alarmed at the roaring, and turn them with their bridles against the foe. The lionesses launched their furious bodies in a leap on every side, and made for the faces of those that came against them, or tore them down in the rear when off their guard, and twining round them hurled them to the ground foredone with the wound, fastening on them with their strong bite and crooked claws. The bulls tossed their own friends and trampled them with their feet, and with their horns gashed the flanks and bellies of the horses underneath, and ploughed up the ground with threatening purpose. And the boars gored their masters with their strong tusks, savagely splashing with their own blood the weapons broken in them, and threw to the ground horsemen and footmen in one heap. For the horses would swerve aside to avoid the fierce onset of a tusk, or rear and beat the air with their feet; all in vain, since you would see them tumble with tendons severed, and strew the ground in their heavy fall. If ever they thought they had been tamed enough at home before the fight, they saw them burst into fury, when it came to conflict, maddened by the wounds, shouting, flying, panic, and confusion, nor could they rally any part of them; for all the diverse kinds of wild beasts would scatter hither and thither; even as now often the Lucanian kine cruelly mangled by the steel, scatter abroad, when they have dealt many deadly deeds to their own friends.

[1341] If indeed they ever acted thus. But scarce can I be brought to believe that, before this dire disaster befell both sides alike, they could not foresee and perceive in mind what would come to pass. And you could more readily maintain that this was done somewhere in the universe, in the diverse worlds fashioned in diverse fashion, than on any one determined earth. But indeed they wished to do it not so much in the hope of victory, as to give the foemen cause to moan, resolved to perish themselves, since they mistrusted their numbers and lacked arms.

Quote from ResponsiblyFree

I would like to discuss three themes: Friendship; Freedom/Determism; and Older Age.

Jack - It sounds like this is where we ought to branch off into detailed discussions in the Forums where these topics will be more easily found by others in the future. All of these topics probably fit under the ETHICS section probably in these subforums:

Friendship In Epicurean Philosophy

Agency / Free Will

Death and Dying (We may need to split "old age" off at some point, but at least for now there are other topics in that forum which are related.)

i suspect you will find as you look at the forum structure that we have already set up many other categories of interest to you, and it would be very helpful to the forum if you set up as many threads on different topics within them as you like.

Jack - I just finished reading through your eleven page PDF you posted above, and I do indeed find it very much in tune with the purpose of this forum and the views of most all of the group members here. I don't know if you've had much success in finding like-minded friends to talk about these issues in other places, but I think you'll find more than a few here. Look forward to hearing more from you.

Quote from ResponsiblyFree

Ah, another nice serendipitous event. I just happened to pick your Lucretius Today podcast 079 which I am just listening to now that seems to be on justice, fitting nice my Voluntaryist discussion point. Will share my thoughts after listening.

I don't know how many of the past podcast episodes you have heard, but I expect even from the earliest episodes you'll detect a perspective that is friendly to your point of view.

Hello Jack ---

I think the topics you raise are both important and not something that runs afoul of our "no politics" rule.

The last ten or so PD's are all aimed at "justice" and living arrangements, so there's no way we could avoid discussing issues like that even if we wanted to - which we don't. I suspect most of us would agree that the main problems get involved when we start endorsing or blacklisting particular politicians or parties in ways that create more heat than light, and I suspect we can all detect when something gets close to that.

Many of us I think have come through many philosophical and political phases in life, and libertarian views are or have been very popular among many of us I am sure. I am sorry I still have not had time to read much of your material in depth, but I suspect that going through it is going to be fun and stimulating to discuss.

However rather than starting at such a high-level conclusion as the non-aggression principle, I bet we would all benefit from retracing the steps by which we might reach such a conclusion, and I'd be very interested to hear from you on your background in getting to where you are now (such as issues of religion and physics and epistemology). But of course take any of it at your own pace!

Welcome to Episode Seventy-Nine of Lucretius Today. I am your host Cassius, and together with my panelists from the EpicureanFriends.com forum, we'll walk you through the six books of Lucretius' poem, and discuss how Epicurean philosophy can apply to you today. We encourage you to study Epicurus for yourself, and we suggest the best place to start is the book, "Epicurus and His Philosophy" by Canadian professor Norman DeWitt. For anyone who is not familiar with our podcast, please visit EpicureanFriends.com where you will find our goals and our ground rules. If you have any questions about those, please be sure to contact us at the forum for more information. In this Episode 79 we will read approximately Latin line 1151-1240 of Book Five. We will talk about how the worship of the gods first arose, and what misery it brought. Now let's join Don reading today's text:

Thanks to michelepinto for this information!

Thanks as always to michelepinto for this information: https://www.senigallia.co.uk/2021/07/16/ele…ulaneum/992829/

6' di lettura
15/07/2021
- The award for the best thesis about Epicuro becomes more and more international. The edition 2021 was won by a Greek student who presented a thesis in German on the Papyri of Herculaneum, kept in Naples.

Eleni Avdoulou has worked on her third book about Filodemo sulla retorica, retrieving from the fragments of the charred papyri a part of the previously unpublished text and offering new interpretations for much of the already known text. In this way, she has returned to humanity a text with important comparisons between Stoic thought and Epicurean thought.

“We were happy with the high level of all the thesis submitted” the professor Roberto Radice, who is the president of the jury, said. “Jury duty was very rewarding”.

The winning thesis will be awarded by a representative of NetoIP, during the event “Infinity, the pleasure of Epicurus, the third epicurean festival”, organized by the online newspaper Vivere Senigallia from 20 to 24 July 2021 in Recanati, Corinaldo and Senigallia. The winners, in addition to the prize of 1500 euro, will be given a Netoip phone sim.

“We are proud to participate in this initiative” explains Marco Giovannelli, president of ANSO, National Association of Online Press, “because it is a local newspaper that manages to meet and support the world of culture, business and communication”.

“This award is increasingly international, as it was a universal thought of Epicuro”, explains Michele Pinto, president of the Culture association “The world of Epicuro” and director of Vivere Senigallia.

“A thought that can speak to all people and consciences, as Epicurus himself reminds us with this sentence: Friendship travels all over the world dancing, launching to us all the appeal to awaken and say to each other: Be happy! I thank all those who sent their thesis”.

Commission chaired by Prof. Roberto Radice of the Catholic University of Milan and composed of Prof. Francesco Verde of Sapienza University of Rome, Prof. Jurgen Hammerstaedt of the University of Cologne, Prof. David Konstan of Brown University, Prof.ssa Elena Irrera of the University of Bologna, Dr. Enrico Piergiacomi of the University of Trento and Michele Pinto, president of the cultural Association the world of Epicuro, he has drawn up a ranking of the thesis deemed worthy, following the four criteria established by the notice: originality (max 30 points), scientific and methodological rigour (max 25 points), use of the bibliography (max 25 points), ability to actualize epicurean thought (max 20 points).

Eleni Avadoulu (Ein Epikureer demontiert stoisches Politikverständnis. Philodem, Uber Rethorik III (col. I-XX Sudhaus)) 100 points.

Claudio Vergara (PHerc 1670 ( Filodemo La provvidenza?) 90 points (30-25-25-15)

Solmeng-Jonas Hirschi (Epicurus’ Human Beings: beyond person and self) 85 points (30-25-25-10)

This is the motivation with which the thesis of Eleni Avdoulou was awarded: “ An Epicurean dismantles the stoic conception of the requirements of the good politician”. Philodemo, On rhetoric III (coll. I-XX Sudhaus): “Eleni Avdoulou’s doctoral thesis offers almost 125 years after the editio princeps of Siegfred Sudhaus. the re-edition and the first comment of an extensive and important passage of the third book On the Rhetoric of Polidemo together with a translation in german. The columns re-edited and commented by Avdoulou contain a controversy against the Stoic theories of Diogenes of Babylon/Seleucia.

The edition of the third book treated by Avdoulou posed an unusual range of challenges: the complicated transmission of the text in partially different versions of two scrolls of Herculaneum papyri, the difficult reading and text identification of corresponding text in the two scrolls, and above all the problem of the wide extension of syntactic structures, sometimes beyond the transmitted fragments, and the intricate task of distinguishing between words of Philodemus himself and the quotations of Diogenes.

The mere extension of text re-edited and commented is impressive. Avdoulou has contributed despite the current difficulties of access to the workshop of the Herculaneum papyri, the largest portion of the last 30 years to the re-edition of the Philodemo, offering for almost half of the lines new readings compared to the edition of Sudhaus.

It should be noted the great value of the commentary on the text which offers numerous elements for a better understanding of both the epicurean doctrine of Philodemo and his stoic adversary on the public and political role of rhetoric and also of the cultural background, as with the identification of Ciceronian footsteps remarkably similar”.

NETOIP

Netoip was founded in Ancona, in 2009 and today, in 2021 is confirmed in full activity and expansion with services dedicated to telephony, fixed and mobile, with a widespread presence in the regions of Marche, Sicily. Calabria and Tuscany, and relying on partners in Lombardy, Piedmont and Sardinia.

Any figures? The company has 42 giga of internet band dedicated owner, has reached thanks to investments and new contacts 97% coverage of the national territory, it has touched 5 thousand customers, it has 14 employees and 15 employees and it is growing strongly, thanks also to new development projects that will see a partner in the energy sector and a partner in the sports field, sector in which it is active with important sponsorships: The Ancona Cus football and Ancona Volleyball academy. To grow even more in the international market, Netoip, looks to spanish market, where it is currently active with a stake in the company Netoip Network SL, based in tenerife.

ANSO

Anso was founded in 2003 by a group of publishers pioneering online information. Today it brings together 155 newspapers and 80 publishers. It reaches 22,000,000 readers each month that display 90 million pages. Anso newspapers publish 2,900 articles every day. Today Anso is a bulwark in the defense of press freedom in Italy and Europe.

Infinity the pleasure of Epicurus, the third Epicurean festival

The event will be held in Recanati, Corinaldo and Senigallia from 20 to 24 july 2021. Five days in which writers, artists, university professors and songwriters will alternate on stage to disseminate, live to actualize the message of freedom and happiness of Epicurus.

Eleni Avdoulou will present her thesis during the Festival, in front of the italian public.

Welcome to the forum Jack! You've posted a lot of material that is going to take some time to absorb, but it certainly looks like your interests align with those of the people here, and we'll be looking to hear more from you. In the meantime, welcome aboard!

Do you mind telling us in which podcast you heard about this forum?

Hello and welcome to the forum ResponsiblyFree

This is the place for students of Epicurus to coordinate their studies and work together to promote the philosophy of Epicurus. Please remember that all posting here is subject to our Community Standards / Rules of the Forum our Not Neo-Epicurean, But Epicurean and our Posting Policy statements and associated posts.

Please understand that the leaders of this forum are well aware that many fans of Epicurus may have sincerely-held views of what Epicurus taught that are incompatible with the purposes and standards of this forum. This forum is dedicated exclusively to the study and support of people who are committed to classical Epicurean views. As a result, this forum is not for people who seek to mix and match some Epicurean views with positions that are inherently inconsistent with the core teachings of Epicurus.

All of us who are here have arrived at our respect for Epicurus after long journeys through other philosophies, and we do not demand of others what we were not able to do ourselves. Epicurean philosophy is very different from other viewpoints, and it takes time to understand how deep those differences really are. That's why we have membership levels here at the forum which allow for new participants to discuss and develop their own learning, but it's also why we have standards that will lead in some cases to arguments being limited, and even participants being removed, when the purposes of the community require it. Epicurean philosophy is not inherently democratic, or committed to unlimited free speech, or devoted to any other form of organization other than the pursuit by our community of happy living through the principles of Epicurean philosophy.

One way you can be most assured of your time here being productive is to tell us a little about yourself and personal your background in reading Epicurean texts. It would also be helpful if you could tell us how you found this forum, and any particular areas of interest that you have which would help us make sure that your questions and thoughts are addressed.

In that regard we have found over the years that there are a number of key texts and references which most all serious students of Epicurus will want to read and evaluate for themselves. Those include the following.

1. "Epicurus and His Philosophy" by Norman DeWitt
2. "A Few Days In Athens" by Frances Wright
3. The Biography of Epicurus by Diogenes Laertius. This includes the surviving letters of Epicurus, including those to Herodotus, Pythocles, and Menoeceus.
4. "On The Nature of Things" - by Lucretius (a poetic abridgement of Epicurus' "On Nature"
5. "Epicurus on Pleasure" - By Boris Nikolsky
6. The chapters on Epicurus in Gosling and Taylor's "The Greeks On Pleasure."
7. Cicero's "On Ends" - Torquatus Section
8. Cicero's "On The Nature of the Gods" - Velleius Section
9. The Inscription of Diogenes of Oinoanda - Martin Ferguson Smith translation
10. A Few Days In Athens" - Frances Wright
11. Lucian Core Texts on Epicurus: (1) Alexander the Oracle-Monger, (2) Hermotimus
12. Philodemus "On Methods of Inference" (De Lacy version, including his appendix on relationship of Epicurean canon to Aristotle and other Greeks)

It is by no means essential or required that you have read these texts before participating in the forum, but your understanding of Epicurus will be much enhanced the more of these you have read.

And time has also indicated to us that if you can find the time to read one book which will best explain classical Epicurean philosophy, as opposed to most modern "eclectic" interpretations of Epicurus, that book is Norman DeWitt's Epicurus And His Philosophy.

Welcome to the forum!

Quote from Don

They don't/can't exist as physical entities

Quote from Don

That can't exist in the physical world.

I think that Epicurus would qualify both of those statements by adding the words ...HERE IN THIS WORLD to the end of them.

That seems to me to be the reasoning involved in placing them in the "intermundia" where either (1) the environment is by nature fully supportive and not harmful to them or (2) the gods by some technology or system are able to control their environment with the same result.

Maybe that might appear to some of us as a rationalization merging into pure idealism, but I also think that Epicurus thought his physics of the infinite/eternal universe populated with many forms of life, and the theory of isonomia described in Cicero's "On the nature of the gods," impel the same conclusion in reality.

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“These discoveries of Epicurus are so acute in themselves and so subtly expressed that not everyone would be capable of appreciating them. Still I may rely on your intelligence, and make my exposition briefer than the subject demands. Epicurus then, as he not merely discerns abstruse and recondite things with his mind's eye, but handles them as tangible realities, teaches that the substance and nature of the gods is such that, in the first place, it is perceived not by the senses but by the mind, and not materially or individually, like the solid objects which Epicurus in virtue of their substantiality entitles steremnia; but by our perceiving images owing to their similarity and succession, because an endless train of precisely similar images arises from the innumerable atoms and streams towards the gods, our mind with the keenest feelings of pleasure fixes its gaze on these images, and so attains an understanding of the nature of a being both blessed and eternal.

Moreover there is the supremely potent principle of infinity, which claims the closest and most careful study; we must understand that it has in the sum of things everything has its exact match and counterpart. This property is termed by Epicurus isonomia, or the principle of uniform distribution. From this principle it follows that if the whole number of mortals be so many, there must exist no less a number of immortals, and if the causes of destruction are beyond count, the causes of conservation also are bound to be infinite.

I might be comfortable with "theoretical limit" in place if "abstract ideal.". Of those two words "ideal" seems to me to be ok - it is the "abstract" that tends to imply that the thing being discussed is set apart from reality and impossible by definition to obtain.

What makes absence of pain so difficult is more a practical difficulty of obtaining and maintaining that status. But some of us surely come closer than others, and the possibility that under some conditions all obstacles might be overcome seems to be one of the conceptual or preconceptual attributes of what we would identify as godlike.

Maybe this would be a variation of the cliche about not letting the "perfect" get in the way of the "good.". Just because we know at the start that we are unlikely to succeed in sustaining continual pure pleasure with no mixture of pain does not mean that we should not set that mentally as our view of the goal.

Further on the implications of the word "virtue" is not the Latin form grounded in the implications of "strength"? Since we have to deal with modern associations, maybe "strength" has less victorian implication even then excellences, and more clearly conveys the issue that it is necessary to answer the question "strength toward what purpose?"

Well that raises a good question Godfrey - as to whether Franklin considered this "list of virtues" to be goals in themselves, or whether he realized that they were instrumental. You're definitely right that any list has to be clearly denominated as instrumental only and always subject to change. With that in mind maybe it shouldn't be a list of "virtues" at all, but a list of precepts as joshua is saying that we remind ourselves to apply every day.

I do think that it would probably be a very useful exercise to rewrite Franklin's list in Epicurean terms, then prepare a chart to serve as a weekly reminder checklist. The methodology probably appeals to a certain type of person who likes outlines and checklists, and the comparison of the content of the two would be enlightening in itself.

That is very helpful! I switched the search to Epicurus and find very little. No doubt we are going to find a blend, with a tendency toward stoicism perhaps like Aurelius, but I don't yet have a feel for the mix because Franklin seems practical above all and that would seemingly out the brakes on "virtue" in and for itself.

Yes definitely. I have not read enough of Franklin to know whether he had anything much to say about Stoicism or Epicurus, but there's definitely a stoic tinge to some - but not all - of the material. I do think the way he organizes it is an interesting thought for those who are into organizing their self-improvement, and I tend to think that many people who come looking for that approach would also appreciate a structured presentation of it.

Episode 78 of the Lucretius Today Podcast is now available. In this Episode 78 our goal was to read approximately Latin lines 1105 - 1240 of Book Five, but due to the important ethical implications of the subject we covered only a small part of that. So today our discussion will break well short of the material that we read, and we will come back next week to tackle the rest. Now let's join Martin reading today's text:

Welcome to Episode Seventy-Nine of Lucretius Today.

I am your host Cassius, and together with my panelists from the EpicureanFriends.com forum, we'll walk you through the six books of Lucretius' poem, and discuss how Epicurean philosophy can apply to you today. We encourage you to study Epicurus for yourself, and we suggest the best place to start is the book, "Epicurus and His Philosophy" by Canadian professor Norman DeWitt.

For anyone who is not familiar with our podcast, please visit EpicureanFriends.com where you will find our goals and our ground rules. If you have any questions about those, please be sure to contact us at the forum for more information.

In this Episode 79 we will read approximately Latin line 1151-1240 of Book Five. We will talk about how the worship of the gods first arose, and what misery it brought.

Now let's join Don reading today's text:

Latin Lines 1151 - 1240

Munro Notes-

1136-1160: thus kings were overthrown, and anarchy followed ; till nations weary of violence established laws and constitutions : then fear of punishment restrained men, as injustice generally recoils on the wrongdoer, and if he escape punishment, he cannot escape the terrors of conscience.

1161-1193: men believed in and worshipped gods, because they saw with their waking minds and still more in sleep shapes of preterhuman size and beauty and strength: as these shapes were ever present and as their might appeared.so great, they deemed them to be immortal; and to be blessed, because they could do such deeds and had no fear of death : they saw too the seasons change, and all the wonders of the heaven ; they therefore placed their gods in heaven and believed all things to be governed by their providence.

1194-1220: what misery men brought on themselves by assigning to the gods such powers and passions! the ceremonies of superstition shew not genuine piety which consists rather in despising such things: true when we look up to heaven and think of its beginning and end, this fear of the gods is apt to seize on us

Browne 1743

[1151] And therefore men were tired of this hostile way, which soured all their pleasures of life with the fears of punishment; for force and wrong entangle the man that uses them, and commonly recoil upon the head that contrived them. Nor is it easy for that man to live a secure and pleasant life who by his conduct breaks through the common bonds of peace. Though he has the cunning to deceive both gods and men, his heart always trembles for fear of being discovered; for men often talk in their sleep, and are said to reveal things when they are delirious by a disease, and to bring to light their plots that had been long concealed.

[1161] And now I’ll show the cause that first dispersed the notions of the gods throughout the world, and filled the towns with altars, and ordered solemn rites to be performed, and holy ceremonies now in use, when victims smoked on every sacred fire; and whence that fixed horror in the minds of men, that builds new temples to the gods in every corner of the earth, and compels men to celebrate their festivals: 'tis not so hard a thing to show the cause.

[1169] For men, in the beginning of the world, were used to see divine and glorious forms, even when awake; and in their sleep those images appeared in more majestic state, and raise their wonder. And these they thought had sense. They fancied that they moved their limbs and spoke proud words, suitable to the grand appearance they showed, and to the mightiness of their strength. They ascribed eternity to them, because a constant stream of images incessantly came on, in form the same (that could not change) and then, they could not die, because no power, they thought, could crush beings so strong in force, so large in size. And they thought them infinitely happy, because they were never vexed with the fears of death, and likewise in their dreams they saw them do things strange and wonderful with ease, and without fatigue.

[1183] Besides, they observed the motions of the heavens were regular and certain, that the various seasons of the year came orderly about, but could discover nothing of the causes of these revolutions, and therefore they had this resort: they ascribed every thing to the power of the gods, and made every thing depend upon their will and command. The habitation and abode of these gods they placed in the heavens, for there they saw the sun and moon were rolled about; the moon, I say, they observed there, and the day and the night, and the stars serenely bright, and the blazing meteors wandering in the dark, the flying lightning, the clouds, the dew, the rain, the snow, the thunder, the hail, the dreadful noises, the threatenings and loud roarings of the sky.

[1194] Unhappy race of men! To ascribe such events, to charge the gods with such distracted rage. What sorrows have they brought upon themselves? What miseries upon us? What floods of tears have they entailed upon our posterity? Nor can there be any piety for a wretch with his head veiled, to be ever turning himself about towards a stone, to creep to every altar, to throw himself flat upon the ground, to spread his arms before the shrines of the gods, to sprinkle the altars abundantly with the blood of beasts, and to heap vows upon vows. To look upon things with an undisturbed mind, this is Piety.

[1204] For when we behold the celestial canopy of the great world, and the heavens spread over with the shining stars; when we reflect upon the courses of the sun and moon, then doubts – that before lay quiet under a load of other evils – begin to awake, and grow strong within us. What! Are there gods endued with so great power that can direct the various motions of all the bright luminaries above? For the ignorance of causes gives great uneasiness to the doubting mind of man. And hence we doubt whether the world had a beginning, and shall ever have an end; how long the heavens (the walls of this world) shall be able to bear the fatigue of such mighty motions, or whether they are made eternal by the gods, and so shall forever roll on, and despise the strong power of devouring age.

[1218] Besides, what heart does not faint with a dread of the gods? Whose are the limbs that will not shrink, when the scorched earth quakes with the horrible stroke of lightning, and the roaring thunder scours over the whole heavens? Do not the people and the nations shake? And proud tyrants, struck with fear of those avenging powers, tremble every limb, lest the dismal day were come to punish them for the baseness of their crimes and the arrogance of their speeches?

Munro 1886

[1151] Thence fear of punishment mars the prizes of life; for violence and wrong enclose all who commit them in their meshes and do mostly recoil on him from whom they began; and it is not easy for him who by his deeds transgresses the terms of the public peace to pass a tranquil and a peaceful existence. For though he eludes God and man, yet he cannot but feel a misgiving that his secret can be kept for ever; seeing that many by speaking in their dreams or in the wanderings of disease have often we are told betrayed themselves and have disclosed their hidden deeds of evil and their sins.

[1161] And now what cause has spread over great nations the worship of the divinities of the gods and filled towns with altars and led to the performance of stated sacred rites, rites now in fashion on solemn occasions and in solemn places, from which even now, is implanted in mortals a shuddering awe which raises new temples of the gods over the whole earth and prompts men to crowd them on festive days, all this it is not so difficult to explain in words.

[1169] Even then in sooth the races of mortal men would see in waking mind glorious forms, would see them in sleep of yet more marvelous size of body. To these then they would attribute sense, because they seemed to move their limbs and to utter lofty words suitable to their glorious aspect and surpassing powers. And they would give them life everlasting, because their face would ever appear before them and their form abide; yes and yet without all this, because they would not believe that beings possessed of such powers could lightly be overcome by any force. And they would believe them to be preeminent in bliss, because none of them was ever troubled with the fear of death, and because at the same time in sleep they would see them perform many miracles, yet feel on their part no fatigue from the effort.

[1183] Again they would see the system of heaven and the different seasons of the years come round in regular succession, and could not find out by what causes this was done; therefore they would seek a refuge in handing over all things to the gods and supposing all things to be guided by their nod. And they placed in heaven the abodes and realms of the gods, because night and moon are seen to roll through heaven, moon day and night and night’s austere constellations and night-wandering meteors of the sky and flying bodies of flame, clouds, sun, rains, snow, winds, lightnings, hail, and rapid rumblings and loud threatful thunderclaps.

[1194] O hapless race of men, when that they charged the gods with such acts and coupled with them bitter wrath! What groanings did they then beget for themselves, what wounds for us, what tears for our children’s children! No act is it of piety to be often seen with veiled head to turn to a stone and approach every altar and fall prostrate on the ground and spread out the palms before the statues of the gods and sprinkle the altars with much blood of beasts and link vow on to vow, but rather to be able to look on all things with a mind at peace.

[1204] For when we turn our gaze on the heavenly quarters of the great upper world and ether fast above the glittering stars, and direct our thoughts to the courses of the sun and moon, then into our breasts burdened with other ills that fear as well begins to exalt its reawakened head, the fear that we may haply find the power of the gods to be unlimited, able to wheel the bright stars in their varied motion; for lack of power to solve the question troubles the mind with doubts, whether there was ever a birth-time of the world, and whether likewise there is to be any end; how far the walls of the world can endure this strain of restless motion; or whether gifted by the grace of the gods with an everlasting existence they may glide on through a never-ending tract of time and defy the strong powers of immeasurable ages.

[1218] Again, who is there whose mind does not shrink into itself with fear of the gods, whose limbs do not cower in terror, when the parched earth rocks with the appalling thunderstroke and rattlings run through the great heaven? Do not peoples and nations quake, and proud monarchs shrink into themselves smitten with fear of the gods, lest for any foul transgression or overweening word the heavy time of reckoning has arrived at its fulness?

Bailey 1921

[1151] Thence fear of punishment taints the prizes of life. For violence and hurt tangle every man in their toils, and for the most part fall on the head of him, from whom they had their rise, nor is it easy for one who by his act breaks the common pact of peace to lead a calm and quiet life. For though he be unnoticed of the race of gods and men, yet he must needs mistrust that his secret will be kept for ever; nay indeed, many by speaking in their sleep or raving in fever have often, so ’tis said, betrayed themselves, and brought to light misdeeds long hidden.

[1161] Next, what cause spread abroad the divine powers of the gods among great nations, and filled cities with altars, and taught men to undertake sacred rites at yearly festivals, rites which are honoured to-day in great empires and at great places; whence even now there is implanted in mortals a shuddering dread, which raises new shrines of the gods over all the world, and constrains men to throng them on the holy days; of all this it is not hard to give account in words.

[1169] For indeed already the races of mortals used to perceive the glorious shapes of the gods with waking mind, and all the more in sleep with wondrous bulk of body. To these then they would assign sense because they were seen to move their limbs, and to utter haughty sounds befitting their noble mien and ample strength. And they gave them everlasting life because their images came in constant stream and the form remained unchanged, and indeed above all because they thought that those endowed with such strength could not readily be vanquished by any force. They thought that they far excelled in happiness, because the fear of death never harassed any of them, and at the same time because in sleep they saw them accomplish many marvels, yet themselves not undergo any toil.

[1183] Moreover, they beheld the workings of the sky in due order, and the diverse seasons of the year come round, nor could they learn by what causes that was brought about. And so they made it their refuge to lay all to the charge of the gods, and to suppose that all was guided by their will. And they placed the abodes and quarters of the gods in the sky, because through the sky night and the moon are seen to roll on their way, moon, day and night, and the stern signs of night, and the torches of heaven that rove through the night, and the flying flames, clouds, sunlight, rain, snow, winds, lightning, hail, and the rapid roar and mighty murmurings of heaven’s threats.

[1194] Ah! unhappy race of men, when it has assigned such acts to the gods and joined therewith bitter anger! what groaning did they then beget for themselves, what sores for us, what tears for our children to come! Nor is it piety at all to be seen often with veiled head turning towards a stone, and to draw near to every altar, no, nor to lie prostrate on the ground with outstretched palms before the shrines of the gods, nor to sprinkle the altars with the streaming blood of beasts, nor to link vow to vow, but rather to be able to contemplate all things with a mind at rest.

[1204] For indeed when we look up at the heavenly quarters of the great world, and the firm-set ether above the twinkling stars, and it comes to our mind to think of the journeyings of sun and moon, then into our hearts weighed down with other ills, this misgiving too begins to raise up its wakened head, that there may be perchance some immeasurable power of the gods over us, which whirls on the bright stars in their diverse motions. For lack of reasoning assails our mind with doubt, whether there was any creation and beginning of the world, and again whether there is an end, until which the walls of the world may be able to endure this weariness of restless motion, or whether gifted by the gods’ will with an everlasting being they may be able to glide on down the everlasting groove of time, and set at naught the mighty strength of measureless time.

[1218] Moreover, whose heart does not shrink with terror of the gods, whose limbs do not crouch in fear, when the parched earth trembles beneath the awful stroke of lightning and rumblings run across the great sky? Do not the peoples and nations’ tremble, and proud kings shrink in every limb, thrilled with the fear of the gods, lest for some foul crime or haughty word the heavy time of retribution be ripe?